Oh, and I agree with CoffeeMan.... what about looking into a legal separation as a way to implement Plan B and protect your custody rights?

If Conan says he's done .... I believe him.

Why save his marriage if he's done?

Conan .... are you 100% done trying? Can you now walk away ... knowing you did your best?

Pepper nobody is trying to twist his arm, but we are asking him, in a roundabout way, the same question.

Oh .... I guess it was so roundabout that I couldn't tell (I am dense sometimes)

Thanks!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>If Conan says he's done .... I believe him.

Why save his marriage if he's done?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that in the case of infidelity one is not ethically obligated in any way to do anything other than shut the door and walk away. When there are children their needs must be weighed against that right, but the right is still there. The betrayal is so profound.

But my answer to the question of "why" is because marriage is a committment.... for better or worse.... and this certainly qualifies as worse. So it's a matter of how much any one of us hangs on to that committment.

I believe that if one does Plan A (a real Plan A which includes being honest, confronting and exposing) and then does Plan B, and it doesn't work then fine walk away.

In this case Conan says that he did the entire MB plan and I'm not sure I would agree. NOT to beat him up... he's been through more than enough.... but to defend MB and the process. It works when it's all used. When that's not the case it's really not all that effective at saving marriages. It's a package deal, is what I'm saying. Leave out parts and the effectiveness decreases drastically.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but to defend MB and the process. It works when it's all used. When that's not the case it's really not all that effective at saving marriages. It's a package deal, is what I'm saying. Leave out parts and the effectiveness decreases drastically.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah I guess its safe to say that the old Burger King motto 'Have it your way' doesn't apply to Plan A/Plan B. You have to be as committed as the Taco Bell Chihuahua and say 'Yo quiero MB' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ June 26, 2003, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Don't people just plain run out of steam sometimes? Aren't our physical and emotional resourses finite?

I'm not telling anyone to give up .... if there is hope there is a reason to try.

But, where does one find the energy when the tank is empty and there is no reserve?

I suppose the only energy resource then would be the spiritual strength some of us find in our "higher power" .....

(Can you tell I've recently been to an AA/Al-Anon meeting???? "The definition of insanity .... doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results")LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ June 26, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Of course we run out of steam. That's why there's Plan B, and why it needs to happen when you still have hope and still have feelings for your spouse.

Otherwise we really do just want to give up and move on.

I'm all for the doing something different. It's what I harp on all the time. If you've been doing Plan A for the reccommended max time (3 mos for women and 6 for men.... tops) and it hasn't worked, then it's not going to. And holding on continuing to do it is counter-productive. It's time for something different.... Plan B is a new tactic, it protects the offended spouse from the day to day in your face pain, AND most importantly it explicitly leaves the door open for reconciliation when the affair ends, the addiction or abuse is addressed or the neglect is rectified.

I can't tell you how much email I get from women whose husbands are having affairs. And they all say the same thing..... that she's willing to hang in there, be good to him, meet needs, get rid of her lbers.... do what it takes to bring him back. But she's not ever willing to either confront, expose or certainly not go to Plan B.... that would be the end!! And they always say that no matter what she'll love him forever.

The downward slide is predictable. More and more pain, more tears, more physical symptoms of stress until finally she's had enough. And then I get the email that says she can't imagine what she ever saw in this guy, he is slime, she has no respect for him and she never wants to see him again.

Every time.

This is what the fullness of Plan A and the subsequent Plan B is designed to protect you from. And in so doing to protect the possibility of reconciliation later. To let you have some peace and to hang onto a little of that steam <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C

I so agree with Plan B after a time limited Plan A .... and as far as "exposure" is concerned .... well, "exposure" is my middle name! (LOL! I just said that to make TMCM flinch!)

I may be missing some key info here .... this is what I understand...

Conan thought he was in recovery already .... he did his Plan A .... he didn't need to expose because OM was given a NC letter... and, Conan didn't need Plan B cuz his wife was on board the recovery train. And he thought he was in recovery for years?

Come to find out, none of it was true.

And Conan doesn't want to Plan B for legal technical reasons .... and his option is taking her to court to force her to move out? And the chances of this are ???? slim I'm thinking.

I donno .... I need to think about this.

Thanks for your patience and kind explainations..... still thinking.....Pep

Well little Miss Exposure... LOL... We'd get along well I see <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Right.... he did the Plan A and there didn't seem to be a need for Plan B. What I was questioning was the part about extraordinary precautions as part of the conditions for recovery. Particularly Time, Radical Honesty and Accountability.

And then if she wasn't willing to agree to those things to do Plan B.... as a legal separation if need be. At that point what's to lose.... a legal sep should set up the conditions and protections (if one can call them that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) of divorce while still explicitly stating a desire for reconciliation when the affair ends.

C

Oh.... and ask away... these kinds of questions I like..... There are others that are far more difficult. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ June 26, 2003, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

Cerri:

What's the typical amount of time of Plan B before the A ends, that is, if it does end. In other words, how long do reconciled couples stay in PLAN B, typically?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>Cerri:

What's the typical amount of time of Plan B before the A ends, that is, if it does end. In other words, how long do reconciled couples stay in PLAN B, typically?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know that there's a "typical" amount of time. I think it has a lot to do with how comprehensive the Plan A was.... and whether or not Plan B was initiated soon enough.... rather than being a doormat for way too long... which is in my world not Plan A, but Plan "E" for enabling.

Whether the A is exposed to the scrutiny of the rest of the world, how willing the BS is to really insist on n/c and no meeting needs, and if all of that was stated explicitly.

Harley says do Plan B for 2 years, and then move on with a clear conscience. I would say when you do Plan B really do it. Remember Plan A is about the WS.... it's all about ending the A. Plan B is about YOU.... getting yourself out of the pain and the agony of having to deal with the A day in and day out. Get out, make some friends (same sex!), find some new hobbies, get a life that lets you put the A on the back burner. Find ways to turn off the wondering and the obsessing. Detach, I guess. Heal.

When the A ends he may call you, he may not. And at that point you can decide if he seems ready to do the hard work of the conditions you lay out. If not.... bummer for him.... he's missing out on a great woman. And if he is, then make darn sure you have hard and fast conditions that he needs to meet.

Plan B.... take care of you. Stand up for yourself. Set internal boundaries that tell you and the world that you deserve waaay more than what he gave you, that you will not be part of a triangle and that if he wants you back then he needs to prove it.

(I don't do doormat <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

C

Wow, some great discussion while I was away. I appreciate it on all sides. Pep did a great job of filling for me... thanks sweetie! To answer a few issues: I did try to do all the radical honesty thing. The issue that seems to be missed here is that good liars can defeat the plan. I did have a key stroke tracker, I had a GPS on her car, I had detectives follow her!! She knew this, but still went ahead. That is why I would eventually catch her again. With all due respect, the possibility of moving a Mother out of her house is zero. I am a lawyer and have become a divorce expert. Frankly, the fact that Harley suggest people do Plan B without consulting a lawyer is very troubling. You could lose your kids doing that!!! I am dead serious about this. Blindly pursuing Plan B, could mean that in the end you not only lose your marriage, but your kids, your house and your money. In my opinion, this would be a further slap in the face by the WS. I already am likely to lose my job due to the all the stress this has caused and all the time and effort I put into trying to save this marriage.

I am absolutely done with trying to save this marriage. It is beyond redemption. I have come to see that my wife is mentally twisted. I am not going to debate every point made here, but I will say that even though I believe Harley's ideas are the best I have seen, they are not fool proof (or really, liar proof). I have zero doubt that I have done all that I could do under the circumstances. When you are being tricked repeatedly for 4 years, I think you get some piece of mind that things are never going to get better.

Again, I truly appreciate the dialogue here!

Conan

PS. I must have missed the parts about exposing the A to the world. I really don't remember reading that before. That seems very harsh and I do not see the value in it. Where did you get this idea as being central to Plan A?

<small>[ June 27, 2003, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: Conan ]</small>

Cerri:

Thank you for such a helpful answer to my question!

I think I might have leaned towards PLAN E but I am recovering. In other viewpoints, I would be considered CODEPENDENT. That personality feature of mine needs to change whether I'm with my WS or not. I'm working on it in all of my relationships.

Again, thanks.

By the way, Conan:
Steve Harley recommended for me to see a lawyer to obtain a legal separation.

<small>[ June 27, 2003, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Frankly, the fact that Harley suggest people do Plan B without consulting a lawyer is very troubling.
Can’t say I have ever read that anywhere.

I would recommend anyone considering Plan B ALWAYS consult a lawyer and let then know emphatically that you are not seeking divorce and you are trying to do everything to reconcile. I would also recommend anyone considering Plan B to get an appt with MB. Seems most people think it is as simple as reading a book and asking a question or two.

You could lose your kids doing that!!! I am dead serious about this. Blindly pursuing Plan B, could mean that in the end you not only lose your marriage, but your kids, your house and your money.
Exactly why Plan B should not be “blindly pursued” and very well researched, thought out & planned.

I am absolutely done with trying to save this marriage. It is beyond redemption. I have come to see that my wife is mentally twisted. I am not going to debate every point made here, but I will say that even though I believe Harley's ideas are the best I have seen, they are not fool proof (or really, liar proof). I have zero doubt that I have done all that I could do under the circumstances.
Then congrats on a good execution of Marriage Builders principles! Nowhere does it say that using MB WILL save your marriage. Using MB WILL give you a greater chance of success as well as giving you the best chance for recovery from a divorce.

PS. I must have missed the parts about exposing the A to the world. I really don't remember reading that before. That seems very harsh and I do not see the value in it.
It seems harsh because it is. By letting everyone know what is going on, it makes the ws/op live in reality with their affair. No more “exciting, scary and extremely passionate” secret little affair because they “may” get found out. Reality sucks sometimes and giving them a dose of it will usually end the affair because of the pressure by family & friends.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Conan:

"Frankly, the fact that Harley suggest people do Plan B without consulting a lawyer is very troubling." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's the second paragraph from page 80 of 'Surviving An Affair':

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"But people who have custody of children are often not able to do this because they cannot legally move the children out of the state. I suggest consulting with an attorney to learn how state laws may limit such a move"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Conan:

PS. I must have missed the parts about exposing the A to the world. I really don't remember reading that before. That seems very harsh and I do not see the value in it. Where did you get this idea as being central to Plan A?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Daily on the radio show WH hosted a couple of years ago, and now twice weekly when he guests on his wife's show. A direct quote from WH is "put it on the evening news."

It may not be in the book, which is several years old now. WH talks a lot about MB being an evolving living thing as he gets feedback from people about what works and what doesn't. I've seen more than one thing I've discussed with him over the years find their way into the program. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Ok, I hear you about the "telling everyone" about the A now. I did not know that. I did not do that.

As far as consulting a lawyer, I am glad Dr. Harley tells people to do it. I will say however, that the reference to moving out of state is far short of what I spoke about.

By the way, I did not start this thread to bash MB. I think MB is great... the best concepts I have read or heard and I have tried to research pretty much. I was just feeling very low about my future, etc. I can't say the thread really made me feel better... but that is OK.

Thanks to all who responded.

Conan.

Never thought you were bashing MB.... just inquiring, exploring and digging. I come from a family that digs into every philosophical and conceptual question that comes up until the wee hours of the night. We don't always agree but we try to see where the other guy is coming from. I'm never offended by questions and rarely with disagreements. And when it comes to the subject of infidelity I know all too well how painful and emotionally difficult the whole thing is.

Your situation is horrifying. And I'm sure you did the best you could every step of the way. I have more regrets about the things I did and didn't do than you could ever know so I would be the last one to expect anyone to do things perfectly.... it's just not in the realm of human possibility.

What I meant to say, and most likely with my usual lack of tact (I'm working on it.... really!) is that there is almost always some other tactic that might have been missed or could still be tried and not to throw in the towel prematurely.

Plan B when you're dealing with the custody issue is a huge difficulty. Especially if you're a dad. Have you looked into the possibility of leaving and taking the kids with you?

In any event.... my sincere apologies if it seemed like I was beating up on you. I never meant to. I think all BS's deserve the utmost respect, it's a terrible place to be.

C

Conan,

I too, have found out that my H is still seeing the OW after 3 years of false recovery. I just wanted you to know I sympathize with what you are going through. I feel as if divorce is the only answer left to me.

My H has moved out since Mother's Day. I know the courts would look very unfavorably on the abandonment, especially as this is the 2nd time in 3 years.

Apparently, the addiction to the OP is so great that they risk everything. I too, think the Harley's plan was sound, and I really gave it my best shot. I fulfilled his top needs of SF and Attractive spouse. We spent the 15 hours together, more than that. We laughed, cried, made incredible love almost all the time. We really connected and he said our marriage was the best.

However, he still needed to talk to his friend. His cellphone bill had hours of conversation, some at night after I had gone to bed, some during the day when he was at work.

So, I told him it was over. I had done my best. I asked Why? He said he did not know why he still continued to call her. I know why, it is because he never got over her. Anyway, I am going forward with my life.

I wanted to ask Cerri to try and respond to my thread:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=011195

I would like to consult with her. I apologize for hijacking your thread.