BTW I am begginning to feel your husband's actions sexually are aimed at reducing from a person he loved to an object he can use.

In a sick sort of way this gives a sense of power over you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thirdly thanks to reading your posts Jen I have come to recognize the pain my actions cause the one I love.

In contrast it seems to me your husband is becoming more of the person he really is. He has gone from somewhat controlling/manipulative to outright controlling and manipulative.

Some of this no doubt is a result of the anger side of your affair. Some even as payback for the pain you caused him. But based on what you have posted over the last several weeks it looks like he is really showing his inner self </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm glad my drama could be of some use to you!! It's not all for nothing then.

Your post (and specifically your suggestion that my A has perhaps brought my H's true nature to the surface) makes me think of another famous quote, but I may not have the words right: "The way people behave under pressure reveals their true nature."?

Jen

Jen-

I started a great post to you and I erased it!!!! I HATE when that happens...

Anyway, I wanted to let you know that when I read your threads, I see ME! The situations are different, the circumastances were different, but in the end it all translates into the same thing.

You are being victimized. Worse, You are allowing that to happen to yourself because in your mind, if you are just a "little bit better" than you used to be, H will love you again and rush back into your arms. How do I know this, I think this way too.

You described PRE-A Hubby:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1) I could've done without my H having female colleagues for close friends too, but my solution to this was to just about always be around if he spent time with them.
2) He has always been somewhat controlling or emotionally manipulative though, but not all of the time. I do know that I found myself feeling like I was always the one at fault, and I was always the one apologizing, etc.
3) His family always came ahead of my family.
4) He also off and on would get really mad at me for not being as "domestic" as he'd like me to be. I'm just not as tidy a person as he is. I could live with dishes in the sink for a few hours, I could live with a full hamper of laundry for a few days, I could live with a pile of newspapers laying around for a while, etc. He couldn't.
5) We were spending more and more time out drinking with our friends (a group that included his 2 female buddies and OM) and less and less time alone together. (Although, to be fair, this followed the great stress of his mom going through breast cancer surgery.)
6) Sometimes I felt like me talking to my H was becoming more of an irritation than something he welcomed. He made jokes about me being more beautiful when I was quiet.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I had posted this and you read it, WHAT would YOU think about X's actions? I ask this, because you described him 90%.

You will not "SEE" it until you are ready so no amount of preaching will get you to change. I only want you to know that you are not STUPID, CRAZY, WRONG, BAD, or anything of the sort. You are a remorseful person that is trying their hardest to make up for past mistakes. You feel guilty, and that guilt is what is holding you as a victim.

Many have told you that your husband has you right where he wants you. They are dead on. The problem with this is that it's killing you because you want something from him that he will not give you.

You have TWO options:

1. Continue to accept the SCRAPS that he keeps throwing your way. Continue to BELIEVE what he tells you - that YOU are the unworthy person.

or

2. Send that plan B letter.

Jen,

Please have faith. Your Husband is the one with MAJOR issues. You have them too, but YOU are being responsible and dealing with them. If you send this letter, and reach a place where the idea of the loss of your H hurts, but doesn't cripple you, You will start to see changes that you never thought possible...

Don't keep yourself down anymore, it's time to forgive yourself and to live again.

By the way, THANK YOU for sharing your story, it has allowed me to get one step closer to closure.

Kily and Stunned Dad are right on. I think that Stunned Dad helped me to see that I am really a more loving person than once thought. Pre-A I was angry and impatient and I feel like now I am doing much better- much more of a compassionate, patient, non-judgmental person. And I will take that anytime. Why waste an experience that might be one of the worst in your life, to turn into a crappy person instead of learning from it and growing?! The best thing that has happened through this mess for me is that I have changed. I like me a lot more, I love God a lot more because it is relationship and not religion- there is NOTHING i can do to earn his love, and because I see now that people who don't love me, for me, are not truly on my side, and out for my well being. And I can accept that, without having to lose myself because of it. Jen, your H is not out for your well being right now. Take care of yourself- release yourself from that prison of guilt- and for once in a LONG time- go have fun this weekend!!!! Try Plan B if you are up to it.

Jen,
If you want me to send you this cd email me your address-if not that is ok too. I just thought it might help you- it was awesome- even if you never go to church- this pastor is definitely different and helpful- talks of how you should release yourself from the past.......

adgirl-

Can I get a copy?

Kily_MB@hotmail.com

jen,

from a person who went back many times after I swore I wouldn't...

The first time you walked down that street, you fell in a hole and had a h*ll of a time getting out...the second time you walked down that street, you fell part way in a hole, but got out alot quicker. The third time you walked down that street, you saw a hole and stepped around it...and the last time, well, you just didn't go down that street at all.

Jen,
I have tried to follow this thread as best I can, but there's many replies in a short time.

I hesitated to even say what I 'm going to say, as I don't even like bringing up this person. But Jen, your husband sounds so much like the OM I was involved with for years, it is unreal.

I can understand how he manipulated into going to his place that night, he's a master at it. He plays you like a fiddle, right? The domineering, controlling ways...OM to a tee.

OM and I played these sorts of games all of the time. It was awful for me. I think if you've never been in a R like this, it's impossible to know what it's like.

Plan B is the only way, or you'll be a prisoner to the manipulation.

One piece of advice to you. DOn't think that your entire future with him hinges on ONE NIGHT, and if you go there or not. THis is what ..isn't it..what psychologists call 'magical thinking'. If he loves you, he can stand one night of rejection from you. If he loves you so little that he can't take it, then who needs him?

I've been hoping to reconcile with my now exhusband since last August, in a serious fashion...and longer before that,he knew I had interest. He has rejected me continually. Does that stop my love for him? No, it doesn't. So please don't think if you don't go that 'one night', it's done forever. What kind of love is that. You deserve so much more than this man, in my opinion.

Jen, there's a cute phrase I say to people, when they're overly dramatic. The phrase is, "Save the drama, for Mama!" I only say that to you now as you yourself talk of your drama. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Don't you get tired of it?

BTW, did you do the homework assignment I gave you awhile back? Is that list of 'cons' on the refrigerator, or somewhere hidden for you to study from time to time? Just a thought, GF.
Take care,
H_P

kily -Thanks for YOUR post, to let me know I'm not nuts, that someone else has felt like me. I know, I know, Plan B sounds smart to me again. Maybe next week when I have time to "craft" a letter.

adgirl - check your email!

TheStudent - That's an encouraging analogy, thanks!

Hopeful_Person - Your preference for plan B for me is noted. Yes, I did that homework, I ended up with quite a list of things. Funny thing is that in the list of things he's done to hurt me, there are many things on that list that he did, perhaps not with the intention of hurting me, but that certainly did.

You said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B is the only way, or you'll be a prisoner to the manipulation.

One piece of advice to you. DOn't think that your entire future with him hinges on ONE NIGHT, and if you go there or not. THis is what ..isn't it..what psychologists call 'magical thinking'. If he loves you, he can stand one night of rejection from you. If he loves you so little that he can't take it, then who needs him? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good point. If one night or one phone call gone bad is enough to give up on me, then let him give up on me. That, and I've had about 11 months of separation, with him treating me poorly throughout. Why would he change now?

I was just leafing through some old MB posts I had printed from last summer. First of all, I traced back what led up to me moving out. He DID tell me he wanted me out. I didn't suggest it, he told me HE wanted me out. But I chose to go rather than continuing to live with him treating me so poorly, and with no commitment to working on the M. Second, I found a highlighted quote made by findingmywayback. Reading it today, it is a sheer statement of brilliance: "He is used to having control of you. I imagine he doesn't want you back if he feels he can't control you."

I fear he's going to call tonight, b/c that card I mailed is likely there by now. I plan not to answer I guess.

Thanks for your continued effort to make me wake up folks. I am very thankful for you all!

Jen

He may say I don't know how to love him, but I know him pretty well. As predicted, he phoned me late last night, 2x on house phone 1x on cell phone, and I did NOT answer at all.

I think he's going to go insane this weekend without me here to dump on, harass, and to try to make me feel like dirt again.

I guess if he and I talk next week and he asks where I was I have to be honest with him? And he will tell me my priorities are screwed up for going away, even though we had no plans, he will firmly believe his personal punching bag should be ready and waiting for him.

This little weekend trip may end our marriage, but it's better than being here and being dumped on.

Jen

Jen

It is not your weekend trip that will end your M. It is your H's behaviour and unwillingness to address his issues that will end your M. Well, no, it takes two to make or break a M, but you have been addressing your issues and working hard to resolve the problems that led to your A.

Going away for the weekend is the wise thing to do. Do you want to sit waiting for his drunken abusive phone calls, and the guilt to start welling up again, and then the should I run to him for SF or not situation?

I feel so very sorry for your H being so destructive. I hope he wakes up one day and starts to look inside himself for some answers rather than to continue to lash out at you, or when you move on, the poor person that comes along to fill your shoes. Jen, I truly believe if I had not been in Plan B, my situaiton would be very similar to yours (perhaps without the alcohol). I don't know how much more you can take dear girl.

Enjoy your weekend, have fun, and do not worry about what H is or isn't doing. You'll find out soon enough.

Wishing you well from London.

Lisa

Jen I hope you enjoy your weekend and return to us stronger than ever. Whatever you decide, know that what you have done since d-day, is what most of us, FBS, would have dreamed our WS had done. I have no doubt that in the end, you're going to find happiness one way or another. You deserve it kiddo.

<small>[ May 02, 2003, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Thanks Lisa and TMCM. I really needed some encouragement like that.

It is sad how afraid I am of my H, afraid of upsetting him. I still catch myself worrying what his reaction will be to my not being here for him to use as a punching bag.

It's funny, that old quote from an August MB post keeps ringing in my mind: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "He is used to having control of you. I imagine he doesn't want you back if he feels he can't control you." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He doesn't want me back to have someone to love, honour, cherish and enjoy time with. He wants me back IF he can control me, otherwise he probably figures he may as well look for someone else. Maybe he feels such an intense need to have me completely under control b/c he is fearful of me being unfaithful again, that would make sense, but it still isn't healthy to live that way.

Well, time to go to work. I'll check in here again before I leave this evening.

Jen:)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>He may say I don't know how to love him, but I know him pretty well. As predicted, he phoned me late last night, 2x on house phone 1x on cell phone, and I did NOT answer at all.

I think he's going to go insane this weekend without me here to dump on, harass, and to try to make me feel like dirt again.

I guess if he and I talk next week and he asks where I was I have to be honest with him? And he will tell me my priorities are screwed up for going away, even though we had no plans, he will firmly believe his personal punching bag should be ready and waiting for him.

This little weekend trip may end our marriage, but it's better than being here and being dumped on.

Jen</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good for you not answering. And if he and you talk next week....well if you were in Plan B you wouldn't have to talk. And maybe after this weekend, a breather, a relaxer, you can have the strength to go to Plan B. But if you don't, then just be strong and set your boundaries and tell him you went skiing with a friend to have SOME FUN!!!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong>Jen I hope you enjoy your weekend and return to us stronger than ever. Whatever you decide, know that what you have done since d-day, is what most of us, FBS, would have dreamed our WS had done. I have no doubt that in the end, you're going to find happiness one way or another. You deserve it kiddo.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM is right in that I would give anything for my ex-WH to have worked as hard as you have. The shoe goes on the other foot too though- without meaning to sound arrogant or conceited in any way, I know that some WS would give anything to have a BS like me and many others here who would do anything even after the A to save the marriage. The moral of this story is- some people just don't "get it" and sometimes they will wake up and sometimes they will just keep sleepwalking and wasting their life away. Sad but true. You know the saying "You don't know what you've got til it's gone" - well I think some people are so thick skulled and foggy they still don't get it then. Your H may be one of them.

JMHO,

Even though you say that you KNOW your WS will turn down an invitation out for his Birthday..I suggest that you ask him anyway. Ask so that it eases your mind that YOU made an attempt...and so that you KNOW exactly how you rank on his list.

One of the things that always upset me was when people would tell me that they KNEW how I was going to respond without giving me the chance to respond. Give him his chance. Make sure that he understands that you want to take him out in a "public" arena for time to celebrate. He can never accuse you of not making mention of it or ignoring it. If he declines then take your trip away and rest assured that you tried. If he wants only a "secret" little get together, then you know where you still stand with him.

committed

Jen-

Time for a reality check here - GF YOU are being emotionally ABUSED! Take a GOOD hard look in the mirror girl...it's time to "see" the situation for what it REALLY is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He doesn't want me back to have someone to love, honour, cherish and enjoy time with. He wants me back IF he can control me, otherwise he probably figures he may as well look for someone else. Maybe he feels such an intense need to have me completely under control b/c he is fearful of me being unfaithful again, that would make sense, but it still isn't healthy to live that way.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THIS is completely WRONG!!! YOU are giving HIM too much credit and power. YOu still see this as HE is RIGHT and you are WRONG. GF this isn't the case!

Here is what I see...

Your H SET YOU UP! He wanted you to have an A so that HE could be free to do WHATEVER the hell he wanted to do without guilt. He's been having E/A's if not P/A's for SOME time...I believe that he was having one when he set you up for your fall. YES JEN- YOU HAVE BEEN MANIPULATED. Are you pi$$ed yet? You should be...if you are, ask WHY. Is it because what I'm saying is complete crap? OR does this hit on uncomfortable things that you don't want to feel?

Get ANGRY!!! Get REAL ANGRY...Do not act out on this anger. Feel it, process it, and start to heal.

Why does he want to CONTROL you? Not for the reasons you listed..the reason is, because his own life is SO out of control that he NEEDS you. If YOU slip away, HE has to face himself. Too much pain there...

Stop underestimating yourself. Start LISTENING to your feelings. He doesn't deserve you.

I disagree with committed. He has proved to you how he will react, time and time again. This is like a BS who keeps beating her head against the wall because she keeps trusting WS even though she knows he is lying (yep, did that) - your H's ACTIONS have shown how he will react. TIme and again. So change the cycle, quit beating yourself up and GO HAVE FUN!!!!

GO KILY!!!!!! I totally agree...one more thing, if he feels he has to control you bc you were unfaithful, then it would never be a marriage. I would not reconcile with my WH ever, unless I really thought that I would not spend my life making him pay for his mistakes. I don't want to be married to someone who feels his whole life like he owes me. Yes, trusting and respecting would take a while to achieve, but why bother trying if you are only going to resent that person forever?
Make sense or am I rambling?

I beleive I posted this before but I beleive it's importance can never be underestimated (like most of Dr Harley's words):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Using resentment as a way to control and punish a spouse.

I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument.

By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her.

What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.

I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."

My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him.

Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness. There are many unpleasant thoughts that have this characteristic, and I have helped many people let them go by helping them destroy the usefulness of the thought. Making sure that S.K.'s husband never gets what he wants by bringing up her affair will help him overcome his resentment. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does this article ring a bell with you Jen?