Dear All

I haven't posted in a while about me, mainly because things are going along well personally, and other than waiting for the DV date, there is not much new to add. My recovery becomes easier as time goes by, and I feel strong and relatively happy with my lot.

I had a couple of e-mail communications from H this week, and whilst some were quite controlling telling me what to do, and at times rather abrupt and rude, I didn't rise to anything. Ignored some things which I thought were none of his business, and gentley reminded him that I'm only trying to get things sorted out quickly and smoothly for both our sakes. I got an apology.

Anyway, last night I spoke to ESD, and she told me they were going to visit Granny at the weekend. It was always a bit of a family joke about only spending one night as she can drive us all a bit crazy, and when I said "Oh, that will be fun so long as she doesn't try and send you to bed at 9.00pm", it opened the door for a topic I didn't really expect - her Dad.

She told me many things, but in a nuthsell she said (and she was speaking for her sister too), that neither of them really enjoyed spending time with him, they did it because they feel sorry for him. The don't like his R with Shiney Head and are adamant they don't want to meet her "I have one Mum and that's fine and all I need, and I have one step-Mum and that's fine and that's all I need" was her actual comment. She told me that Dad is saying weird things to YSD about Shiney Head. She told me how resentful she is of Dad still because he went to Germany and "You would think that now he doesn't have a wife first in his life, he might put his children there rather than his girlfriend". She told me that if she is forced to meet Shiney Head, she intends to be rude and dismissive and "put her off", by saying things like "Are you my new Mummy" (she's 18, and her and her sis both have a real sense of hummour).

Well, in some ways ESD isn't a child technically (she's 18), she's going off round the world later in the year, but it still disturbed me this is how she feels about her Dad and the situation. I tried to address with myself whether I was upset that after 6 months this is where he's at - introducing OW to my girls (and they are my girls). But I realised that I hate that they feel like this about their Dad, what he's doing, and also that they don't want to be part of this.

Today, I thought about it hard, and thought I'd call YSD (now she is a child, she's 14). I told her I'd had a chat with her sis and if she wanted to talk to me she could. Well, what she said to me I found very disturbing. She confirmed more of the same but said H had a conversation with her about how would she feel if he moved in with someone else. He's also been pushing for her about would she like to meet Shiney Head. She told me that if she goes to visit H and Shiney Head is there, she will leave, she isn't interested. "Lis, she may well be a nice person, but I don't want her in my life, I don't want anything to do with her" was what she said. She told me "You know me and sis better than Dad does, you talk to us, you understand. You don't shout at us. You know what you did was wrong, but you admit it and we are both on your side". I told her that if she ever felt she was in a situation she didn't want to be, she should call me and I would collect her - I told her I know she has Mum, but she has me too. I told her I loved her very much, she told me she loved me very much too.

Am I loosing the plot, or is this completely unacceptable? This relationship which wasn't (according to my H) anything to do with the breakdown of our M, which has been going on for a matter of months is now at the point where he is possibly forcing OW on his children, not listening to them, planning to move in with her (which isn't a big surprise for a number of reasons), and he's still married, is it me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I realised after talking to YSD my primary concern IS their wellbeing. She is not happy about this situation. When I asked ESD what Mum thinks, apparently, Mum gets shouted down too, and has tried to broach things but gets nowhere. When ESD goes away, YSD won't have that extra layer.

Of course, I am also shocked and saddened by the speed at which H has moved on so quickly, and that I am completely disposable and someone else is right in there. Is that the case, he just doesn't care about me at all, or he is trying to find someone to replace me?

I also feel I should try and approach this subject, but should speak to the girls Mum first. What does anyone else think, given that H and I are barely communicating? He has to come round soon to collect his things from me -although he has given me a date a month in advance, which I believe is because that is the date he will be moving in with OW. I don't believe he can't possibly get to me before then, especially as I said to YSD (in all honesty because I thought it was the situation) "Oh yeah, Dad's really busy right now, going to Germany and stuff" and she said "No he isn't, he gave us the choice of 3 weekends to go up to see Granny".

OK, enough rambling, but I'm sorry this has really worried me for my girls and the indecent haste and crazyiness behind H's thinking.

Any all comments greatly appreciated as ever.

Lisa

<small>[ June 08, 2003, 04:10 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Just to let you know I read your post - gave you my thoughts when we talked this morning. As I said then, I think he is desperately trying to fill the void in his life - namely, your absence - that he created by his own stubborn behavior. I'll watch to see what our other MB friends think. Meanwhile, keep me posted about the e-mail.

BB

Lisa your H is not moving on, he is running away and using another person in the process to heal his wounded pride. Even though 'Shiney Head' is wrong for getting involved with your H, a married man, she is to be pitied for not realizing that she is being used by him. Oh well, she's made her bed and now she's going to have to sleep in it.

Isn't it amazing how many young people can be wiser than their parents? it's almost like they are being possesed by older spirits, really scary <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . You are very fortunate to have two girls who are not only wise beyond their years, but very loving people as well. They are truly your girls. Don't be surprised if they start being your matchmakers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"or he is trying to find someone to replace me?"

Here's how I see this .... your H is trying to find someone to replace himself.... he is looking for affirmation and external validation, because he is frightened and has an unstable self image. MLC. He may, in his subconscious, be running from his mortality!

How's THAT for analysis beyond my scope?? LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi all and thanks for your support.

Pep - you are right analysis way to deep for a simple soul like me to understand <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> No, I hear you and I think you are right. He's running from himself because he can't face his part in this whole sorry saga.

Hi Coffee Man and thanks for your thoughts. They are very wise kids, and I do believe that I have taught them as well as their Mum and Dad. It just makes me so worried (particularly for YSD) that he's trying to force this down their throats. If push came to shove, would YSD be able to stand up to him and say "No, I'm off, I don't want to meet her".

BB - thanks again everso. Quite a bit on my plate right now eh? I'll mail you next with a little more thought!.

So, what does anyone think actually about me addressing this with H (although of course first with the girls Mum)? Any thoughts on that?

Thanks again.
Lisa

Lisa-

To be honest, you will probably get the same treatment that I do. I think H will not be receptive to anything that you have to say at all. The last thing he wants is to be educated - especially by you. Even though your intentions are good, he will see it as a manipulation by you to hurt his "new" life.

Deal with the girls through their mom and in your own interactions. Eventually H will "Get" it, though it may take years....

I hope this helped.

Thanks Kily for your thoughts. I have tried to catch up on your thread, but with being away from my PC all day, working such long hours, you know what I mean!! Tomorrow yours is top of the list....

Yes, I think you are right that he would not be receptive to me, but I also think that I have nothing to loose anymore, and it really pains me that the girls feel so strongly about it, but can only articulate it to me and their Mum - not the person that they should be able to tell. I also feel that the girls still turn to me to help out with situations with Dad. In the past, I was always their sounding board for difficult or awkward situations, like when ESD got her first boyfriend. She told me and asked me to tell Dad. I believe that they think I may still hold some influence, and I guess I also don't want to disappoint them and let them down now - especially where Shiney Head is involved. It seems completely inappropriate to me. I also realised YSD was talking about a specific place that her Dad was saying about moving to - clearly he's moving in with her.

I do generally feel OK about the situation for myself. Yes, it is pretty hard, and as I say, the speed is breath-taking, but I'm angry that he is still lieing to me and most of all the way he is treating the girls.

Thank you again.

Lisa

I don't think it's your place, to say anything to H. As was mentioned already, he probably wouldn't take heed to your words anyways. If anything, he might just push the meeting all the more, in a sad attempt to prove himself "right" (which we no is not the case in introducing "shiney head").

Yes, it's a GREAT idea to talk to the girls' mum about the situation. Since SHE is the parent, ask her what she would like for YOU to do, to back up her position. It sounds like you and her will be the better co-parents to these girls... and your H will again, be the one who loses out in the end. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

It is so true, that your H just can't deal with himself, and that is why he's moving on with (and in with! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) his gf. Well.. that's where we all know it ends. This R is merely a rebound relationship. They'll have to find it out the hard way. And unfortunately, the girls are somewhat stuck in the whole mess.

And it's good to know that the reason you haven't been posting much lately is b/c you're moving on, and getting a life away from MB! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (I'm still not there yet... but working on it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ).

Karen

well, some people get it, some people dont. your soon to be ex doesnt - he is running head over heals into the next relationship, without having drawn the necessary lessons from the relationship with you.
it's a shame that the girls are suffering. but luckily, they are pretty grown up. watch out for the younger one though - she is still young. but, if he is certain about his choice of new partner, then the kids should accept this as his choice, rightly or wrongly. it's their dad after all.
take care lisa,
N

Hi All

Just back from a very long first day with my new contract - I am pleased it went well (I think I could have done better, and know what to do), but my customer was very happy. I have picked up a shed load more work in the next 2 months. It is just what I need to keep my busy during some of these difficult periods, and to get me out and about. I feel good about it all.

Nick, thanks for dropping by. I want to catch up on what you've said in your thread (Kily, didn't manage again today, but will before the end of weekend <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). Know that I am thinking of you both. Nick, I don't know if H will ever get it. If you met him, you would see a very articulate intelligent and sympathetic man. It's a shame he can't use that to address his own situation. I do however worry that whilst you say the girls will have to accept, it is getting to the point where they are old enough NOT to do that, and he will loose them completely. You are right too about YSD needing a close eye. We are very close anyway, and I know she'll come to me whenever she wants. She spends a lot of time with a friend round the corner, so we're always near each other.

Hi Karen - I'm doing great!!! Not really a self imposed break, just all this fantastic work stuff mainly. I do sometimes find it hard to contribute to MB as sometimes (when you spend too much time here) it makes me feel sad/cross/angry when you read some stories, but I hope that in some way I can continue to contribute to MB. I will definitely speak to Mum - we actually have a good relationship. Again, I think this came about when H was away. We chat to each other, and she knows the girls and I are close. We have talked too about the A situation and H, and she is a great support to me. I think she finds it difficult to get through to him, as any of us do, and almost gives up with it. At least her and I are coming pretty much from the same place - I just think H would be absolutely mortified if he realised the depth of their feelings. He loves his girls immensely, it's just this damned fog thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Can you believe that we haven't even got a DV date yet, and he's making plans with her?!?!? It does upset me yes, but I find it quite shocking really.

Anyway, I hope you are doing well too. It takes time it does.

Thank you all again.

Lisa

Dear Lisa,

I mean this in all seriousness the best thing you can do is not approach H on this. Nor really try and discuss it with the girls either.

I say this because they clearly want you to be there for them. I guarantee if you try and discuss it with H then he will try and drive a wedge thru your R with those girls.

WS do not see the effect that they have on the children, maybe they do and are too selfish to do anything about it.

Yes he is making plans with her, of course he is, she is meeting his needs now (well for the timebeing at least) and so he sees now that he has to introduce the girls to her.

Of course this is often fraught with difficulty as you know in my sitch it is one of the primary causes for 2 x D not seeing xW. Yours are old enough to make their own minds up. In truth what I read here reminds me of my own daughters who are already distancing themselves from the parent that hurts them.

NJ

Hey Neil

Thanks everso for your thoughts. It is a strange situation to be in. But you know what, I don't think he could drive a wedge between us? They feel so strongly about his behaviour (not just around Shiney Head, but leaving them to go to Germany, not calling regularly etc.) and the support they get from me, they would see it straight off. One of them actually said to me "We're on your side Lis". I don't think they mean it quite like that, but it is about them not believing in what he is doing and believing in me and our R.

Whatever, I will very much err on the side of caution in dealing with this. I will speak to Mum when she comes back from her trip which I think is important. I can't ignore what they have told me.

Thanks for stopping by. I haven't been able to even get to e-mail or here at the moment I am so busy. I am away every night next week and won't have PC access which is a bit of a mare too. I hope you got on OK on Friday.

Thanks again all

Lisa

I've been away all week with work, so just a brief update.

Today I received the Decree Nisi date - 20th June, and 6 weeks 1 day later the Absolute will come through.

I spoke to ESD and Mum today. Mum said the girls hadn't mentioned much to her, so she would speak to YSD and then to H (I guess I should say STBX). She will tell him that if he moves in with OW then he will have to see YSD at her house or take them out on his own if that is what YSD wants. She was very supportive.

ESD also told me that Dad is going on holiday next week with OW and that at Granny's all he talked about was "My girlfriend this, that and the other". Even Granny said "I haven't seen him this happy in months" (but that doesn't surprise me as I think she is as flakey as him).

It has been a week of turmoil, for other reasons too which I am too tired to go in to.

I guess H seems to care less and less for his girls and me, well I'm completely out the window. It also angers me that he says he cannot pay any DV costs but has bought a car and now a holiday - well, my Solicitor has told me he will have to pay some costs. I have also spoken to my Solicitor about financial settlements. I think STBX will be very difficult.

Enough for now.

Lisa

Dear All

I wanted to expand a little on my last post.

STBX's holiday is to Greece. This was particularly hurtful, as Greece was our first holiday together, our honeymoon, and 2 anniversaries. We spent lots of time there, and he choose to go with her. I always used to book our holidays, and I wonder if she fills that role now. Granny's comments too were hurtful - how disposal our R's are to some people. She was also telling the girls they would have to meet Shiney Head even though they were saying they didn't want to. I think they were as upset with her, as they are with him. He didn't take them out at all when they were away, and now they see him going on holiday. Everything is coming to the front for them now. He doesn't call them regularly even. I hope their Mum will speak to him. I believe she will. It's funny those 2 things hurt more than getting the DV date. As my Solicitor said "Lisa, it's a process, a piece of paper, something you need to do now"

The other thing that was incredibly difficult for me this week was going to a place in the country where I went often to meet OM. I even had to stay at and run my event at the hotel where we spent several nights. Being so close geographically to where he works and lives (which is about 60/70 miles from me), stirred up many memories. I struggled with doing the right thing - not contacting him. I guess it was coupled with the upset of the girls, but I know you will all be pleased to know that I did the right thing. Irrespective of what is happening in his life, I realised that whilst my intentions to get in touch weren't about starting things up again (I really have learnt that much), it simply wasn't a viable option for me - my emotions in relation to him suddenly became too raw and open, and I felt vulnerable. It upset me that whilst I have learnt an awful lot, my feelings for him were still so strong, after nearly a year of not being in touch at all.

So, all in one week, I get my DV date, hear from my ESD's that my H is planning to move in with OW, going on holiday with her, forcing her on them etc. have to be spitting distance from OM, worked like a dog on my new project, and..... well, I came out of it the other side. I'm OK.

Physically, I'm absolutely exhausted, and mentally, well I guess I'm getting tougher than I realised.

I will also have to contact H about organising financial settlement. Now that he has finally provided his pension details, I can make an offer based on what my Solicitor has advised. I think H will be expecting much more, and this will be very hard to deal with. I am actually scared to see him, and I have to. I don't think it is something that can be dealt with via e-mail or text. My friend (who he respects and trusts) has said I can meet him at her house to protect myself from any angry outburts that may get out of hand. Can't do anything yet though as he is on holiday!!!!!!!!

Oh well, bit of a vent today, needed to get this all down. Thanks for reading if you are.

Lisa

Dear Lisa,

I just e-mailed you, and then came over here to check things out - I'm not surprised you are utterly exhausted, with all of this going on. Like I said in my e-mail, it may be that the relationship between STBX and his daughters is falling apart because he depended on you to do the work to maintain his contact with his daughters, while you were married. Without you in the equation, he isn't going to make the effort to have a meaningful relationship with them. That's very sad. But I think you did the right thing in contacting their mum - it is for her to lay down the law to him about their contact with OW and the terms of his contact with them in regards to the OW.

I can understand, after your past experiences with him, how anxious you must feel about having to meet him face-to-face to talk through anything to do with the divorce proceedings. Although it is a good idea to not meet with him alone, as you said, meet him at your girlfriend's place, is there any reason why you would not want to meet with him in the presence of your solicitor? This might be the safest. Just a thought. In any case, I don't think it at all wise to meet with him alone, and wish you could find a way to handle it through e-mails. Also, just to point out that, while your natural consideration for him feels that something this important should be handled face-to-face, with a face-to-face conversation, there is no hard evidence of agreement being reached. Communicating by e-mail would give you hard evidence (on paper) of any agreement you may reach, and, if he refuses to co-operate by e-mail, is obstructive, or abusive, you will also have that "evidence" to be able to present to the judge. My father has impressed upon me repeatedly the importance of getting evidence in writing, if you ever have to face a court. He has even told me I should go back and find and make copies of the letters I have written to H begging for reconciliation, to show that I have tried for reconciliation, if it should ever come before a court. I think it would be very unwise for you to come to any kind of verbal agreement with him that you don't have backed up in writing. Just an idea I thought I would throw out there.

I know you are so tired - on another thread, Redhat urged the poster of the benefits of a "breather" - he took a weekend away, and said the benefits got him through the next four months - maybe you could just go to one of those wonderful places where you bath in a tub of black mud and then they rub your whole body with rock salt and wrap you in huge white Turkish towels and prop you up with a tall glass of warm lemongrass tea while you listen to windchimes and sniff jasmine aromatherapy oil - just for the weekend - and get your feet soaked in a hot bath and a complete pedicure and choose some wonderful colour for your toenails. I know that would work wonders for me! Please...treat yourself to something special just for you - a pedicure, an aromatherapy massage, a facial, a new haircut - something where someone else pampers you - you need this, Lisa. Now's the time!

Take care,
LIR

My Dear LIR

I will respond to your e-mail directly a little later. I just got back from the gym and am going out with the girls for lunch so don't have much time!!!

I read your last paragraph and laughed out loud!!!! Yesterday, I treated myself to a facial, and it was fantastic!! I actually wish I could go back to Switzerland where I felt so very peaceful, and am glad I had that before the onslaught of this past week. It was so restful there - I really felt at peace. Given my work schedule over the next couple of weeks, I can't do much, but am hopeful of a weekend to Switzerland maybe in early July and then perhaps a weeks break come August.

The reason for dealing with H directly, well, we agreed that if at all possible that is what we would do. That was before his behaviour when we met before and his current situation and his current strange e-mails and texts he sends me. He talks as if he has swallowed a Dickensian novel "I am at the behest of..." "Thus it has not been possible to....". If I make this more formal to start with, I am frightened that he will fight against me, and that potentially we would both end up with less money (Solicitors fees, court costs etc.). Another reason to be in the presence of my friend is that she would witness any agreement we come to.

I will speak with my Solicitor tomorrow (who is more than willing to take a lead in any role I ask). I think I need to try and sort this directly with H because I still want to be fair. I will show him the amount the Solicitor has suggested and offer him considerably more than the lowest sum suggested (double in fact). I believe it is a fair sum and takes everything into account without me being guilty of anything. I actually think I am no longer prepared to subsidise him, particularly if he moves in with Shiney Head. If he is not willing to agree, I will tell him that we will have to take the matter to court and what that would entail - the possibility of considerably less for him, the costs involved and the lengthy timescales (could take 6 months for a date).

The problem with H is that whilst I am still trying to be reasonable, I haven't got a clue where he is in his life, but I doubt reasonable will spring to the front.......

Must run, but I will e-mail you directly this afternoon.

Lisa

Hi Lisa,

Just a though – his ‘formality’ is maybe a way how he can shield himself from his emotions. Similarly, you shouldn’t shy away from being ‘formal’ too – eg, acting through a solicitor or employ business-like language in your communications with him. It’s fair, cold and neutral – and you won’t get worked up.
You know Lisa, it’s just such a shame that your WH remains so clueless with regard to his emotions, emotional needs and his emotional state. He could learn so much now and there could even be hope for the two of you, but only if he learns about these concepts.
Where do you hang out in Switzerland usually?
Regards
N

Hi Nick and thanks for your thoughts. I agree he is shying away from his emotions, and this is seen by his interactions with his Ds.

I had lunch with them yesterday. On Thursday after I had told ESD about the DV, she texted her Dad and said "Were you going to tell us you were getting a DV or just move in with someone else?" His response was angry angry angry. So angry, that she wouldn't speak to him on the telephone and then Mum stepped in. She told him in no uncertain terms that he was in danger of loosing both his children by his behaviour and that neither of them were willing to accept his new R at this time. He shouted at her too to start with and said ESD was "rude and angry". Huuuum, I wonder why?????

He turned up to see them on Friday before his holiday and was "virtually in tears". He apologised and said it had been "too hard to talk about" and "happened so quickly" that he hadn't known what to do. He gave them each £20 (doesn't quite equate to a holiday but will ease his conscience a little). The girls are prepared to see how things pan out. He has said he is not moving in with Shiney Head and it is not serious - to my mind this does not equate. You don't go on holiday with someone you are having a casual R with and talk about moving in with them. I think he is now managing their expectations in the fear of what his behaviour was causing. As I said here, if he truly knew what affect he was having, he would be mortified. I wonder whether his actions will now meet his words. For their sake, I hope so.

I am concerned that we agreed to work together towards reaching a financial settlement, but of course things have changed so radically since then. I am not afraid to tell him that if we can't it will go to court and my Solicitor will become involved. The choice will then be his.

Yes, I believe he probably has not reflected on his part in our M. It was all my fault and that is where he will forever be stuck. And because of that, his current behaviour is acceptable because he is the injured party - he runs away from emotions because he can't deal with them. Like his girls - he probably found it hard to deal with a family situation which didn't involve me on a regular basis. But do you know what? I really don't think I could be with him anymore, and that makes me very sad. He isn't the person I once knew, and I don't know if I like the person he is now very much.....

My friends live in Leysin - do you know it?

When do you move, how are things? Let us have an update Nick and thanks for your concern.

Lisa

Hi Lisa

Yes, makes all perfect sense. Dont know if your H simply tells the girls what they want to hear (ie, that the relationship is not serious), or, is it that he *knows* it's all a bit fast and unreflected....? Give him the benefit of the doubt there.
Yes, I know Leysin of course. There's every year a great open air festival, sort of a Glastonbury in the alps. Ahhhhh, the lovely fresh mountain air.... London smog cant really compete with that!

Will post an update....
N