Not a lot of news over here where my brain hangs out. We're in one of those "lulls" between R discussions where we both get complacent or afraid or something. Maybe all the above.

One piece of potentially big news, though. My W had an IC appointment today. Possibly the first since July. She had emailed her IC about the codependency posts I forwarded to her recently (gadzooks, I can't even remember when that was - a couple months ago?? just a few weeks?), and maybe this is in response to that, but I don't know. I was starting to get worried that I was in for something "bad" afterwards, because she hadn't called me to say "hi", but then just as my paranoia was chewing on my ability to think, she called about the house. No R talk, just dealings with the contractor. But she seemed cheerful overall.

Don't know why I'm even starting a new thread about this...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
♥Qfwfq

<small>[ April 14, 2003, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Don't know why I'm even starting a new thread about this...

'Cause all your friends were wondering how you were doing and you sensed it and responded.

SS

SS:

You mean I'm clairvoyant? I'm not. That was a gal in Rick O'Shay comics, wasn't it?

-Qfwfq

Q,
I can't remember, but then I'm almost as old as you are, so................

SS

Q,

How did it come up that she told you about the IC? I'm impressed on two accounts. One she took the action and went after so long. And 2 she told you about it!!

I think this is the greatest. Any willingness on her part to work on "her stuff" if great news for your marriage!!! Worth starting a thread about!! CSue

CSue:

I overheard her telling our D that she had an apt today. Last week or so, she had said to me that our son was having problems at school, and so he has a C there. So, this morning, when she told me she had a C appointment, I had to ask her if it was his C she was going to see, and she said that it was her IC. That was all.

I'd like to think it's good news, too.

-Qfwfq

Well, she didn't say anything about the IC session. I'm okay with that. She was pleasant, though very tired, when we got home (I met her after class to pick up a new bedframe for our son, and we went to dinner after that, so we didn't get home till after 8 or so).

This am she was okay, until she was getting ready to leave. Then, she complained that "nobody does anything around here", even though I had told her to go ahead and go to work and I'd do the dishes before I left.

I had started reading more of Schnarch's "Passionate M" book, about the two-choice dilemma, and picked it up again just after she left. Now I'm starting to wonder if there's a way I can break through this ice and tell her when I feel hurt by remarks like the one above, or even tell her that I HATE them, and that aspect of her personality.

Since I had left Baer's book down in my garage yesterday, I decided to pick up Passionate M again. It's written by a sex therapist, so much of the book is about working on sexual problems in M, and I was getting bogged down in those chapters that focused on that when I last read it last fall (that was not quite the least of our problems at that time). So, this time, I decided to jump straight to section 3 "Observations on the Process". I've read about 2/3 of the "two choice dilemma" section, and it's really fascinating to me.

All these M books get "to me" to some degree, but at the same time all have failed to an extent to make sense to me in another area, particularly jargon.

♠(remember, I'm a quantitative scientist, though JL may beg to differ - JL's kind of scientist would answer the question "What's 2+2?" with "2+2=4.0000", whereas I would anser it with "3<=2+2<=5". Both answers are accurate, but JL's would be more precise!)

For example, I get a lot out of a Barry Long article that SC pointed me to yesterday about the Mask: www.iloveulove.com/yourmask.htm but am a little put off by his definition of "personality" which differs markedly from the dictionary definition. Not that I won't be able to identify with his meaning or even understand and accept his definition. Just that it makes it harder to progress through the rest of the article and internalize it fully.

Same is true of PM, and even Baer, though Baer repeats himself so much and states his concepts so simply, for the most part, that it isn't a problem for long. PM is really hitting home with me right now, though. My W almost fits the "Audrey" character in the two-choice dilemma to a T, though I don't think I fit the "Peter" character all that well (but I do sound like him in many aspects that are pertinent to Schnarch's example).

It's funny, but I'm almost "relieved" to see that Schnarch finally does talk a little about affairs in this section of the book. I had thought he avoided them, and was disappointed because I was so focused on that particular elephant when I read it last (okay, SS, I'm STILL focused on that, but to much less a degree!). I have no idea whether he discusses them in previous sections, though, because I skipped from the "differentiation" stuff to section 3.

It's a sometimes very complex book, with a lot of subtle concepts in it, and there's surprisingly little repetition (so far as I've seen that is), but it looks like it's going to be helpful to me.

I liked this quote about affairs, though I can't figure out why, as it doesn't say anything that we all didn't already know: "Spouses often try to avoid marriage's force choices by usurping their partner's options. A clandestine affair can be understood as an attempt to steal a partner's choice for monogamy. The adulterer wants it both ways: to have sex with someone else and still be married to the spouse. It's like saying, "I want this other person and I want you. If I tell you abou the affair, you might choose to leave. To hell with what you want - to be in a monogamous relationship. I get both choices and you get none. That's because I love you and don't want to give you up!" Granted, the other spouse might not want to have sex at all. But that doesn't remove the dilemma; it just means neither really wants to choose."

There's a lot more about monogamy that I found enlightening, compared to other authors' definitions of it. But I have to shut this puppy down and head off to work now, so I'll have to save it for another time.

♥Qfwfq

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Q-

I've missed you!

No news is GOOD news I guess....

Glad to see her making appointments. She needs to be ready and it sounds like she is putting her Big toe in the pool...

You've reached something in her and now that you have, it can NEVER go away. She has an awareness that wasn't there before...give her time.

~Q~

PM book is one I occasionally pick up to re-read a chapter .... and I *understand* something I did not "see" the first time. >"ah__ha!"< It is one of those books that can be given a second, third, and more readings with different results each time. I am feeling very "reptilian" lately, and, I plan to re-read that chapter very soon.

Pepper

kily:

Good to hear from you, too! I hope you're right. I've been feeling "detachment" or "differentiation" taking hold of me lately, and I won't pretend to always understand it's "effect" and what that means about our M (such as it is, until we 'fix' it, if we can). But the good news, I guess, is that I'm less bothered by her inactions as I perceive them than I was just a few months ago. She ranks her "work integrity" higher than her personal integrity, I realized this morning as I was reading Schnarch's discussion about monogamy and integrity. She betrayed herself, by having an A, more than she betrayed me. Or "more importantly than that she betrayed me" to put it better.

Pepper:

I feel the same way about most of the books I read, with the exception of the Harley and Baer books - those are pretty straightforward. But Schnarch has a lot more to it, and it grabs me in different ways every time I read it. Barry Long's articles, that SC has posted to our website (though he has one of his own), are like that too.

Regarding my W's generalizations, like the "nobody does anything" remark this morning: I've got to learn how to "call bull$h!+" in a loving way! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> At least, I've got to call it, instead of just allowing remarks like that to ruin my days for all of eternity.

-ol' Qfwfq

Well, I gotta give my W a bit more slack. She just called me, almost in tears, because of a heated discussion at work about schedules and costs. To make a long story short, I realize more now just how much stress she is under at work, so I'm going to give her a little more leeway because of that. I won't quit growing, of course, or trying to help her grow if she asks, but just show a little more empathy.

I guess I did help cheer her up talking to her, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-ol' Qfwfq

Funny you should mention this Q...

Probably 2 weeks ago or less, I too pulled out my copy of PM.

In recovery, hubby read the entire book. I struggled with it and read bits and pieces here and there...very difficult reading then <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

This time is entirely different. I am enjoying reading it and wondering where *I* was when I tried to read it before.

I find that there are several select books I go back to and glean new information each time. (Then I stop and wonder if it is just old age and I am forgetting... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Susan

PS...I wish Pepper would explain that "reptilian" feeling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Is that a good or bad thing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Susan:

I remember Schnarch mentioning the reptilian mind in the section I read this morning.

...but I will probably forget by tonight! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' whatsizname. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Oh, ok. I was reading just now maybe I just haven't gotten that far. I'm showing my ignorance here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Back to my book. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Susan

Now where did I put my book...where did I put my reading glasses.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

This morning, my W was talking about all the frustrations at work. Her boss is being pressured, and passing that on to her... that kind of thing. At one point she said: "I find myself having to detach from it personally, not take the criticism as an attack... know what I mean?" I said, "sure, I know exactly what you mean" looking her right in the eyes and feeling truly sincere. I could have been sarcastic and said something like "I was just reading about the same thing! Been working on it and being told that I need to detach for MONTHS now, it's bound to sink in!" But I didn't. Sarcasm will get me nowhere. But I think she knows.

This morning, I continued reading PM, about "holding onto yourself", "self-confrontation" and the like. I was amazed, when reading Schnarch's analogy with his backpacking experiences. I did that kind of thing back when I was a teenager! The self-confrontation and holding onto one's self things. I can remember all the things he describes about hiking with someone with a different pace. It's very easy to feel "left behind" or not cared about, and all too easy to resent others when you feel like forging ahead... But it accomplishes nothing but building resentment. And so, I'd focus on empathy and self-confrontation, and we'd invariably have a much better time of it. Not that I was successful all the time, or even most of the time - I wasn't. And it was refreshing to hear that Schnarch isn't always successful even now.

Heck, my W and I even backpacked together for several years, before the kids were born (and when they grew, they never took an interest in it), though for us it was the Grand Canyon (aka Golly Gully), rather than the mountains, for the most part.

What I find amazing about reading this section of PM is how much of it I already knew and applied in my life without realizing it... ...up until I became an "adult", that is. I wonder why that is? Is it familarity and comfort? Is it fear of change? Probably. And that fear builds until it seem insurmountable. And then a crisis occurs to wake us up, and we do all this internal reflection stuff.

Life is a weird place!
-Qfwfq

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Life is a weird place!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes it is Q, but isn't it wonderful?

Isn't is amazing to look back and see how far we have come? I think you are doing so well!

This PM book is great. I read it late into the night last night while hubby was snoring away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I read much of it a couple of years back, but I was in a different place, reading with a totally different filter.

It is about so much more than sex!!! Everyone here at MB should read it!

Susan

All I can say it is so hard to be married now a days!!!

And good luck and hope all goes well. I am not one to give advice to anyone right now.

I agree with Susan about life being wonderful.

My grandmother used to be fond of saying: "It's great to be alive!!!"

This was when I was a teen, and I thought she was crazy. Being a teen is hard.

Now, if I think about it, by golly, she was right! There is lots of bad stuff to cope with, but I am glad to be alive, and there is much good in my life.

Q, I am glad you are reading, and getting something from it. I hope you are helping her cope with the stress by helping her every way you can. When my W is stressed, she likes non sexual affection like foot rubs, and back rubs. I tell her right up front that I want to give NSA so that wondering what I want doesn't add the the stress she is already experiancing. Sometimes I can quiz her about what other things she has to do, and take some of them off her hands for an evening. She is often very, very grateful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I suspect you already do this, but you know how I tend to go on and on sometimes.............

I can tell there are more men in your department than women, you do a lot more work with mars than venus.

Ha, Ha, I know there are reasons, but I like to tease you.

SS

SS:

I agree with Susan that life IS wonderful. Not even just "can be." My W doesn't, however. She's getting better, though.

In the months after D-day, her favorite song, from Concrete Blonde, had this line in it that she "loved"

"Life is beautiful, and terrible, and strange."

At the time, I took even things like that personally. I don't now. And some of it's true. But a lot of the music on the charts these days is so full of pessimism that it makes me hurl. I remember once telling her that "I think you're a pessimistic fatalist" and she agreed that that was probably a reasonable description. That was almost a year ago, and I try not to make judgements like that anymore, even if she agrees with them.

SS, I do things like backrubs and footrubs all the time. But I haven't asked her for NSA before. I think I will. Most of the times snuggling while watching the lobotomy box have been comfy these days. Usually, she falls asleep pretty quickly. It's hard to keep her awake after about 8:30, and she's probably been averaging something like 9 or 10 hours a night of sleep.

My biggest problem, like with SF lately, is that even if I ask her whether she's interested in it or not, I don't get an answer. Nothing. Or if I initiate, EVEN if she becomes interested, I can only tell because she doesn't stop me. So, I'm currently not all that interested, but I will make sure that I don't appear to be witholding from her viewpoint either.

In spite of that, we're getting along okay, and I like that. Doing stuff with the house is always rewarding. Going to swap meets is fun, too. Simple stuff.

-Qfwfq