awhile ago i gave my husband a very detailed list of my needs and how to meet them. it was requested by him because i told him i was at the end and if he didnt start doing something i would have no choice but to ask him to leave. he took the list, did a few things and then just ignored it.

now please understand, my husband is loving and kind. doing stuff around the house-gardening and landscaping and such, but wont do the things i have asked for.

so my question to you guys is.... are these things too much to ask for, to hard to do, or what. am i asking for too much.

i am posting the list, and please keep in mind i dont expect this stuff everyday, just once in awhile. im at this for almost 2 yrs and still waiting. here goes...

1) HONESTY AND OPENNESS:

i would like you to be more open and honest with your feelings good and bad.

be more accountable for money. show receipts for spending.(has somewhat done this)

include me in investing and money spending decisions.

put my name on the savings account.(did this)

i would like you to tell me about your dad-you have never really told me about him.(his dad died when he was 8)

2)AFFECTION

leave me unexpected love notes. the pre-written ones we have are great.(he has done this once)

call and leave me romantic and sexy messages on my voicemail.

email me jokes or just to say i love you

flowers for no reason-(he has done this ok)

volunteer to rub my back

set up surprise dates-you do all the planning.(we have had 3-4 dates, that he initiated but didnt do the planning)

surprises-i need you to be more creative with your affection

verbalize what you love about me
compliment me-(he does this but not consistently)

3)ADMIRATION

recognition and gratitude for what i do-(he is ok here)

verbalize to me how strong i've been

be proud of me

4)CONVERSATION

ask more about me
set aside specific time to talk about any issues
set a time limit on certain conversation-1 hour
use the conversation question book-maybe once a week-(a book i bought to get us talking,ex.favorite color?)
share any emotions you have with me-good or bad
tell me about your history

5)SEXUAL FULLFILLMENT

i need to feel desirable, courted
i want to use the romantic nights book i got-this book allways leads to sex and fun things.
i want to use the sex coupons we got-both of us
i want not only romance, but fun too. secret meetings, luch rondevous, etc...

6)RECREATIONAL COMPANIONSHIP

ANYTHING!!LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

THANK YOU FOR READING ALL THIS. i know it was long. i have been at it and cant seem to get what i consider basic needs met. any ideas from the guys will be greatly appreciated!

Hi nikko:

I don't know if my response here will be of much help. My W was the WS, I am the BS. Initially, all I wanted 2 do (well, not ALL, but it was a big focus) was 2 fill out questionaires and give and get feedback from her on them. I thought, if we followed the forumlas, we'd fix our M and live happily ever after. Well, it's been 17 months, and we have yet 2 fill out a questionaire. Not that that's a bad thing. In our case, I don't think it is. I have no idea whether it would have been "faster" 2 do it "by the books" or methods, but it doesn't matter much at this point. I think we're on our way 2 recovery now.

I've read a number of books now, and find that the best of the "self-help" books aren't even formatted with methods or questionaires. For example, "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch, or "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle, or "The Truth About Relationships" by Greg Baer. There are many others. What these have done for me is 2 let me stop fretting over where we "should be", what I should be asking, or where we should be headed, and focus on what's going on in my own head and how that affects those around me (particularly my W, but certainly not just her). I certainly don't always do a good job of it, and still I'll get all wrapped around what's wrong with "us". But that just bogs me down. Lately, when it happens it becomes more obviously ineffective than the previous time, and so I can recognize it as a blind alley and back out of it sooner than I could have before.

...I started reading Dr. Phil's "Relationship Rescue" recently, because my MIL had bought a copy and left it at the house (bless her educating heart! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), and I was thinking "hm, this is pretty good stuff" ...until I got 2 the questionaires. Don't get me wrong. The intro chapters say all the right things, in my view, but I just don't respond well 2 questionaires - they seem contrived.

I don't know if this has anything 2 do with your H's reactions 2 your questions, I'm just talking about my own personal experiences. I find that, if I get "in2" a series of questionaires or methods (including MB), at some point I start subconsciously molding my R with my W 2 fit the questionaires, scenarios, and methods, rather than just interacting with her and observing the results. When I'm at my "best", I have no expectations for her 2 do *anything* for me (needs or whathaveyou), so she subconsciously feels no pressure from me 2 behave in a certain way, and we have our best times 2gether (which meets our needs!). When I'm at my worst... ...well, just look at some of my 4,000 or 5,000 posts over the past year and a half for sampes of that - I don't want 2 go there!

I hope I've helped a bit. Sorry if I haven't.
♥2long

dear 2long-thank you so much for your input. i really appreciate it. i do agree with you-the problem is he isnt doing anything really towards recovery or meeting my needs. i am pretty much in the same situation as before the affair. he doesnt make me feel loved and safe, i withdraw, he withdraws and then, BAM, he has an affair.

he asked to have me write this out for him, he asked for another chance-the third now-and still nothing. i guess i know the answer, but i keep getting asked if my needs are too difficult for him to fulfill.

so that is my question-are these needs too difficult to fulfill in your opinions.

Nikko,

Now I think the first question you need to ask of 2L is whether he EVER colored inside the lines. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I must tell you I hate surveys and filling out forms, so I sort of go with 2L on this. But, he alluded to something that you need to consider. There is information gathering (questionaires) and there is guidance (suggestions and hints) and there are "marching order" (somewhat suggested by your request of your H.

Now if your H is someone who never "colored inside the lines" and there are a lot of us guys who fall into that category, he might see your list as "marching orders" and so now what you have is a bit of passive/aggressive response. The "I will do enough, but no more" sort of resistance.

It seems to me your list is detailed and specific and apparently what he asked for. But even if he asked for it, was he ready to handle it? It seems not.

So you still don't know if he loves you, because what this may have turned into is a bit of a power struggle. However, you could reasonably ask yourself if you want to engage in this struggle. You could reasonably ask if he is worth the effort. He may be asking himself the same.

My suggestion is to ask him how he feels about the list. Is it annoying to him? Does he feel as if you are telling him what to do? Does he even feel you are giving him the "do this or else" treatment?

In a way you are, but perhaps you can get him to go over the list and with your encouragement ask him how he would written the list if he were you.

Not so much that he then has to follow it but for INFORMATION.

I guess to summarize, I sense a power struggle going on. I am guessing but your H is feeling he is going to lose control of his life if he lets you "dictate" how he must love you and make love to you. I know that wasn't your intent, but if there is one thing I have learned on this site is that people "don't hear what other people say the way we think they should". Is that statement confusing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It should be.

I hope this is of some help.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ June 13, 2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

As for me I wished I had gotten a list. t doesn't have to be followed to the letter or in any order, it would just serve as a reminder of some of the things you want/need until they became habits. I don't see anything on it that would be hard to meet. If he has a problem with any specific problems they could be talked about.

In any case since he asked for the list you should ask him to talk about it. Find out in a loving way why he isn't/can't do these things.

dear jl-thanks for the input. hubby never colors outside the lines-god forbid!!! lol

he asked for this per steve's suggestion. he wanted it very detailed and put as simply as possible. this was their idea, not mine. i had to re-write it 3-times for more detail. these were not marching orders, it is what i need to thrive. i feel for the most part basics, with a few luxury's thrown in.

i guess i just need to ask him why i bothered? i guess im gonna have to charge this one head on or give up alltogether, i am running out of sanity and strength.

thanks guys

nikko,

Don't ask him "why you bothered?" THat is going to get his defenses up. Find a way to bring it to his attention where it is a problem you have, you concern, something non-confrontational. You want him talking about it.

I know you weren't issuing "marching orders." But, my guess is that he sees them as that, although he and SH asked for them with this level of detail. Sometimes what people ask for is not what they are happy to see.

You don't need to recant you list. You just need to find out how he feels about them. Did it bother him? Does he feel like you are "bossing" him around? Does he feel you will never be satisfied?

This type of thing. If you ask these questions, sit there and don't say a thing until he answers. Just sit and listen to the silence, and let him think about his wording and phrasing. It may take a lot longer than you are comfortable with, but just let him have all the time he wants. Don't be impatient or act that way.

One question at a time, do this.

THat would be my recommendation.

God Bless,

JL

thanks jl-i will. im just having a really bad day. thanks for the help. i will be better before he comes home. more centered.

Well when you ask for something then aren't you suppose to be strong enough to take it????

Ok, so Steve and your H agreed this list was needed but when it was given, then what??!?!?

JL & 2Long, I just don't get you men sometimes. It is hard for us Vensuians (as RH calls us - LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) to present what we need in a way that will be palatable and useful.

So all you men out there, how do we do this? How do the wives communicate to their H's without turning them off, pushing their buttons and still get results? You guys are always sooo logical...... always ready to help those in need (even total strangers) but when the wives ask for....... (what is rightly theirs), well..... a double defense goes up and wa la...... it goes from defense to fence real quick. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

L.

Orchid,

You already know the answer to this and I don't have a lot of time. I need to get some work done today. So what I am going to do is take Nikko's list and respond as I suspect many men would.

Now before I do this, I want you, Nikko, and any other woman to understand this is not to invalidate your feelings and needs as mentioned in this list.

When I am done, you will fully understand that you don't understand <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> what men are talking about, but in your confusion, you will see ours.

Most men when confronted with this list would go: Whisky, Tango, Foxtrot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Not because the items are not valid, but it is like watching their sisters play with their doll houses.

Ok Here goes. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

1) HONESTY AND OPENNESS:

i would like you to be more open and honest with your feelings good and bad.

be more accountable for money. show receipts for spending.(has somewhat done this)

include me in investing and money spending decisions.

put my name on the savings account.(did this)

i would like you to tell me about your dad-you have never really told me about him.(his dad died when he was 8)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More open and honest about MY feelings? Surely you jest. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Men, are just not wired or trained that way. I would strongly suggest that you get this weeks Newsweek magazine. It is focused on men and men's health. Several articles talk about why we DON'T talk about our feelings.

In short, we don't have FRIENDS we have ALLIANCES.

He probably doesn't know much about his Dad if he died at 8. Why? Most men and for that matter women don't appreciate their Dad's until they hit teenage years if not MUCH later. What men bring to childrearing often doesn't show up until the teenage years. When JUST nuturing, is not enough.

The other items he could and seems to be doing for the most part. He should be able to handle those fine, if they negotiate them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

2)AFFECTION

leave me unexpected love notes. the pre-written ones we have are great.(he has done this once)

call and leave me romantic and sexy messages on my voicemail.

email me jokes or just to say i love you

flowers for no reason-(he has done this ok)

volunteer to rub my back

set up surprise dates-you do all the planning.(we have had 3-4 dates, that he initiated but didnt do the planning)

surprises-i need you to be more creative with your affection

verbalize what you love about me
compliment me-(he does this but not consistently)

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like she wants him to be "FABIO" out of a bodice ripper. I realize she is being specific, but most men don't do this stuff. He is doing some of it. That is good, but not enough to suit her.

The sexy messages are tough unless item 5 is being dealt with. Most of us guys just don't "get" the need for the constant affirmation. But, it seems that he handles the flowers pretty well. I do that. The backrubs, well know, I can see some negotiation leading to that happening more often. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

3)ADMIRATION

recognition and gratitude for what i do-(he is ok here)

verbalize to me how strong i've been

be proud of me
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you mean you can bench 300 lb?? I don't think so, but the word strong to men means strength.

Do you mean you want affirmation that you have endured alot to keep this marriage going? If so, why not ask him, if he says yes. No more needs to be said right???? Yeah, I didn't think so. You want constant REaffirmation that you carried the day with this marriage.

"be proud of me" I like that one. Are you proud of him? How do you show it? I suspect this is a very complex issue. Is he proud that he has married a beautiful woman? Is he proud that she kept him in the marriage through her will alone? Is he proud of her professional achievements?

Probably, he is. If he wasn't proud of her he wouldn't be seen with her. I know, us guys blew it again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But, Orchid doesn't this sound a bit clingy to you?? Yeah, your right. My bad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

4)CONVERSATION

ask more about me
set aside specific time to talk about any issues
set a time limit on certain conversation-1 hour
use the conversation question book-maybe once a week-(a book i bought to get us talking,ex.favorite color?)
share any emotions you have with me-good or bad
tell me about your history
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Men, don't have issues. Men, have problems to solve, and they usually try to solve them,on their own.

Most times men don't need to ask women about themselves. We are going to hear about their day, their conversations with people we don't know, and surely we are going to hear when we screwed up. So why ask? We are going to get the info anyway?

Ok Orchid, MY BAD again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

5)SEXUAL FULLFILLMENT

i need to feel desirable, courted
i want to use the romantic nights book i got-this book allways leads to sex and fun things.
i want to use the sex coupons we got-both of us
i want not only romance, but fun too. secret meetings, luch rondevous, etc...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fun men can do. I noticed that she didn't annotate any of these points with him having responded to this. The boy is sick. But, I have to tell you we can do FUN with sex. However, we do worry about pushing too far and often have to over come a lot of years of NO. So perhaps here Nikko needs to take the lead. I could go on, but I would only get into more trouble than I am already in.

Seriously, this is really of all of the topics the hardest to reconcile. While I was making some light of it, their history together, any previous history either of them might have had, and family of origin issues way so heavily. This is probably something that HE cannot do on his own. He will really need her help and guidance. Because most men resonate with the SF issue, and if he isn't, there is something that must be overcome. That will probably take both of them.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

6)RECREATIONAL COMPANIONSHIP

This one needs to be directly negotiated, if it isn't happening now.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I had some fun with this, but Nikko your list is very good, and it is what they asked for. I know you have given specific examples, but to a guy most of it DOESN'T look like fun. I know that is not how you mean it. It is sort of like the "let's talk" statement. Men hear that and go " Uh Oh!".

So again my recommendation is that the two of you really talk about this. You are probably two young but there once was a popular phrase "if you blow in my ear I will follow you anywhere". You need to figure out how to figuratively "blow in his ear" about these issues.

Frankly, I can see how you could do this, but most of the approaches are sexual in nature. That very statement is probably what you are up against. You don't see them in that light at all, he knows it, but he isn't sure how not to see them that way.

I know I probably made things worse. It was not my intent. Hope something I said is of some help.

I would like to say to you Nikko, that you have done what was asked in the way it was asked. You cannot be faulted for that. My take on this is you and your H need to now take this list and discuss it so that you can see where he is hung up on the items. My bet is he does want you happy, but the utility of doing some of things eludes him.

So you have my take.

God Bless,

JL

PS: you could of course take one of my old football coaches approach to things, when I messed up a play, and I said "but coach I thought you said to do..." His response: "Don't think boy you weaken the club." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You might try that approach. Slap him up side the head with the clipboard and tell him to quit thinking and start doing.

ok jl-i will keep this short, he should be home anytime. i get it-trade off sex for what i want.

but what if i have been doing it for 2 yrs and still nothing?????????? i could shock the he// out of you nice christian folk if i got into all i have done. believe me the boy is gettin it and then some.

so now what. just because these are uncomfortable things-dont try. why am i always not important enough to try?

my youngest just came to me and told me of a nightmare he had--daddy and mommy are fighting, dad leaves and he never sees him again.

now please understand we dont fight. we really dont. not even with this. have we raised voices when the kids were not home.you betcha. but never in front of them or around them.
so this naturally floored me, like i kick from god. ive been asking for a sign.....boy did it come in a weird way.

and ps...i have been jumping through hoops meeting his needs...which of course i dont really know because he wont tell me, so i am working on all 10. and doing great i may add.

i'd like to see a guy do that for 2 yrs.(mark you are the exception, of course!!!)

Nikko: ok jl-i will keep this short, he should be home anytime. i get it-trade off sex for what i want.

Orchid: Nooooo M should not be a bartering tool, it should be a partnership.....JL you don't mean this right???

Nikko: but what if i have been doing it for 2 yrs and still nothing?????????? i could shock the he// out of you nice christian folk if i got into all i have done. believe me the boy is gettin it and then some.

Orchid: Nikko, regardless of how 'creative' you have been, how do you feel? Successful or used?
Where is your self worth? Where is your H's? When I had my list, I put him in my place because I certainly wasn't getting anywhere 'telling' him my needs.

Nikko: so now what. just because these are uncomfortable things-dont try. why am i always not important enough to try?

Orchid: But you are important. See if you can get your H's commitment on how important he will say you are. I got mine to admit we were priceless (yes, it was that his family was priceless, then he said it was us individually but that took a while - about 1 looooong week).

NOTE: Patience is NOT one of my virtues - LOL!!

Nikko: my youngest just came to me and told me of a nightmare he had--daddy and mommy are fighting, dad leaves and he never sees him again.

now please understand we dont fight. we really dont. not even with this. have we raised voices when the kids were not home.you betcha. but never in front of them or around them.
so this naturally floored me, like i kick from god. ive been asking for a sign.....boy did it come in a weird way.

Orchid: Hm...... now turn this around and tell your H what your son said, ask your H his advice on what to say to your son or how best to help him. May be helpful to let him 'deal with it', while you watch from a safe distance.

My son had nightmares, he eventually told his dad (via me at first), later much later, our son started to ask his dad questions. The latest was the last week at breakfast, right in the middle of the restaurant - YIKES! But you know what? I didn't rescue him. I let him deal with it. See he could not blame this one on me, our son directly asked his dad on his own. The question? "Dad, why won't you go back to our meetings where we study the Bible?" His dad was stunned for a bit then admitted to our son that he did not have a good reason. Then our son asked well why? After a couple of whys!?!??!? With no valid response (son has a nack for getting straight to the point), H gave a short but not complete answer to our son (remember we were in the restaurant.

Nikko: and ps...i have been jumping through hoops meeting his needs...which of course i dont really know because he wont tell me, so i am working on all 10. and doing great i may add.

Orchid: How long do you think you can keep this up?

Nikko: i'd like to see a guy do that for 2 yrs.(mark you are the exception, of course!!!)

Orchid: Me too!

take care,
L.

Nikko,

I know I'm gonna be all over the board on this one so just bear with me....
aslo know that though often thought of a playing a male on this board...I am not ...go ahead and test me...ask me for a jello recipe I can spought off a dozen .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

In some ways this is a tough situation with you....the list is a direct request from husband and council....

Problem with the list is that you have to be willing to accept and understand that it smacks of being somewhat unrealistic. No partner even in the best of marriages meets ALL of these things at the same they come in spurts and some are even on a learning curve. A huge learning curve

There is built into it some smidgen of prefailure on both sides...
1. being your husbands (or any persons) ability to do all of these.
2. your ability to see the great value in the one's he does do and reach some point of satisfaction with them.

So what a conundrum you are in....

the good news is as I always say is that people can and do change all the time.
the other thing I always say is that you can't change him but you can change you....

So first I will address this to you alone and your role in it...(as I see it)..

First of all you must give heaps and heaps of praise and positive feedback for those things he does do....and before you say I already do..think long and hard on this....and see if there is any room for more....
Imagine your husband having this list...and he appears to be able to meet some of the "easier" not that deep of needs off the bat. some are physical task...(easier than emotional..) the flowers , the names on accounts)...
but you must take great care in gaurding his motivation in doing these things by not making him afraid that those aren't "good enough" and he should have done this or that instead.

For someone who has never felt comfortable doing these things you need to take care in creating an environment that feels safe for him...

The conflict for you is that you were wounded badly by him and to you it should be elementary to him...
power shifts in a marriage in which infidelity has occurred in my opinion is a very treacherous and painful thing....

difficult for the BS not to feel/demand some sense of entitlement to "butt kissing"...

difficult for the WS not to feel "controlled" or that every move they make will result in the past being thrown in their face. Or the route of I'm such a mess up...it's better to retreat and not face this...
tough tough stuff on both sides.

power shifts and feelings of wanting control are huge in my opinion but the reality of a strong union between two people is not based on control or power. The long term goal is to wrestle these demons down and come to a middle ground.

You also may want to explore your view of seeing yourself jumping through hoops for him....
To me that sounds exhausting.
Marriage should bring out the best in us.
You may be better served in approaching what hoops you jump through as something you do for YOU...regardless of his response.

Viewing your own actions as jumping through hoops seems like a part of you is saying...I do these things not because I want to but because I feel I have to...they become a task...a chore...and something that really comes with strings attached.

when we give and do freely with no expectations EXCEPT we believe they make us a better person or define our feelings and beliefs better, then they become less of hoop jumping and gives us more freedom in being the type of person we want to be.

It took me time to learn to express my admiration for my husband. At first it felt foreign and scarey to say some things to mr. ark. some times they even just fell flat...but I felt better in the end having said them...not based on his reaction...but based that I told him something I thought was important he should know. Now my expression of admiration and care are not done to impress him, or to gain something back from him..but are done for me...so that I know that I take time to express my own thoughts to him of what I value about him.

I have fallen at times into the trap of doing things I thought he wanted or appreciated and some just lead to building up resentment in me...which was unfair to him in the long run because it was what I perceived he wanted/expected.

Perhaps re-look at your own actions...figure out which ones feel like jumping through hoops..and which ones you do because you value them in yourself and him...and maybe you will find more peace in doing what you can control.

It is perhaps your husband does need to learn these things...
unfair that you feel he has to be taught and shown...yes and no...even in marriages without infidelity these things often need to be learned...affairs just seem to highlight what 'appears' to be lacking and puts more stress on both to obtain....

well i have muddied these waters enough...
peace to you Nikko
ARK

alot to think about---thanks. i will respond more when i really digest all of it-im gonna print it out and go really examine all of it.

again thanks

Male chauvinist pig here.

I don't know the whole background here, only what this post said, so I will post in answer to that information.

Nikko darlin,

I want to do every one of these things for you, but my god, there are so many of them. Which one can I do right now? I can't posibly do them all today. Hey I have never done them before so I don't know where to start. I try with the books about sex and talking but "Favorite colors"! Ah gees honey! I can't even pretend to understand that stuff.

I can't bring myself to admit that I don't know how to be a good husband. Hey I know that I failed you, and I am trying to be better. I just don't know how! You gave me the list and I tried to go by it, but it is not quite what I thought it would be. You didn't tell me exactly how you need me to fill this overwhelming number of needs that I have not been fulfilling. If I don't do it right you are going to be upset about it and that will only be another way that I have failed you. I don't want to prove to you that I don't understand what you need. You have told me that if I fail to live up to these demands you are going to throw me out of your life.

I know that I have to figure all this out on my own or loose you. I just don't have any hope that I can do it by myself?
I truly don't want to be without you in my life so I am going to ask you, could you show me what you want? Could we posibly start with a shorter list and build up to where you want us to be.
***********

Is he feelin something like that?

When I saw the list it set me back for a moment. That is exactly what it is, A list. GIVE to my TAKER or I get rid of you. What does he get in return? He asked you to tell him what you need and you gave him an ultimatim. Here is what you asked for, now please me or you are history. I don't know what he has done in the past but it sounds as if you might have him under your boot heel now and you are going to make crawl for you. That is your first paragraph.

Yes you did lighten up afterwards but your venom had already been injected. Is that how he hears you? Tough as h%%% on the old love bank. How does he bank now that you have made it a L buster? Is it all or nothing? It sounds as if his attempts are not enough to give him any hope.

Did you show appreciation for his efforts or did you let him know that he hadn't completed the list? Gotta be two of you working together to get there. Throw the red inkpen away and comment on the good work instead. He will work his a$$ off for praise, just like you will.
OH shucky darn, cattle on the road, gotta run.

Hang in there, OK.

fudd.

Wow Ark..... I want those jello recipes - LOL!!! Your words are 'heavy' (pardont he 60's expression) but very right on Q.

There is frustration I sense with Nikko that I also have. JL may have thought I was being 'well grouchy' or something but really, I have a hard time in this area of communication with H. WHY? Hm..... good one, find that and you will have solved one of the mysteries of the universe - LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Both H and I seem to communicate well with others. We get a lot of work done ...... for others but when it comes for doing work/communication with ourselves, that is just a wall we find too hard to climb. I keep looking for climbing gear without hooks and well, climbing that wall gushing with water without a rope and barefoot is sure hard.
That's what it feels like. Kind of defeating.

Fudd, I also read your words and though I know that list is 'long', it has been 'growing' over the years......at least for me. At the beginning, it was a short list.

Can the male spouse produce a list for his W? If so, what is the best way to ask for this list?

Given the fact that we can take it (the list that is) and not get offended, I often loose it in the 'asking' dept. Seems like I get in trouble for asking and then NOT asking. Feel like a born loser every time. I have been using that 'wall' to 'bang my head' instead of climbing it. That wall doesn't show a dent but my head feels like it is being reshaped - LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Ok, I am with Nikko on this, guys and gals..... help!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

L.

ok-ive gone over it and have some time finally. busy weekend.

first off let me try to make this clear for everyone....
on dec 9th of 2001 i had my first d-day. soon after in jan we found mb's and did the en questionaire. he filled his out on how i was acting at the time-which allready in plan a was perfect to him.(i know im not perfect, that is why i need guidance from him.) so i got an idea of his needs, sort of.

first year was ok-the first six months i was kinda in a shocked state--i was running in circles to meet his every need. then i asked why is he not meeting my needs? he never even tried. i never said anything thinking he would respond eventually. at oct. of 2002, i realized i had asked to have my needs met three times in the past and was at the end of waiting. i wrote a pre plan b letter laying out how i felt and what i needed, counseling, honesty, affection,sex, and recreation. he did nothing-so three months later in jan. of 2003 i asked him to leave. he cried, i cried and he begged, saying he would try. he called steve harley twice. steve counseled him on an apology, which i was waiting over a year for. he also counseled him on meeting my needs. steve knew of the letter and thought it was great. so i gave husband another chance. as i said he talked to steve twice, never again. he then asked me to write out the needs list i gave you all. he wanted a couple different ways to meet each need. from simple to "higher end". i did all this and he did a few to begin with, then he just stops. i didnt say anything and he doesnt hear about this at all. so i am not nagging him. in fact if he read this he would be floored, he thinks all is well. but then why shouldnt he, in all this time he has NEVER asked me how i am doing with all this. if he ever bothered to ask how i was i would have told him. but he doesnt. when we do talk its allways about him and his job.(this is ok-i like knowing-i just wish he would ask about me.)

so back to the reply's:

jl- i am sifting through the answers you gave me and here goes-
as far as his dad-i dont know anything. and he does know alot, he just doesnt think the past matters. like the fact that infidelity is rampant in his family and maybe i shoulda known this tidbit before i married him. and yes i did ask.

as far as the affection things-i am not looking for fabio-i want my husband and want to feel as if he wants me. as far as sexy messages-i do them for him, and i do address # 5! lol as far as backrubs-well i am in the spa industry and he gets full body massages from me all the time. i just want to be touched.

as far as the part you thought i sounded clingy on...when i say proud of me, i mean what i do. i often feed his whole crew-which is 30 people at a clip. i do gourmet cooking and have been approached by a few restaurant people to do work for them. these are usually meals that consist of at least 15 different dishes. a thank you-that was incredible would be nice. he expects it now. have you ever done this-try it and tell me you wouldnt want your spouse to be proud of you!

the conversation part and you saying that we women allways go right on and tell men about ourselves anyway....well i dont. he doesnt ask so i dont tell. and if i do manage to get an opening-he usually cuts me off and changes the subject. so i dont

ark-- i do praise him for every little thing he does. i notice them all. i am not looking for but kissing here and i am not on a power quest. i got over the affair a long time ago. what i am stuck on is i dont like the way i am being treated, and he keeps promising change and then goes right back. i want to be happy, not lonely and wanting....

the jumping through hoops just came out. i do do more than most but i allways loved it, i still do. i just want some for me.

ok fudd- i dont want all of them at once-or even one a day. the list was just a cheat sheet for him.(thats what he called it) something for him to do once in awhile. once in awhile.

orchid-thanks as allways hun--i hope they understand now.