Personally, I'm getting tired of hearing every excuse under the sun for this problem, and I get tired of doing extensive and prolonged oral and tactile gymnastics with no results. Would it be okay to just stop when nothing's happening and suggest we try another time? Any other suggestions?

My suspicion is that the problem arises as a result of his secret second life, and I have no interest in discussing it or confronting him about that. The longer the flaccidity goes on in any particular encounter, the less I want to participate. And especially when he opens his mouth and says something about business problems or medication or whatever the latest excuse is, the more disgusted I get.

Here's a link to Absolute Answers To Erection Dysfunction . Good luck.

Thanks, CoffeeMan. That site appears to be geared to men looking for help. I'm not really interested in figuring out his problem since I believe I already know what it is. What I'm looking for is from a man's perspective, what is the most problem-free way for me to bow out of an encounter when an erection is not forthcoming? I don't want to get into a discussion. I don't want to listen to his lies. I don't want to spend an hour on nonproductive fellatio. I either want to have mutually satisfying sex or, if that's not possible, just find something else to do, like sleep.

<small>[ February 04, 2005, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

conqueror-how are you doing? i havent seen you post in awhile. i have been on and off here.

i like hanora's idea. lol

i think you ought to just tell him what you have told us--either it is or it isnt. just be honest

hi!
I am sorry your having problems..I think I can help a lil bit.

when hubby had a problem it was most definetly a hard thing to talk about,usually he could get an erection but not keep it..

so we went to a few counsellors..the nero doctor we saw..suggested we lay naked next to each other for a few weeks..watch tv..cuddle but no sex..
(this was hard for me...not touching..the next week we could touch..(torment each other)
then he told us to go from there to see what would happen...

the thing is maybe your husband has a physical problem. we ended up having to do shots..for this and it was great..actually..he was begging me to give him a shot...(right in the ole penis.)
it was the best of all the things we used because it was natural..(ok men..you will want to have a problem now..lol) He was real firm..and it worked great..I got pretty tired..because we could play for at least for 2 hours..that is as long as the erection would last..
and even upon ejaculation it lasted and we just didn't waste a good thing..grin..

that is what sort of made me happy when he had that problem after realizing it was not me..
for along time I thought it was..he also thought it was..so he started into the flirting..etc..
but...I was in control..I held the shots..lol.

the magic potion...we were in a clinical trial way back in the early 80's..
then he ended up having the implant done..the cadilac of them he called it..

get him checked for diabetes..and also for thyroid
besides that..a thyroid check..and testoerone
and whatever other tests the doc recommends..send him or go with..make an apt..it is worth it to get him cleared on these other things..
then if he is taking..antidepressents perhaps get him switched to Zoloft helps them hold an erection longer..(you men listening..)
and noooo alcohol..it makes willy tired..
but please have patience with him,

I know it is hard..but some of us have gone before you and it can be helped to get him over the hump..so to speak..

this is most frustrating for you..I assure you it is not you..
women can hide this but men cannot..
I never made him feel bad..actually I let him blame me..as I always was blamed for everything anyway..

to think I help the magic potion..it was papavarine...it works..only you can't use it forever because it causes forget what they called it harden areas in the penis..lil bumps..so then they suggested pills...no not viagra..but I am not sure what the pills were we did not want them because the implant would have been done anyway..

and it lasts and lasts....till you deflate it..
gotta go..God bless and there is help for this see a urologist..is the one who to see..for it..a specialist..
hope you get him to get help..if he is a veteran they will help pay for the implant/

Keep on Keeping on..
hey don't feel
bad..at least you know there is hope..for you.
mine is gone now forever.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
and now I got to live without
I took the vow of celibacy when he left.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

hanora--LOL! Fortunately this problem takes place AFTER my "side" has scored. It is at that point that his "side" goes limp. (Maybe he's afraid that when I'm focused on it, I'll detect something he doesn't want me to know?)

SadEyes--Thanks for all the insight. Never heard of the shots! He did have lots of tests done when this was going on before, but they were all normal. His excuse back then was that we were doing it more often than we had in the past. Translation: I'm having trouble getting it up for both you and the OW every day. (Wasn't admitting that he was still with the OW at that time; hence, his apparent need to offer up excuses.)

The current round of this has been going on for about a month or so, and we aren't doing it every day, so he hasn't tried the frequency excuse again. The last remark was blaming it on the blood pressure medication, which is highly unlikely since he's been on that for more than a year, and this just recently began.

I never comment on it while it's happening (or at any other time for that matter). He's always the one that starts in with these dumb excuses, and I have no desire to hear any of that. I'd just like to figure out a graceful way to bow out that won't encourage him act out against me more than usual.

I have no intention of talking to him about any of this. I quit talking to him about marital issues a year and a half ago (remember, nikko?), and I've been able to live a sane, somewhat contented and enjoyable life since then. I try to keep my expectations down to zero, and that has worked very well. I haven't been depressed in over a year and have been off antidepressants all that time.

I've focused on me and who I want to be and how I want to live regardless of who my husband is and what he does or does not do. I've actually been more at peace than ever before in my life.
I think I'm going to go get tested for STDs again since the last time this was going on was after he gave me Chlamydia.

conqueror--our stories are still eerily similar--husband and i never discuss this either. i am just living. im doing ok, but i still miss not having my needs met.

i just wish we could talk. we do the everyday stuff, but no intimate conversations.

tell me how you are and what you have been up to?

Conquerer, I am glad to see you but unhappy its not under happier circumstances. Just wanted to drop in say hey! I have missed your posts.

Conqueror - </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I'm looking for is from a man's perspective, what is the most problem-free way for me to bow out of an encounter when an erection is not forthcoming? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Suffice it to say that there is no problem free way. If you want the "most" problem free way, get a divorce. You won't have to be bothered with it anymore at all. Next up is to simply say "it's not working, let's wait a little while or give it a try another day". Believe me, if it's not working in 5-10 minutes, it's not going to work if you keep at it for 1 hour.

Most impotence related problems are a result of one of two main reasons, sometimes all by themselves and sometimes in conjuction with each other.

1. Physical cause. Low Testosterone (or at least low for him), disease (cancer, etc.), that sort of thing. Medication side effects (yes they can happen even when on some med for a while). Throw in age with this category too.

2. Mental cause. How a man thinks has an enormous amount to do with how he functions sexually from arousal, to erection, to the ability to keep an erection. Since you refuse to deal with what might be going on in his head, not much hope for you to be of any help in this area.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I get tired of doing extensive and prolonged oral and tactile gymnastics with no results </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You certainly seem to be "performing". But I'll bet your husband is too wrapped up in fears about his ability to perform. Failure in this area is often self-perpetuating. In short, they continue to believe that they have a performance problem, and sure enough, they do. Their minds take over and that is NOT how one gets an erection, or keeps one for that matter.

Just a general overview comment based on the "tone" of your message and what sounds like "I've done enough, I'm tired of his inability to get it up or keep it up". You sound very much like a very hurt, very selfish wife. This may just be your way to "get payback". But, regardless of your motivations, your attitude is decidedly unloving and uncaring. I'd guess you'd make the perfect wife for someone, preferrably one who couldn't care less what you do.

Yes, that is harsh and unfeeling. No, I don't know your history. No, I don't care about your history. When you can be so cold about one of the most sensitive areas for men, I hear either someone who is still deeply hurt by her husband's infidelity and has still not really forgiven and learned to love again, or I hear someone who is so intrinsically uncaring that it is scary.

Impotence is a Marriage problem in most cases. There are some percentage of physical reasons for impotence, but most of it is in the man's head. You don't seem to care much one way or the other. Very loving. Not even sure why you are still posting if you've been in recovery this long and still have these problems. Won't discuss the issues that are very likely at the root of the problem that he has and that you are complaining about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not really interested in figuring out his problem since I believe I already know what it is </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">'nuff said.

Anyone have a Bible around somewhere? We might need to see what God says about all this.

<small>[ June 29, 2003, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

Forever--

Thank you for the specific male insight on this--exactly what I was looking for as far as how to handle it when it's happening with the least amount of awkwardness.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ForeverHers:
If you want the "most" problem free way, get a divorce. You won't have to be bothered with it anymore at all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, from experience I am well aware that divorce is NOT the most problem-free way to handle anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Next up is to simply say "it's not working, let's wait a little while or give it a try another day". Believe me, if it's not working in 5-10 minutes, it's not going to work if you keep at it for 1 hour.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This info is massively helpful because I had no idea of a timetable on this, and I didn't want to embarrass him by asking.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since you refuse to deal with what might be going on in his head, not much hope for you to be of any help in this area.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For the record, it has been he who refuses to deal with whatever is going on in his head for as long as I've known him. I simply chose to stop initiating conversations about issues with which he will not deal honestly and openly. He appears to have been happy as a clam since then with all his ENs met and no LBs to be bothered by.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just a general overview comment based on the "tone" of your message and what sounds like "I've done enough, I'm tired of his inability to get it up or keep it up". You sound very much like a very hurt, very selfish wife. This may just be your way to "get payback". But, regardless of your motivations, your attitude is decidedly unloving and uncaring. I'd guess you'd make the perfect wife for someone, preferrably one who couldn't care less what you do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again, for the record, my problem is not with the erectile dysfunction itself. What irritates me is, ironically, exactly what I refer to above--his refusal to be real about it, his continued choice to avoid honesty and openness. I do get physically tired when it's going on though, so the 5-10 minute thing you said will help a lot to let me know when to suggest waiting.

You are fully correct about me being unfeeling and uncaring in the sense that I have no feelings left for my husband, but I don't consider any of this situation (meaning the whole relationship) to be about my feelings. I just try to DO what I believe is right regardless of how I may feel at any particular moment in time--which is exactly why I posted my question about this topic.

But I had to laugh when you said I was selfish! I doubt that I'm the longest-term Plan A-er here, but it is getting close to two years, and I don't consider any other options to be viable. I wouldn't have survived this long if I'd been focusing on myself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that is harsh and unfeeling. No, I don't know your history. No, I don't care about your history.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Those reading this who may be interested can probably look it up under my member number in the archives. Personally I don't care about my history either, as far as my present and future behavior is concerned.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When you can be so cold about one of the most sensitive areas for men, I hear either someone who is still deeply hurt by her husband's infidelity and has still not really forgiven and learned to love again, or I hear someone who is so intrinsically uncaring that it is scary.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may be correct in your analysis, but I'm not scared. I know who lives in me, who is transforming me, who does love me, and His love is perfect. I turned this vessel over to Him for His use.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Impotence is a Marriage problem in most cases. There are some percentage of physical reasons for impotence, but most of it is in the man's head. You don't seem to care much one way or the other. Very loving. Not even sure why you are still posting if you've been in recovery this long and still have these problems. Won't discuss the issues that are very likely at the root of the problem that he has and that you are complaining about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not really interested in figuring out his problem since I believe I already know what it is </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">'nuff said. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This marriage has never been in recovery, but I'm happy to go there whenever H is ready and wants to discuss ANYTHING to do with the M. So far, in a year and a half, he's never brought it up. I haven't posted here in a long time because the Harley principles have limited usefulness when you are not interested in Plan B or divorce and you have a spouse unwilling to even investigate the Harley materials.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyone have a Bible around somewhere? We might need to see what God says about all this.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Funny you should bring this up, since this is all that keeps me standing sometimes. Fact is, in my world it is ALL about what God wants, not what I want. Here's what God says about some of these things:

Proverbs 10:19--When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, but he who restrains his lips is wise.

Proverbs 11:12b--But a man of understanding keeps silent.

Proverbs 12:4--An excellent wife is the crown of her husband, but she who shames him is like rottenness in his bones.

Proverbs 13:3--The one who guards his mouth preserves his life; the one who opens wide his lips comes to ruin.

Proverbs 17:14--The beginning of strife is like letting out water, so abandon the quarrel before it breaks out.

Proverbs 17:28a--Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise.

Proverbs 18:6a--A fool's lips bring strife.

Proverbs 19:13b--The contentions of a wife are a constant dripping.

Proverbs 20:3a--Keeping away from strife is an honor for a man, but any fool will quarrel.

Proverbs 21:9--It is better to live in a corner of a roof than in a house shared with a contentious woman.

Proverbs 21:19--It is better to live in a desert land than with a contentious and vexing woman.

Proverbs 21:23--He who guards his mouth and his tongue guards his soul from troubles.

I Peter 3:1,2--In the same way [see I Peter 2:13-25 for Jesus' example], you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.

These are just some verses among many that showed me that I needed to keep my mouth shut.

And I take my instructions for how to behave toward my husband from I Corinthians 13:4-7, regardless of how I feel and regardless of the circumstances. I have been bought with a price, and I try to be mindful of that at all times. I also pray Isaiah 36:26 and many other scriptures daily and stand on all of the promises:

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh."

IOW, God is not finished with me yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi Nikko and Melody!

Glad to see you, too! Well, you know what I mean--not glad that we're still dealing with all this, but nice to connect with you again.

Like I posted above, I'm usually doing okay, just got frustrated and didn't want to do the wrong thing and make it worse.

I decided last year, when I couldn't take it anymore, to just give up and give it to God and let Him figure it out. It is so futile to try to get another person to change. One day it hit me that regardless of what my husband was doing or not doing, *I* certainly was not doing what God wanted me to do in lots of areas, so I decided to focus on that instead. I realized that what my H did to me is exactly what I did to God by not putting Him first in my life. I started focusing on God's pain at MY betrayal instead of my own pain caused by my H's betrayal.

Among the benefits of this is that a lot of the behaviors of my H's that hurt, angered, or irritated me disappeared. He gets all his needs met, and I have no expectations of him, so he doesn't have me to focus on. What I mean by that is that not only does he not have to worry about trying to please me, but he also doesn't have LBs from me to use as justification for his behavior anymore. I would guess that it's less comfortable to act out against someone who does everything your way and behaves kindly toward you at all times. The Bible refers to it as heaping hot coals on their head because when we get out of the way, there is less to distract them from their own conscience.

I don't take what he says or does personally anymore. I just accept that he is where he is right now. This latest thing came up and bothered me enough to post on it, but most of time I keep my focus and leave Him to God. I figure I have a big enough log in my own eye to deal with than to waste time focusing on H's splinter. I am choosing to trust God to deal with my H, and He can certainly do a way better job than I.

On the up side, I noticed that my H is reading a religious book, something he hasn't done in years, so I see that as a step in the right direction and that God is working on his heart as He is on mine. Also, a couple of weeks ago, he was mean to me and a little while later, he actually came and found me and apologized for it!!!!! I about fell out of my chair! That was only the second apology I've heard in our entire marriage (the first being the fake one on D-day).

I've heard enough testimonies of miracles to know that even my situation is not hopeless. I figured I've tried all the ways the world has to offer, so I'm content to let God do it His way. He sure can't do a worse job with my life than I already have! I've been much happier and more productive this way. The better and stronger I get, the less H bothers me, so even if he never "gets it", I'll still be okay.

Let me know if there's anything I can do to encourage you.

P.S. I had a dream last night that I married Howard Stern, and I was apparently HAPPY about it! What on earth could that mean!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ July 03, 2003, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</small>

Conqueror - flat out of time to get lengthy for now. But in the interest of trying to help someone who wants God's help, let me recommend a book to you that you might find very helpful. It would also help your husband, especially the chapter on impotence. It's called "Intended for Intimacy" by Dr. Ed and Gaye Wheat.

By the way, I gather from your response that you are a Christian. Is your husband?

Conqueror -- Like ForeverHers, I hear a lot of anger behind your silence (in your biblical quotes, anyway) -- if you've been Plan Aing for two years, it's not terribly surprising. Maybe there's some way to work on that? It may not make sex better (on the other hand, it may), but it may make YOU feel better.

And I don't blame you: after a couple years of this stuff, I'd be ready to kill.

Forever-- I read that book a long, long time ago, but I think I still have it somewhere. I'll check it out.

As far as whether my H is a Christian or not, that's something I leave up to God. The last time he talked about anything related to God was shortly after D-day, and he wanted nothing to do with God, blamed Him for abandoning him, blamed Him for the adultery and everything else yucky in his life, etc.

Oddly, though, I married him because of the relationship I thought he had with God because I thought the main problem in my previous M was being unequally yoked. And now, here I am worse off than I was before.

A.M.--

Actually, the Bible verses don't make me angry or anything. They just convinced me of the wisdom of being quiet. I chose to shut up about marital issues a few months prior to intensively studying what the Bible says about M, instructions to wives, etc.

I chose to shut up because every time I would initiate discussion about marital issues, the twaddle that came out of his mouth just made everything worse for me. The last time I opened that Pandora's box was back in January 2002, and I knew that if I heard another lame thing out of his face, I'd file the very next day. Now that I think about it, remaining silent has been a way of protecting the M from my weaknesses.

Just wanted to say "hi" to you ..... I've wondered how you're doing.

Quite an amazing path you're walking.

5-10 mimutes sounds about right to me .... but, I'm just guessng, cuz I've never been a man .... yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ July 03, 2003, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

My first thought when I saw the subject line was "my God, I am not alone." It has been 1 month post D-Day. We have made love more times in the last month than in the previous 4 years. At that time he said that I did not turn him on anymore. It was my size. (I had gained 30 lbs in 19 years , but so had He.) I put it down as his attempt to control me, shallowness and just plain juvinile thinking. I did not know about the Physical Attractiveness EN then.(it must be #1 on his list.) What I did not know is that he had been having an affair for 3.5 years before he stopped making love to me. I was so naive that I didn't know that was a major sign of an affair. He had me believing that it was all my fault because I didn't lose the weight he wanted me to. He is so CONTROLLING! Our love making has been hit and miss, on his part, since D-Day. Because I was rejected all those years I need to be physically close to him. When he can't have an erection I immediately think that he is rejecting me again over my body. I have lost several lbs thanks to being shell shocked but he admits he might not be able to get over my body not being like it was when we were married 23 years ago. Guys... is this normal? Is it only psychological? Can he change??? He is really trying to meet all of my needs.
Thanks for your help.
HB26
P.S. the OW is tall and slender. Never had Kids. Still has her "original" figure.

Conqueror -- How funny! I've been using the silence of my Plan A-/B+ in much the same way! It's one way of protecting me against hearing the lame things coming out of his mouth, and the acerbic things that would follow out of my own.

But with the minimal contact we have, I don't have to work with as much resentment and anger as you do. That's what I'm suggesting for your focus. With him across town living with the OW, my silence helps me with a near perfect Plan B+ (I don't refuse contact, but don't initiate -- and in the fog, he's not contacting much right now.) You have to deal with your anger and resentment at close range.

I also thought my H was "closer to God," so to speak. Funny how one keeps having to look towards oneself, rather than others. Like Gloria Steinem said, "We are becoming the men we wanted to marry." In spiritual things, as in the others. Well, why not?

Hey Pepper! How are you doing? I sure am glad to know about the 5-10 minute window of opportunity because I was getting quite a crick in my neck and I don't know what-all thinking that if I just went at it long enough, maybe it would help. Being a fluffer is hard work when no fluffing is happening! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Interestingly, the problem has not recurred since I started this thread.

Heartbroken, I feel for you. I also have experienced tons of rejection from my H to the point where I am indifferent to it now. I think that's why we are able to have a sex life at all--I've already experienced every rejection imaginable by him so that I have no fear of it anymore, and I just have sex because I want to have sex, or to keep the peace, or whatever. I'm no longer emotionally invested in it.

You are extremely fortunate if your H is actually trying to meet your needs. If he's making any effort at all to work on the M, then you're way ahead of where I was at 1 month post D-day, or where I am now for that matter!

A.M., The last time I tried to have a conservation with him about the M/infidelity issues, I asked, "Have you ever thought about what you might have done instead?" His answer: "I should have just said 'No' like all the other times." Stupid me, I took the bait and asked, "What other times?" And then he proceeds to tell me that women hit on him all the time. I asked him to elaborate on that. He proceeded to say they just come up to him, say they like him and ask him to come home with them. Still hoping to help him develop some insight, I asked him where he is and what he is doing when this happens. He claimed it happens all the time, everywhere. Getting more disgusted, I said, "So, this has happened at church, women I know at church have done this?" Answer: "Well, I can't remember specifically, but it probably has." I just felt like "poke me with a fork, I'm done" and that if I pursued it any further, I would go ballistic.

First of all, I had never been told of any other women hitting on him and he had already told me that HE had been the pursuer of the current OW, so then I knew that there were probably lots of OW and a whole bunch more stuff that I didn't know. I finally understood why I was discovered to have an STD when I was pregnant with our first child (his claim at that time was that one of us must have contracted it when we were single 2+ YEARS EARLIER!) and that if infidelity was going on that far back into the M, then it had probably been going on the whole time, and that I was probably married to a sex addict.

This actually made a whole lot more sense to me because I had always been amazed that it wasn't ME who had an A because I was the one who had NEVER had my ENs met in the M (2 weeks into the M, he became a different person than the one who had courted me), but I had bent over backwards to meet his because I had read HNHN prior to this M and because my previous M ended because of 1st H's infidelity, I wanted to avoid that like the plague.

So, that's why I decided to shift focus from my H and the M, the things I could not control, and instead focus on changing myself and my reactions to my H and the garbage in the M. It definitely makes for a happier life because I can actually succeed in changing myself!

<small>[ July 04, 2003, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</small>

Thanks for responding Conqueror. I am not at the point were rejection doesn't bother me. It still hurts a lot. I am wondering if some of the herbal products work. Does anyone know of a good one?
HB26