MM:

I think it was sweet what your W said 2 you. But it's also telling. You got a glimpse of her viewpoint on all of this. Just remember that there are always going 2 be 2 sides 2 what happened 2 you. I think you're going 2 be fine, but it will take time.

"But I am saying that as spiritual leader, God gives men tools to lead that women are not born with."

welll....... You know? a hundred years ago women were generally thought 2 be frail and unable 2 deal with complex subjects on their own. A famous astronomer, Annie Jump Cannon, had a heckuva an uphill battle in a world of males. Science at the time in particular was very male-dominated. But the truth? Look at now. Women are just as capable as men 2 do demanding things.

Your quote above is real old testament stuff. Now, I know that there is male-dominance stuff in the new testament, 2, and maybe it's "right" for you and maybe not. I won't judge.

...I'm just glad I won't have 2 duck when Star throws a toaster your way!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

MM-Hello!

I think this is the first time I have posted to you.

Like everyone else, I look up to your usually right on observations and advice.

A couple of thoughts....in another lifetime, long ago, I was married to an evangelist/teacher type...this advice was given to us when I insisted that we go into pastoral counseling for problems in our marraige....and I will say, in marraige as you have outlined it, the men carry the bigger burden, have the tougher job.

So, as the head of the household, are you doing absolutely everything that you can to guard your own flanks? If Satan is using her to get at the family, are you doubly protecting her weak spots, whatever those may be? As identified by you and her together?

In my previous marraige, my experience at the times when I was the happiest and the most in love with my husband was this....

Regardless of the man he was or thought that he should be....every single time that he made the choice and was able to be man that I needed, I was able to relax and be more of the woman that he wanted...in every way...and be incredibly blissful doing so....it was so strange how that worked, and I'd have never predicted it, but it did...

Too bad my XH never picked up on that very well, or for very long....

My brain has already gone off on a couple of other tangents....I'll explore them in my head, and see if there's any other thoughts or observations that could be helpful from wife POV...

Gosh, I'm so scattered...my other thought is this..

You don't have to give up leadership to the woman to have problems...all you have to do is fail to protect...

Although giving away the farm is the extreme of what I see that you are are saying, I'll bet all you are looking for is a hole(s) in the fence....

I heard some tapes once about the Adam/Eve thing...and how that played out...who did what and when and why...The final analysis from the teachers' POV was that the biggest tools that Satan used to defeat Adam and Eve were these...assumptions, expectations and failure to communicate between the husband and the wife....

<small>[ August 06, 2003, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>

MM

Not a lot I can add to the great advice above, but here goes for what it is worth.

I think your wife is scared, and probably doesn't even trust or like herself right now. How you get through this has been covered above - I think you need to try and implement the negotiation process, to show her you can be there for her and meet her needs, but that she needs to address yours too.

Once last, but important point.

You took your wife back under the conditions of the plan B letter - that she implemented NC with OM, agreed a plan of marital recovery and began implementation of that. It sounds like the last condition (and possibly the second last) haven't been met. There are several examples in SAA (and other Harley books) of the yo-yo effect where there can be alternating between 'in the marriage' and 'out of it'. You are in a process of recovery. The outcome of that process is either reconciliation or the end of the marriage. If you have done everything you can towards achieving reconciliation, but your wife won't meet the plan B conditions, divorce/ending the marriage is still your entitlement and the best exit from a horrible situation for you, your kids and indeed your wife.

S.

Using my old ID here, as I have forgotten my new password and I'm at work-
But I wanted to drop you a quick line to let you know that my thoughts and prayers are with you as you struggle through this Recovery Hurdle.
You will get past it, I am sure of that. Keeping a level head at ALL times is near impossible, emotions do erupt, sometimes when you least expect it, but it's how you interact later that matters most. Apologizing, good, negotiating, good...you know what to do.
Keep us posted, Shugah

She said "Look, MM…the counselor we saw before I came back and I told you that I was coming back for the kids. That I am never going to be the wife I was before to you, or to anyone."

MM,

I hope you don't mind that I jump in with my two cents.

This statement should have given you the very first question to ask.

I notice that she said...never going to be THE wife I was to you before instead of A wife like I was before. There is a big difference to me.

Naturally, so much as transpired that you will never have THE marriage that you had before. But, you still want to have A marriage with her.

Now, here's the question that I mentioned earlier...

Did you return to this marriage wanting to be A wife to me in every sense of the word?

I do not think that is putting her on the spot to simply ask that question. She returned with an attitude of what YOU were going to do to keep her there (imho) not what SHE needed to do to work toward recovery.

I have seen postings from truly remorseful WSs that have repeatedly told people the same thing to measure sincerity. "What do 'I' need to do to put us back on the road to recovery"? "I will do whatever it takes to repair this marriage". I do not see where that is taking place within your marriage. I have not read of any remorse from her. If I remember correctly she did not want you to go to her graduation...because of how it would look to people for them to know that she was back with you. That was your first RED flag. You were not her first priority then, her pride was.

All the SF talk...all the FS talk will not be any good until you get a straight upfront answer from her about being "A WIFE". If she repeats that she came back FOR THE KIDS I guess you will know exactly where you stand. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I hope that what I have posted hasn't dampened the spirit of the thread...that she is just having problems that you might not know about. I really feel that there is no starting place until you get that answer.

JMHO
committed

these are the posts in which I am lost....
I haven't been in your shoes...
I am at a loss...

What I see though as a somewhat outside observer to the emotions/process is an area that frustrates me and saddens me...

One of the tragic fall outs and hurdles in recovery and even negotiating recovery is the ever changing real and perceived power shifts that occur between husband and wife...

That in of itself appears so difficult to me...

the gammit of emotions...
the BS put in this position of simple conflicts and crisis...reflecting back to the WS as you are
"all bad"... "blamed for all that is not right"
etc...

So that simple (if there is such a thing) are magnified through this emotional measure...

The WS guilty of some really hurtful behavior...but trying to still be a person with the needs for understanding, compassion...AND accepting those things with out the baggage of "everything" is to blame...

I see this when WS say they can't come back because of all the pain and hurt they have caused...that avoiding is always easier than facing..

The last thing a real marriage should be is a struggle for control or power over eachother...and yet the fall out of an affair appears to often place each person in this exact position....even when that is the last thing they desire...on both sides....

Mortarman...could it be that some of this is part of that???

That through no ones fault or blame but through the nature of the beast of an affair...that actions that each believe are steps that are positive building steps...are misinterrperted as control over the other....

That your viewing of the financial issues getting settled and under control are viewed by her as factual evidence of her mistakes....

And while you see it as lets work on it together ..she views it as a focus of yours to "punish" and force her to see consequances of her bad behavior...
making her feel that while you do mean and speak of forgiveness and moving away from all that garbage...she sees it has a big driving force of yours to blame???

And it's only a question....
That you see the fixing of the financial stuff as a positive step...she sees it has look at what you did?????????

I am lost here....so forgive me if I am way off...

That I am never going to be the wife I was before to you, or to anyone."

Can that be spun positively??....
can you agree with that sentiment that you don't want her to be the "same" before the affair...and that you also have no desire to be the same husband you were before to her, or to anyone???

I think so...What if you could empower her and tell her that you support her 1000% in that...
perhaps that can give her some footing...

Can she see or hear about how the avoidance and ignoring of the financial issues can trigger you...that those behaviors are similiar to traits used to carry out an affair...
neglecting, ignoring, avoiding...

You are in my prayers mortarman...
wishing you serenity and clarity...
ARK

MM-

I've been reading and thinking and reading some more. I wondered what I could say that other's haven't. I agree with much that has been said.

I think your wife is scared. I think she is still withdrawing from the FOG. I don't necessarily mean that she's still interested in OM, more that she hasn't yet figured out HER accountability and responsibilites for the "A".

As JL pointed out - HI JL!!!
She is still carrying anger with her and that anger is what led to her straying in the first place. Unless she addresses it and gets that epiphany which leads to her waking up, you will be going around in circles with her.

Someone els said it so clearly and I want to reinforce that opinion. IS your W remourseful for her actions? Has she reached a point where she would DO anything for the recovery of the M? You KNOW in your heart the answer to that. If the answer is "NO" then there is much work ahead for both of you.

I don't believe for a minute that she came back for the kids only, and neither do you. If that was true, then you wouldn't have been able to get to a place where you feel love for her again. My take on it, She's afraid and she threw that in your face because she knew it would be effective on getting you riled up and hurt.

Now, you can turn this into a positive for yourself by using the argument to open the door. Sit down with your W, when you're both calm and brainstorm about the issues.

First, Identify them. Then, put each problem on a sheet of paper, fold them up and place into a fishbowl. When you're ready - pull one out at a time and work towards a solution to THAT issue only. POJA all the way or it doesn't get resolved.

I think she wants it just as much as you do, but is afraid.

Women give SEX to get love. Guys give love to get sex. Keep giving love and don't demsnd SEX. It will happen.

Hugs-

MM as you've experienced first hand, recovery is NOT easy and it can be harder than dealing with an on going A.

Even though you already know this, it's important to remind you of it: If you truly want to rebuild your marriage, you first must conquer your RESENTMENT. One resentment fueled love buster can withdraw a huge number of love unit deposits in your W's love bank.

But you may ask yourself 'How do I conquer my resentment?' By changing your mental attitude with regards to your W to a positive one. Make a list of ALL the positive things about your W that you can think of. Keep adding to it on a daily basis. Acknowledge these positives to her to help her see that you are aware of them and appreciate them. Aren't we attracted to people who hold us in high regard? of course we are, and your W is no exception. Positivity is resentment's poison and negativity is its food source.

MM

There is a possibility that this is her new reality. She has all the power and control and this relationship will evolve per her direction. She may not relinquish this power cheerfully.

In my situation, I did a plan A (although I had no idea it was called that) resulting in moving back together following separation. This gave my wife the power in the relationship – any attempt by me to voice unmet needs resulted in hostility and punishment (cold shoulder, etc) This continued for about 6 months to the point I was ready to divorce. I didn’t threaten; I just took a job in another state and moved. I explained my position on the marriage and left it up to her to either follow or not, but I could not continue living in the current situation. She did follow, she did change, and we now have a very good marriage now about 10 years later.

A couple of random thoughts:

Things of value require work and sacrifice. You appear to be hers no matter what – no work on her part, no sacrifice è possibly no value.

Five months of purposeful denial of SF would be grounds for divorce. This a fundamental need (for me) and denial of such is mental cruelty.

My suggestion is to non-emotionally evaluate what you want in life and ascertain if you are on a path to get there. IC is good method for doing this. If what you are now doing doesn’t work – stop doing it.

Finally, don’t kick yourself for giving your wife this “last” chance. Your kids will learn forgiveness and understanding from these actions.

Take care,

Bob

MM,

I promised that I would get back to you however now that I have, I see that most of my thoughts have already been covered by others. Keep trying to move forward slowly, with understanding, and express your feelings without pressure. NW

You OK???

ARK

Everyone,

Thanks for the support. what you have posted got me to dive back into my research. Added to that, my wife dropped "Love Must Be Tough" in my lap last night before she left for work and wanted me to read a part of it that had to do with respect. She has been reading that book lately (I had purchased it and read it last fall). It has some amazing stuff there the fact that my wife wanted me to read that passage was good because she still shows she is trying to find her way through this. but the stuf she wanted me to read was eye opening because it describes why my wife has "cooled" some in our relationship since she got home.

So, I will try to post later today on what I found. I definitely would like to say that everyone should get a copy of this book. It is very good dealing more in depth with what the Harleys are talking about in Plan A and Plan B.

More soon...

In His arms.

quote:
If anyone knows of one out there, or a good book that will help lay out a plan like this (in addition to the Good Book, of course) I would appreciate it!

And then a day later............

Added to that, my wife dropped "Love Must Be Tough" in my lap last night before she left for work and wanted me to read a part of it that had to do with respect.

Isn't it great how God works?

_________________________________________________

Yes, I would recommend reading (or rereading it)
"A Story For Valentine's Day" from the book "Chicken Soup for the Soul"........

This man learned what it is all about to truly learn what a woman needs.

Good luck

KeepMoving,

Thanks for showing me the Hand of God. Sometimes it is hard to see. But most times, it is right there where you can see it.

He is amazing, isnt He?

In His arms.

MM: I had to resurrect this thread to ask you a question: Are you putting your wife in God's place? I think one of the weaknesses of Harley's approach is that it is way too easy to do that (I did). Or am I just projecting?

It was realy hard for me to get to the point where I looked to God to fulfill my needs, not my wife. (Which is not to say He can't use her as His instrument.) In fact, I'm not there yet, to be perfectly honest. But I do understand that that is where I am supposed to be going.

John,

Thanks for the reply. Didnt even notice it there for awhile!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM: I had to resurrect this thread to ask you a question: Are you putting your wife in God's place? I think one of the weaknesses of Harley's approach is that it is way too easy to do that (I did). Or am I just projecting?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have struggled with this. To an extent, I have. I know I must trust the Lord to meet ALL of my needs, and that He will probably do so through my wife (like SF). And I am trying. But just like last night and this morning, she just keeps talking about how she doesnt trust me, how she thinks we might be incompatible now (when we werent before all of this!). That she cannot even imagine us being together like that. And so on.

She isnt going to counseling, she isnt even back in church. She went last month once. That's it. She seems to think that the way things are right now are fine. That we have the homelife going again. And the kids. And we spend time together watching TV. And she has her new job. And now, she is starting school again to get her Bachelors. She spends all of her time on herself (hari, nails, gym), work and school. She spends some time on the kids and us as a family. No time on me or meeting any of my needs.

It wasnt like that when she first came home. She was sincerely trying to do things and to engage me. But almost 6 months later, we are moving further apart...not closer together. She is upset because I wont let thinsg be. I am upset because letting things be is how we got in this mess in the first place. I told her that I would have all the patience in the world if she was doing SOMETHING. But she is doing nothing, at least on meeting any of my needs or at least addressing our problems.

She says she cant argue anymore. And I agree. She says stuff like "well, what do you want me to do?" She uses small things to say why she isnt getting closer ("look, you didnt even put all the dishes in the dishwasher last night...how can I get closer when you continue to not to do the things I need"). But that isnt true. I spend hours and hours bending over backward to meet her needs. Look what she jsut said about me NOT meeting her needs then in the same breath, a few minutes later....after I pointed out that I am doing SO many things for her, she then says "Stop trying so hard."

So which is it? Either I am not meeting her needs OR I am doing too many things and trying too hard.

I know the drill. The problem is, while the fog of the affair was around, I knew the culprit. I have no idea, 6 months later, what the problem REALLY is or how to confront it. Maybe she is right...maybe she has so screwed up the way she views me that she cannot possibly get in an intimate relationship with me.

I do know that she needs to probably see a counselor about all of this. But she is "too tired" or "too busy." When I force things, and tell her I am not happy and want her to get into counseling and/or work with me here, she just looks at me and says that she cant do that right now and "What do you wnat me to do?"

So, I am stuck. like I told someone else on here, the affair was much easier to deal with than recovery. Especially when I have a wife who dropped the OM, but is unwilling so far to do anything to move things forward...and when asked, will go negative and say that she doesnt feel like things can ever move forward.

Now, that negativity would be easy to handle if she didnt try to have it both ways. Just yesterday, in my presence, she told of how a friend of hers (who is having problems with her kids and with her marriage) is the one she will call in the morning and talk to...and then realize she doesnt have it so bad.

So, it is almost fog like. But there is no OM now. I am sure of that. So, some say "Dont pressure." But I really dont. She says I should back off. But if I back off anymore, I'll be out of the house.

Then she says that she doesnt like it when I back off, and just shut down. That I just head up to bed.

Well ,which is it...back off or engage? Very frustrating here, and this has led to increased arguments. Of course, when I dotn say anything and just sit back and let things go..there are no arguments and she seems relatively happy. But then she comes home from work two days ago, and cries herself to sleep. I ask her what the problem was. She said she had a bad day at work. But then went on to say that she has done all this work over the last few years to better her life, and she has gotten nowhere. I asked her about that, and she said she meant nowhere in her personal life.

I told her that maybe if she put half the effort into her personal life that she puts into her professional life, that she might see some results.

Anyway, I am rambling. Very frustrating though. I really have stopped LBing. No demands (although I have continued to try to get intimate with her). No yelling or threats of divorce. She asks what i want her to do, I just tell her that I want her to step up and be my friend again and my wife. she says she doesnt know how to or if she can do that anymore.

So, now what?

In His arms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mortarman:

"So, now what?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you considered doing some snooping around?

Coffeeman,

Oh, that was my first thought. And so I have. No eveidence so far of any contact with OM, or with a new OM. I havent done a thorough search though, like I did last year. Just hitting the highlights to see if anything looks suspicious. So far...nothing.

So unless I am getting hoodwinked (which might be a VERY small possibility), then let's assume that there is no more affair.

That leaves me with what?

In His arms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mortarman:

"I havent done a thorough search though, like I did last year."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I strongly suggest you do so again. Remember that she's probablu got some experience in hiding things a lot better than she did last year. I pray that I'm dead wrong about this but it is wise to heed the old saying 'hope for the best but prepare for the worst'.