Hiker, I think whether your W hears the complete detailed story should be her decision. From what you've said, she does want to hear everything (the database sounds like something I'd do - except I put mine in an Excel spreadsheet). This indicates someone who really needs to know everything. I never gave my FWH the option - I pretty much asked questions over and over again throughout the first 3-4 months. I needed to hear the details several times so I could try to process everything.

My FWH had a completely different concept about openness and honesty than I did - which derailed our recovery several times. Much like your going to the group "loss of relationship" counseling, my H decided to take some medication without telling me. Finding out was the equivalent of another D-Day to me: he had been lying about something that had a dramatic impact on him, and our relationship. He was dumbfounded about my point of view, and anger - he thought he was doing a good thing. To me, openness meant not lying to direct questions, and more importantly, sharing his life with me. I can completely empathize with your wife's opinion on this one!

Please have the conversation with her about what openness and honesty mean to each of you, and what kind of details and communications *she* needs to hear from you. And I would encourage her to come to this site as well.

I think whether your W hears the complete detailed story should be her decision.
Abolutely! Give her what she asks for. If she says, "tell me about the affir" that doesn't mean you should give all the nitty gritty details. But it's not that you are "holduing back to keep from hurting her". If she asks for details, give them to her.

(the database sounds like something I'd do - except I put mine in an Excel spreadsheet)
What are ya', a bunch of geeks?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

My S didn't make a spread sheet what she did was take phone(cell) bills, primarily, and write down all the contacts; me to OW, OW to me both voice or text messages, on a calendar. She also indicated what she was doing during those times. W wanted to find out how she missed all of the action between OW and I. It was a pretty graphic picture. Then she wanted to know, which I told her about all of our face to face meetings (no pun intended). I gave her the dates and details of those as well.

Dear Hiker,

When you had the A, you built a wall around you and OW, and you walled your W out.

Now you have given up OW. It's scary and lonely. There are alot of things you can feel in an A that are "good feelings"- warmth, admiration, excitement, power, ego, fun etc. When you end the A, you are left with a hole- your spouse is devastated and most likely unable to be as fun and attractive as your affair partner. The work of rebuilding is hard, and results don't come overnight.

The thing to remember is that had you ended your marriage to pursue a future with OW, most likely those "good feelings" would have evaporated because as Steve H would say, your relationship is founded on selfishness, lies and deceit. You have 33 years of history together with your wife, as well as your family, and the loss would have left you with a huge hole (had you chosen OW).

I do believe in honesty, but there are different ways to say things. BSs feel threatened, put down, rejected--- you need to be sensitive to that. Hearing "I miss OW" is hard for a BS. Better to say, "I miss the way OW made me feel... I would like to have that feeling with you in time".

Honestly think about the A and try to pick up on any negatives you felt and make sure your wife knows about them. If you felt uncomfortable or ashamed or nervous... make sure your wife knows!

Hiker:

I agree with toomuchcoffeeman completely. After I found out about my H's A, and we started working on our marriage, I frequently heard details I did not need to. And as toomuchcoffeeman indicated, it did more harm than good. Whenever I heard something new about the OW, I backed off my H and it put us back some.

Let your W know that you are willing to tell her what she thinks she needs to know and don't be surprised if one day she says she doesn't want to hear any more and the next she asks for more details. Based on my own experience, the desire to know everything ebbs and flows with how the BS is feeling.

And when you do tell your W things you expect might hurt her, be ready to give her time and space to process the information. Just because she asks for information doesn't mean she's not going to be upset over it.

<small>[ November 11, 2003, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: TooTired4Words ]</small>

Is it the person you miss (in the OW), or what she represents?

Is it the person you miss or the excitement, admiration, attention, etc? The newness of the R without years of resentment?

How can you get this from your W?

After my H's A I looked at things she could give him and I tried to give him those things. We made the mistake of me having to guess what needs he wanted fulfilled. Be honest and articulate those needs to your W, she sounds willing!

As I search within myself I think there are two dimensions in which I miss OW. The first is missing her as a person. To go into all the things that made her important to me brings up too many feelings and it is those very feelings that I am having a difficult time purging from my heart. Somehow OW "bridged the gap" in my lonliness and offered me a refuge from my desolate existance. Secondly I miss the romance, adventure and the "wrongness" of the A. I looked forward to seeing her each day even though most of the time we could only share "nine words". Our interests were very different, perhaps because there were a few years between us, thirteen to be exact. It has been two years and four months since D-Day and I still feel this attachment that I cannot seem to break. It seems to be easier for OW. She ended the A, she stopped all comunication. She said to comunicate was "not fair to our spouses" that's an understatement. I wasn't her first A. It didn't matter to me but I did want to be "the last man" in her life. I feel I need some cathartic experience to bring that chapter in my life to a close but all I do is keep adding pages to it. Pages filled with empty desire. Perhaps if she had said "good-bye" or "I love you" as she "closed the door", I could have carried away a completed book that I could have placed on the shelf of my heart.

<small>[ October 14, 2003, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Hiker ]</small>

**Warning and Disclaimer** - non MB comments to follow:

Oh geez - I thought your signature line had to be a typo with respect to D-Day, and you meant July 2003. Your mistress ended your affair more than two years ago, and you still feel this way? After two years of no contact, you are disappointed every day that you don't have a voicemail from her, and still obsess about her?

I understand much better your reluctance to come clean to your wife. I would be devastated to hear that after this much time my H was still so deeply in love with another woman, and that apparently nothing I could do would make a difference. And to be honest, I would end my relationship in that circumstance.

I simply cannot understand what kind of a marriage you have, or want. And it sounds like both you and I are dumbfounded that you are unable to move on.

I'll stay out of these threads and let the nicer, more understanding people respond and try to help.

Sorry I've mis-lead you. OW and I continued to talk by phone and e-mail up and until this last August and then stopped all contact

Hiker...

I'm jumpin in on this...probably head first...not a good idea usually...
so disregard as it suits you...
BUT....

You are living the way you are living based on your choices...
and what is known to you verses what is unknown...

You are making some mistakes that are not serving you well at all...

Somehow OW "bridged the gap" in my lonliness and offered me a refuge from my desolate existance.

desolate existance...huh??
really? if that is how you view yourself and your world and your universe....then you need a psychiatrist....and i don't say that to be mean...I say that sincerely with concern...
sounds pretty lonely....
AND if you really believe that is/was your existance...
AND beleive that somehow this OW or any other person in the world has the power, control, or ability to free YOU from such an existance...
you are set up to fail...

NO ONE
no ONE
NO ONE
out there....can make us happy...only us...

sound too much like psycho babble...and yet you are the one that believes she can save you from this...

No wonder you can't let go of her...what power she has...
what a system you have established to keep the need of her alive in your world...

what a lot of pressure the ow is/was under to be soley responsible for all that is well and good in your universe...

You yourself keep all this alive....there's no mystery...
you nuture your belief in her ability to make these things right in your world...never seeking the ability within yourself...

So how is this serving you...because you do gain from it..
you gain not facing the fact that it is you in control of your destiny, happiness and change...
not her or anyone else...
but keep her responsible for all that is good in the world...and you don't have to do a thing...

two years hiker...and yet you choose every day to entertain these thoughts..
it is a choice...
it is you who give her the power and control over you....you are not a victim...

So again I may be accused of being mean..
but even Dr. Phil would ask you

How's this working for ya??

ARK

ARK
Obviously it hasn't worked too well because I am here. OW said to me once that she "wasn't the answer to what was missing in my life".

I have gained understanding of what is going on inside of me through reading, and counseling. I have learned:

I've aquired unhealthy ways of relating to others

I have difficulty in intimate relationships

Stuffed feelings

Don't express emotion because it hurts so much and when I do it is over dramatized

I didn't talk, feel or trust

I was isolated and afraid

Have taken on compulsive behaviors

I have always been terrified of abandonment
Most of this was due to being brought up in an alcoholic family.

Of course I've compunded the issue by bringing OW into my life but I felt there was this void and I needed to try to fill it.

This impulsivity lead to confusion, self loathing and loss of control of my environment. As a result like, so many others who were brought up in a similar fashion, I've spent more energy cleaning up the mess than would have been spent had the alternatives and consequences been examined in the first place.
The good news is that I have shared all of this with my W to help her see the "big" picture of me. Not to make excuses for the A because no matter how one looks at it, it was wrong and the bottom line is the A cannot be justified ever. I can only try to understand why it happened so that it can never happen again

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KS41:
<strong>
**= my comments
Oh geez - I thought your signature line had to be a typo with respect to D-Day, and you meant July 2003. Your mistress ended your affair more than two years ago, and you still feel this way?

** e-mail phone contact stopped 08/03

I understand much better your reluctance to come clean to your wife. I would be devastated to hear that after this much time my H was still so deeply in love with another woman

**I have "come clean" as you say here

I simply cannot understand what kind of a marriage you have, or want. And it sounds like both you and I are dumbfounded that you are unable to move on.

***In reality I am moving on. It is going slower than I would like but I believe we are making progress. The "kind of marriage" I want is not much different than what most people want: one of love,companionship and honesty(of course there is more than these 3). I know that I haven't lived up to that ideal and I am striving to work on our present and future life together. I cannot undo the past but I certainly can work on not making the same or similar mistakes in the future. Of course I wasn't honest with my wife and myself. I do know that I still love her and incredibly she continues to love me. We both want the intimacy that we lost or perhaps never really had back again.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Somehow OW "bridged the gap" in my lonliness and offered me a refuge from my desolate existance </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Looking outside yourself for happiness? Sounds like you are playing hte elusive "If only..." game.

If only I had more money......I'd be happy.
If only I had a nicer car.....women would like me.


Advertising feeds on the "If only...." game and you have bought inot it. (Haven't we all, don't get me started on Christmas).

The OW made you happy for a time, so you think you're happiness is locked away with her, you can't be happy without her. Just not true, you were happy with her for awhile, but it would have passed and you would have been playing the "If only..." game with her too (If only she would wear that red dress she had on when we first met.)

It's like a drug addict looking for that crazy, euphoric, kissing God cherry high they had the first time. But is a drug (love or excitement) truly happiness and serenity, or an overload of chemicals and hormones that imitate happiness.

You had the imitation of happiness, and think it's real. What is real happiness for you? YOU!!!

How do you find you? The group could probably help, are you still in it? Talking, talking, talking with your W. Be honest, your feelings and YOU are valuable, and she wants to hear it!!!

SHMI,
I agree with you that I was living out this fantasy with OW. You said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The OW made you happy for a time, so you think you're happiness is locked away with her, you can't be happy without her. Just not true, you were happy with her for awhile, but it would have passed and you would have been playing the "If only..." game with her too </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are good words for me to read and I must keep reminding myself of them. I just wish I could stop hitting these "speed bumps". I realize the reality it is just hard to believe it. Here is a short autobiography:

1) I walk down a street. There is a deep whole in the side walk. I fall in. I am lost...I am hopeless. It isn't my fault. It takes forever to find a way out.
2) I walk down the same street. There is a deep hole in the side walk. I pretend I don't see it. I fall in again. I can't believe I am in the same place. But it isn't my fault. It still takes a long time to get out.
3) I walk down the same street. There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I see it is there. I still fall in...it's a habit. My eyes are open. I know where I am. It is my fault. I get out immediatly.
4) I walk down the same street. There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I walk around it.
5) I walk down another street.
(by Portia Nelson)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1) I walk down a street. There is a deep whole in the side walk. I fall in. I am lost...I am hopeless. It isn't my fault. It takes forever to find a way out.
2) I walk down the same street. There is a deep hole in the side walk. I pretend I don't see it. I fall in again. I can't believe I am in the same place. But it isn't my fault. It still takes a long time to get out.
3) I walk down the same street. There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I see it is there. I still fall in...it's a habit. My eyes are open. I know where I am. It is my fault. I get out immediatly.
4) I walk down the same street. There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I walk around it.
5) I walk down another street.
(by Portia Nelson)

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd add #6) I stop walking and I take the car. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
#7) I make sure that my wife drives because if I'm that clumbsy "walking" I surely need her help "driving". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hiker,
hope you're doing ok.

take care
bb

Oh boy . see I never see the obvious... of course "take the car" what was I thinking??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
and let my wife drive but somtimes she scares meee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hiker,

at the risk of sounding tough..which perhaps I am...I am because I believe that so much of this is you in your control to change...
I realize that change is scary scary scary..but at some point you decide that change is less scary than feeling the same miserable way day after day...

and to be perfectly honest people overcome way more miserable experiences...and come out the
other side...

I hope you are on antidepressants...life is not as dismal as you portray it....nor is it as lonely....

joy, happiness, passion, are not things that happen to us...they are things we create...
by our own perspective...and once our brain starts firing it pathways in a negative way..it is very easy to fall into a rut...but logically then it is true that our brains can fire pathways that follow a more positive route as well...both take energy and conscious re-direction at times...but letting them neurons fire in the same negative way over and over ...serves us very little...

I have difficulty in intimate relationships
OK...so what five specific actions are you doing to stop having difficulty...what exact actions are you taking to turn this statement into a past tense?

Have taken on compulsive behaviors

are you seeking professional help with the behaviors...specifically the ones that are interfering with your daily living?

I have always been terrified of abandonment
well that's an interesting statement...but it serves no purpose...

no one likes to be abandoned...thats normal...we all get that...
and even if you feel/believe that your OW abandoned you...
guess what..
you are still here.
you survived it
the sun still shines...so what you fear is here and gone...
and is it selective abandonment?
does that fear serve to keep the Ow alive and kicking.
...for perhaps you should be more afraid your wife is going to abandon you...
perhaps that is a more realistic fear
perhaps she should...
and I don't mean that cruelly...for YOU engage in exact activities (long affair) that potentially lead to what you fear...abandonment...

Be a victim to this cycle...or break it...

I've spent more energy cleaning up the mess than would have been spent had the alternatives and consequences been examined in the first place.

are you cleaning up..or are you stuck...

I can only try to understand why it happened so that it can never happen again

well I believe that understanding...may at times get to much air time...that understanding may be helpful..but it can also stop us from moving on..for maybe it was what it was... maybe
we did what we did...and that there may be no great answer..

but just a lot of small doubts and beliefs and justifications that we let seep into our lives and brains....and came to believe in them just enough to rationalize our painful choices and behavior....
on the surface...while deep down knowing the real reasons why...was because day after day we just chose to act and do those things...

and the more elaborate the web we weaved to justify...the easier it is to try now to sit back and justify...what was just unjustifiable...

you need to understand instead of just excepting what was was...may be hindering you as well...and keeping you from going forward...

ARK

Dear ARK,

You seem to always give me so much to think about that I keep going back and forth re-reading what you have written... I find it encouraging. I guess you could say I am the "drama king"... I know that I overstate when I write but it is easier for me to express what I am feeling when I write.

ARK
Let me try to respond:
**=me


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so what five specific actions are you doing to stop having difficulty...what exact actions are you taking to turn this statement into a past tense? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">** 5? I share everything with my W... there are no secrets


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">are you seeking professional help with the behaviors...specifically the ones that are interfering with your daily living? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">** yup

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">no one likes to be abandoned...thats normal...we all get that...
and even if you feel/believe that your OW abandoned you...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">**got it!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">guess what..
you are still here.
you survived it</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">** Thanks I needed that

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you need to understand instead of just excepting what was was...may be hindering you as well...and keeping you from going forward...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">acceptance is a key word for me especially of myself...I'll work on it

Hiker
I am glad I am not being to "mean"

also ACCEPT (except) my apologies for my spelling...
did one of those over night shifts with little sleep when I posted... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> good grief...

ARK