This message was inspired by ClaireL's thread on "MIL emailed me by mistake":

Something I think the BSs forget -- I certainly have -- is that no one is going to mount a big crusade on our behalf. To expect friends and family to "take sides" is to alienate potential allies. I have had to watch -- with great pain -- as "my" friends accept H and OW. I have been tempted to drop these friends.

But look at it from their point of view: if H does go forward and enter a long-term relationship with OW, at some point they will have to accept the situation. Even I will have to accept the situation. With family, especially: they are not going to disown the wayward spouse for you. To expect that is unreasonable.

I've learned something in this regard. Lostva and Orchid have told me that, after recovery, friends told them how uncomfortable they were with the "new" relationship, how much they hoped the wayward spouse would get it together. They aren't going to tell us that now, and it would put them in a tight spot if we insist they do. This is a bitter pill, but I think it's a good idea to Plan A our friends and WS's family.

Here's one lesson I've had: I saw OW embrace a good friend of mine, and I know the friend and her husband hosted an event at their house at which my H was a guest of honor -- therefore OW was there too. I was tempted to drop them.

Now the same friends might be bailing me out of a troubled housing situation, caused by the A and its effects. They are good friends, indeed. And during a recent conversation, I asked something not to be repeated to H, and she replied: "I really don't have any opportunities to say anything. I hardly see him."

I guess I'm urging a little charity for the people who might be caught in an awkward bind. And to remember to believe only half of what you see, nothing of what you hear.

Let's all try to be gracious to others during a very unpleasant time. It's good strategy: otherwise, people will gravitate towards the new "happy" couple.

<small>[ August 02, 2003, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

In other words, we have to view this more as military strategy, less "personal" all around.

<small>[ August 01, 2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Another thought for betrayed spouses that's been on my mind for awhile: a lot of you all have tags like "Sad&Weeping," "Dumped&deserted," etc.

Do you really want to feel that way about yourselves? Some of my understanding of the Harley principles is that you want to BE a person the WS wishes to come home to. I would think that the kinds of attitudes and self-images in some of the names would be a downer -- for you, for your WS, and for the goals you hope to achieve.

I'm probably offending someone, but I have wondered about this for awhile...Just something to think about.

Hells*bells ....

I've had these exact thoughts myself.

On a different infidelity forum, years ago, there was a BS who posted under the name "Burnt" .... I eventually encouraged her to re-name herself, even though her M was not going to survive. She re-named herself "Burning Bright". .... and then she got a tattoo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> LOL

Our self-names can represent our empowerment or represent our victimization.

Just backing you up!

Pep

Thanks! I was waiting for brickbats!

I also can't remember the story differences with names that have hurt, sad, need, lonely.

I agree about friends sometimes just being in an uncomfortable position. We've been reconciled 3 years now, and most friendships have worked themselves out...but there are a few relationships that for me will never again be more than surface. Couples that partied with H & OW. I've been told, "But you were separated." True, but we weren't separated until she came along--a fact that the OW tended to refute.

Our best friends managed through the grace of God to be friends to both of us and I cherish them for it. The others I forgive for distancing for a time, I really can't blame them for doing so.

OK I'll jump in , the name thing I agree and disagree .

When coming on to MB keep in mind the state of mind when people get here . They feel the need to exspress the deep pain they are in . SAD, LONELY , LOST , helpless ect....

SO it is an exsprestion they want to come across with . So I can understand the "DOWNER " in the name .

ON the note of the friend / family thing it does put many in a position and I think RADICAL HONESTY should be given there . They should not feel intemidated to chose sides and free to express them selves to the BS if they are going to carry on a relationship with WS& OP .

I my self encouraged family and freinds to continue what ever relationship they wanted .
I was fortunate that I brought A to light while I was still discovering it they where involved in the process with me in catching him INcluding his own MOTHER so they in a sense went through the process of being betrayed with ME .

In turn my ws allienated all family and friends from the beging and had NO ONE !

I was the one who then encouraged them to go forth and have a relationship with him , reminding them that THEY where there for ME but it happened to me not them ..

VEry intelligent post, amm!

Gee, I hope ol' 2long isn't 2 much of a self-downer! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Ac2ally, it's short for "2longhistory2quit", which is and always will be true and uplifting for me.

Thanks for the thread. You are right about friends and family. They're in just as tight a spot as we are. We feel more "justified" in our hurts, though, because we all 2 often think we're the only injured party in all this.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by A.M.Martin:
<strong>This message was inspired by ClaireL's thread on "MIL emailed me by mistake":

Something I think the BSs forget -- I certainly have -- is that no one is going to mount a big crusade on our behalf. To expect friends and family to "take sides" is to alienate potential allies. I have had to watch -- with great pain -- as "my" friends accept H and OW. I have been tempted to drop these friends.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I find this message to somewhat sorry and unsupported by anything factual. There may not be a crusade mounted on the BS' behalf, but the BS is best suited to mounted one on his/her initiative. The crusade of right vs. wrong. A BS does not need "friends" who accept WX and OP. "Watch with great pain?" What is that all about. What kind of a friend accepts treachery, dishonor, unfaithfulness, adultery, etc...? Are the friends on alert so that the WX and OP don't start to make moves on them and destroy their marriages? I find taking the moral high ground more important than social status. Same goes with relatives.

"What kind of a friend accepts treachery, dishonor, unfaithfulness, adultery, etc...?"

Possibly a friend who has been through something similar and recognizes that the marriage might possibly survive, and the once hated WS is now back into the loving graces of the BS.

My parents accepted their WS son-in-law as a flawed and sinful man, but they did not approve of his evil acts.

It is a very fine line for friends and family to walk between loving the sinner but hating the sin, and we should be respectful of their struggle as well.

I think so anyway.

That is NOT the same as allowing the adulterous couple to use a room at your house, telling them that adultery is "OK".

But, all opinions are good to hear.

Pep

<small>[ August 04, 2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Labeling is NOT taking the moral high ground.

By that, I mean the "right versus wrong" part. The victim and the perpetrator of the wrong. It sounds deliberate, and having an A is seldom a deliberate intent 2 do the BS wrong, though it is a choice made by the WS and the OP.

If it is simply right versus wrong, there would be no reason or purpose whatsoever 2 recovery. Just end the M.

2long

A.M.Martin,

Each situation, being different, requires a different approach. Each BS should do what works best for him or her.

-AD

<small>[ August 04, 2003, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: AD. ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Labeling is NOT taking the moral high ground.

By that, I mean the "right versus wrong" part. The victim and the perpetrator of the wrong. It sounds deliberate, and having an A is seldom a deliberate intent 2 do the BS wrong, though it is a choice made by the WS and the OP.

If it is simply right versus wrong, there would be no reason or purpose whatsoever 2 recovery. Just end the M.

2long</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure what you wrote, but it sounds like there is no right or wrong. Sorry, I am unable to deal any further with that philosophy. If you think it is labeling, then so be it because I do judge. If there is no right or wrong, then we are all playing in make-believe-land. We're playing house. "Bad" friends / "bad" relatives are bad news.

"What kind of a friend accepts treachery, dishonor, unfaithfulness, adultery, etc...?"

Possibly a friend who has been through something similar and recognizes that the marriage might possibly survive, and the once hated WS is now back into the loving graces of the BS.

I would have no problem with these people remaining friends with the ws, but that doesn't meant that the "friends/family" should accept the op OR the "relationship" and continue doing things with them as they did with the ws/bs couple. And if they DO accept the op/ws as a couple, then the bs should disance themselves from these "friends."

My parents accepted their WS son-in-law as a flawed and sinful man, but they did not approve of his evil acts.
I'll bet they didn't accept the ow though.

Chris, you got that right about not accepting the OP relationship. But my parents did accept WH back into the family ... otherwise our recovery would have been tougher than it was.

Then, there are the minor (or the major) children involved. Sometimes they have no choice but to "accept" the OP if they want their parent in their lives.

It's not fair, but it is frequently the case.

Pep

Freinds or family do not have to accecpt the A , they can state how they feel about the behavior and still remain freinds with ws And yes OP 2 !!

They may not like OP or even think much of them , but will be social so they can still be apart of there friends life .. I unfortunately think this delema falls once again into the lap of the BS .(that sucks )

You see it all goes by what you except , if you are ready to except OP with your WS then you can feel comfortable with others being around them ..

I for one pushed this on my WS during the exposing the A ,,, I told my freinds hey he did this to me ,, go ahead and invite him over with his MISS THING ,, well he couldn't handle everyone excepting it cause it wasn't supposed to be out in the open he was embaressed and felt judged by them .

Inturn It pissed OP off so bad and mad her understand she was nothing more then a closet HO !

LOL

OK thats my 2 cents ,, I never felt my family /freinds / in-laws OWED it to me to take a stand , I knew they did not approve of A's but I knew that if D happened not everyone would walk away from him ..

I have very close friends like family and even after being a BS I can't say I would not be friends with someone who had an A .. I would give them a piece of my mind and the OP 2 if given Oppertunity but could still be friends with them ..

I can't say I would not be friends with someone who had an A .. I would give them a piece of my mind and the OP 2 if given Oppertunity but could still be friends with them ..
In other words, you would "okay" their relationship?

And you don't believe enough in your own principles to make a stand?

It's one thing to remain friends with the ws and also with the op, if they were your friend previously. However to accept them in their relationship is something totally different. You don't have to invite them (as a couple) anywhere.

<small>[ August 04, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Whew! I did set off a firestorm, here! Well, these issues are good to discuss.

Okie, I can't speak for everyone, but in this one I really am fighting against the Dark Side. I'm not saying that just because it's me, and not even because it's an A, but by internal evidence to the event itself. This thing comes straight from the Heart of Darkness.

That said, I find that no one wants to join me on this great crusade, if I present it in those terms. If I hint at that, they think the problem is me, protecting my self-interest. THEY have to see this FOR THEMSELVES, without any sermons from me. The more neutral I am, the more they -- at least a few of them -- are coming to the same conclusions, and then I can support their conclusions. The more hysterical and self-righteous I am, the more they marginalize ME. This requires so much patience, but it is a long war.

That's why I've come to see this more and more AS a war -- and metaphysically, it probably is. The general has to keep himself in good psychological shape for the battles ahead. He can't use all his ammo on small side skirmishes (like arguing with friends and family, who can't do much anyway). He can't expect to win every battle, and he must anticipate setbacks. He has to outlast the enemy. He has to not take things "personally." He has to not focus on his hurt feelings. If this is the Heart of Darkness, than it's not "personal" at all. And he will lose soldiers in the fight, and can't cry over each one of them. I am going to lose friends -- many have defected already -- and I have to focus on the troops I have. This keeps me from sinking into the "How COULD they?" emotions, which don't help anyone. Least of all me.

I see lots of people here taking the high moral road, and it's extremely dangerous to classify oneself as a "good person." It can make one self-righteous, proud, and bitter. I may be taking the high moral road on this one, but there but for the grace of God go I. It's better to be humble. And, as a military strategy, better to be cheerful in public, and have a great time. It attracts more allies. (But don't expect much from anyone!) Plus it conserves my strength for what lies ahead.

<small>[ August 04, 2003, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Lets face it IF IF a ws really is with the OP , then there are people who have to take a stand and there are MANY resaons MANY that some one would be put in the possion of being with or even inviteing both the WS and OP as a couple ..

I would take a stand for what I belive , I would leave the ball in my nfreinds court , I would explain I don't want to be friends with there OP , in anyway , I will not speack to the person unless I tottaly have to , but I will socialize with them in order to keep the friendship , But I do not have to BE "FRIENDS " with OP ..(sorry used wrong words before )

Another example : MY friends , not one of them thought I should take FWS back EVER ,, they belive a person who has an A is a low life and they deserve no respect let alone love from anyone (ME) .. Now they took a stand , but did they really ? I am with H and we are all together as good as we always were (hang out drink talk ect.)

Now if they really felt that way and I didn't tell them back then that this is something ws did to me and though you hate what he did , he is still the same friend to you as he always was .

Then that attitude would have caused a peoblem when we got back together ..

I don't know if I am expressing this right , I hope so ..

I do also think friends/ family should be honest and not hide a freindship or any relationship from the BS ..

Oh heavens, I will never be friends with OW, and I avoid all her henchmen. But I just can't get into the business of grilling my friends to find out who is hosting the wayward couple. It will just hurt me, and it won't change them. My H is a powerful person -- though this status may change as events unfold -- and there is more self-interest in currying favor with him than standing up for me. I'm surprised by how many people HAVE stood up for me.

As for people having affairs being low lifes -- well, we can't know who among our acquaintances and friends have had As, or under what circumstances. And many of us have done things worse -- wrath and pride and envy, after all, are also among the Seven Deadlies. Who knows what lies behind our faces? I'm in favor of charity -- which doesn't mean being a patsy.

<small>[ August 04, 2003, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>