There was a recent article in which the writer said that when it comes to affairs, men are less forgiving towards their unfaithful wives than the reverse. This is not the first time I read the same assertion about men's level of forgiveness in comparison with women's, but if that is the case, then why is it that women file for divorce at a rate of twice that of men? Granted that a lot of the women who file for divorce may not be doing it because of their H's infidelity, but the rate of filings is still high enough that the assertion of men being less forgiving than women when it comes towards affairs is very questionable.

Could it possibly be that when men have affairs, the majority of the time they are NOT doing it because they have given up on the marriage, and thus are more likely to quickly ask for forgiveness from their wives? . Yet when women have affairs the majority of the time they are indeed doing it because they have given up on the marriage and are thus not very likely to ask for any forgiveness from their husbands? Afterall it is much easier to forgive someone who shows remorse than someone who doesn't, isn't it?

Thoughts anyone?

I don't find it hard to believe that men are less forgiving than women of affairs. I think it is harder for a man to recover from such a blow because of the male ego factor. We have many more BS women on this site than men so that makes me think women are more forgiving.

This is also something I have noticed in AA over the years. It is pretty rare to see a woman come into AA who still has her H. Most of the H's leave them. The same can't be said for the male AA's; most of them still have their wives. So, who knows?

I wonder what the top reasons are for all these women seeking divorces?

I agree that the major reason is probably that male ego, although women are not immune to the same kind of pride.

I wonder if it could also be that men tend to feel less dependent on their wives? Men have more confidence that they will be ok if the marriage ends.

Another possibility is that men are less skilled at working through emotional crises. To some men, it may seem easier to end the relationship than to do the hard work needed to recover from it.

Men also tend to view their wives as a kind of "possession". Once that possession has been used by another man, it becomes "damaged goods"

All of these are just theories.

Low

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LowOrbit:
<strong> I agree that the major reason is probably that male ego, although women are not immune to the same kind of pride.


Low </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's a wicked lie! I can't believe he said that! MEN harumpf! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I wonder if it could also be that men tend to feel less dependent on their wives? Men have more confidence that they will be ok if the marriage ends."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think so because if that were the case then it would be us men that would be the main filers of divorce.

I too have read more than once (don't ask me to recall where) that men are less forgiving than women when it comes to their spouse having an affair.

As for why more women file for divorce, even though women are supposedly more forgiving, I have a personal theory on that one.

I think more men than women would rather avoid having to take action, leave their head in the sand, or up some other dark area down below, and not face the reality of the failure of their relationship. Sure, they have the nerve to walk away from their wife, or kick their wife out, but they'd be content to not have to make things more painfully real by filing for divorce. My own brother, who at first was none too happy with my H's indecision in my situation, even said to me that he sort of understood my H's refusal to make a decision. One day shortly after a disagreement with his own wife in the past year, my brother and I were talking and he said that he suddenly realized that his initial instinct is to avoid dealing with things, that he'd prefer not to think about things.

Of course, my theory is based on a survey sample of only 2 men. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I think women have less patience and want to move on with their life, either with or without the H, and so they file for Dv. Wait, I just described myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

BUT now this brings to mind all those TV sitcoms where the man is sitting on the couch, staring blankly at the TV while the wife is trying to make the H discuss something that she thinks is important (aka she is nagging him) while he does his darndest to ignore her, b/c he either doesn't really care as much about analysing things as she does, or he would prefer not to (or the tv show is more interesting or important than what his wife has to say).

Maybe men tend to be conflict avoiders more than women do and that's the reason that more women file for divorce. That's just my guess though. I'm curious to hear others'. Thanks for starting this thread TMCM, 'tis interesting!

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I wonder if it could also be that men tend to feel less dependent on their wives? Men have more confidence that they will be ok if the marriage ends."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think so because if that were the case then it would be us men that would be the main filers of divorce.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not necessarily. The divorce process affords a woman protection and assurance of security for herself and her family. She initiates precisely because she lacks the ability to be financially independent the way her husband might.

If the roles were reversed, i.e. a stay at home dad faced with the same situation, I'd bet that he would file divorce much more quickly as well.

I see so many women on this board that really don't want their marriage to end, but find themselves having to file to ensure the WH continues to support his kids. While married, he could drain their bank accounts, sell their assets, etc, etc. She can't allow that because she doesn't have the personal independence to recover from it.

Low

Coffee it is true that men are less forgiving.

It is also true that women tend to affairs that are more likely to turn into exit affairs or are more likely to involve actually loving the OP.

Its harder to accept your spouse loving someone else than simply being physically involved. Neither is a piece of cake but you know what I mean.

As to why women file divorce at a higher rate I can only guess.

May I suggest the following:

1) Men are much more likely to be serial cheaters.
2) Women in general are more dependent on their spouses. So a spouse not measuring up more likely to be dumped.
3) Current laws regarding custody and property division are a greater barrier to divorcing for men than women.
4) Men actually have lower expectations than women when it comes to what they want from their spouses. We don't want them to meet all our needs just a limited of important ones. As one poster put it we only want the 3 F's.... Flattery, food and you get the other on. While women have a wider list of needs they want their husbands to meet, conversation, good parent, domestic help, affection, financial, intimacy and so on. Hence women are more likely to be disallusioned with a spouse than vice versa.

Apart from the wounded male ego factor, there also seems to be still a wide held misconception in the general male population that the percentage of women having affairs is very low and that these women are of very dubious morals easy to spot. So it's a real shock to the male beleif system when he find out firsthand that this is simply not the case.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"It is also true that women tend to affairs that are more likely to turn into exit affairs or are more likely to involve actually loving the OP."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In these cases of deep emotional committment where there is no more interest in salvaging the marriage, there is less of a chance to find a woman who is remorseful for having betrayed her husband. Indeed the behavior of such women is far from kind towards their BH's. Under those circumstances, it is very difficult for a BH to be forgiving of his WW.

Another thing to ponder is that Dr Harley recommends a timeframe for Plan A of 3 months for women and 6 months for men. It's been stated, even by Cerri, that women have a harder time with Plan A than men, isn't it kind of strange that this should be the case considering that women are the more forgiving gender?

The reason is intinctual self-interest. Males are far better off (psychologically and healthwise) in unhappy marriages than women are. Women are better off single than in an unhappy marriage. Several different epidemiological studies have substantiated this.

Our circumstances break down like this.

1. A psychologically healthy marriage is the healthiest place for males and females.

(healthiest means longest lifespans and manifestation of lowest number of debilitateing health issues, including such things as alzheimers)

2. A psychologically unhealthy marriage (unless really really bad) is best for a male...but NOT the female...

3. The female is best served by leaveing an unhappy marriage and remaining single....BUT

4. If she can remarry successfully, then she is better off.

That means a male will generally quickly remarry any available female, and in fact, that is exactly what happens. While females will take much longer to remarry, if at all.

<small>[ November 09, 2003, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

I guess I'm thinking that there's a "canary in the coal mine" factor here somewhere. I'm not exactly sure where it is, but I have a vague sense that maybe there are two things coming together here.

There was a period of several years at my work when we were growing and hiring quite a few people who were right out of college. We hired (very roughly) equal numbers of men and women in the process.

What we found was that the women were much more likely to stick to the job for longer periods of time. Over and over again, men became disillusioned and left after only a short period of time -- less than 18 months, say. The women, on the other hand, have been willing to put up with a great deal of stress and hardship and have been more willing to stick to it. Many of those women are still with us four or five years later.

Now, how does this apply to a relationship between men and women? Well, my sense is that men may be willing to jump quickly early on. So I wonder who breaks up more often while dating, men or women? I have this sneaking suspicion that it's the men.

Going back to the work environment, I've repeatedly seen these young women take more abuse from our clients than they should. Their boundaries seem to err on the side of being too forgiving rather than knowing when someone has crossed a line of appropriate behavior.

Sooooo... if they keep it up, they're going to hit a point where it's just TOO MUCH. And then, after the problems have become unbearable, they're past the point of working it out and instead just walk away and don't look back.

I suspect the same is true in marriages. There's no canary in the coal mine on the woman's side of the equation. It's workworkworkworkworkworkDONE.

Back to the men again -- they are more likely to have jumped around before marriage, understood that they could leave if they didn't like what was going on, and thus are more able to take the ebb and flow of a relationship's ups and downs. They also, based on what I've read, are a little more likely to be focused on SF as their one REALLY BIG emotional need, and when that stops, they tend not to realize that that IS the canary in the coal mine, and it's time to figure out what's poisoning the atmosphere. So they go along frustrated and confused for a few years until BANG. The woman has had enough and the man is left scratching his head saying, "Uh, but I always mowed the lawn and played with the kids every Thursday night..."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> Another thing to ponder is that Dr Harley recommends a timeframe for Plan A of 3 months for women and 6 months for men. It's been stated, even by Cerri, that women have a harder time with Plan A than men, isn't it kind of strange that this should be the case considering that women are the more forgiving gender? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM,
I think Harley's advice is more a reflection of the types of affairs men and women have. A man is likely to be in the A for SF more than EN's, while a woman is just the opposite. Therefore, a woman is more likely to have a deeper emotional attachment to OP, and thus need a longer period of Plan A to respond.

Just my opinion though,
Michael

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MichaelinDallas:
TMCM

I think Harley's advice is more a reflection of the types of affairs men and women have. A man is likely to be in the A for SF more than EN's, while a woman is just the opposite. Therefore, a woman is more likely to have a deeper emotional attachment to OP, and thus need a longer period of Plan A to respond.

Just my opinion though,
Michael</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Michael, Cerri(who is a woman) stated that in her experience, women have a harder time dealing with their WH's affair because they would be 'taking the emotional temperature of the marriage every 5 minutes' while men could compartamentalize their WW's affair and deal with it every couple of hours. Cerri has even commented that she has far more trouble with her BW's clients sticking to Plan A/Plan B, than with her BH's clients. Now if women are indeed the more forgiving gender, then why do they have more trouble following Plan A/ Plan B?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
Now if women are indeed the more forgiving gender, then why do they have more trouble following Plan A/ Plan B? [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM,
I don't know. I wasn't trying to comment at all on who is more forgiving, just trying to address why I thought there were time differences in plan A for men and women.

In terms of forgiveness, I think it a woman is more forgiving of a PA, while a man is more forgiving of an EA. Assumming it was both, I really don't know who would be more forgiving, but I still think women would be. I tend to agree with LowOrbit who said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Men also tend to view their wives as a kind of "possession". Once that possession has been used by another man, it becomes "damaged goods"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Michael

I'm not sure on the intellectual part of this conversasion- I know my head hurts right at this moment.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I do know that my wife has stated that if the shoes had been reversed she would have just walked away. She said that she would never let someone put her through what I have gone thru in the past two months.. ( I think the fog had lifted for a min ) anyway just my 2 cents worth..

<small>[ November 09, 2003, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Lost&Confussed ]</small>

I think stunned dad touched on the biggest reason men don't quickly file for divorce if they have children. The idea of having something you love(your children) used as a club really sucks. I have 4 more years of it. And as my son has gotten older, it has become more difficult for her to use him as a club to beat me over the head with. When we were still together, I weighed my options. This woman had no intention of ever giving me anything I needed. So I figured I would fake it, and find other ways to get by. When she left, the initial shock was hard, but after a few months, I realized that the child support wasn't costing as much as I had been spending to keep both of them. I had lots of free time, and plenty of money. Life got real good real fast. So when she wouldn't come back after a few months, but still hadn't filed for divorce, I filed. By that time, I didn't want her to come back and make my life miserable.

1) Men are much more likely to be serial cheaters.

Actually stunned-dad, it's just the opposite. Women are several times more likely to be seriel cheaters.

I think the answer lies in difference in the thought process between men and women. Men tend to take a more practical, annalytical approach to everything (yes that includes marriage) while women usually take a more emotionall approach. While the man is thinking "which direction makes the most sense for me" the woman is thinking "OMG I can't believe he hurt me like this". Now this is a basic generalization, and it's not exactly how the thoughts run out I'm sure. Nor is it how EVERY man and woman thinks. But I do think it is how the majority of the sexes work respectively. After d-day, as hurt as I was and as much as I felt betrayed, I frequently found myself thinking about how this was going to change my life. Would it be better, worse, what will it be like if we reconcile, if we D? I was still crushed beyond belief, and wanted to save the M, but there was still that part of me that weighed out the pros and cons of either scenario. Women tend to take things as they come and let their emotions govern their actions. Niether approach is any better than the other, in fact they compliment each other quite well. Probably by design <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

MTD

Has anyone read over on the divorcebusting site? Michelle-Weiner Davis has an article on the Walk Away Wife. It talks about the high percentage of divorces file for by women. Her argument is that women need/want more emotional connectivity in a marriage and when she doesn't get it, she decides that change is not possible in her mate. She goes dark and bides her time prepping herself for the eventual and unavoidable divorce. Meanwhile the H, thinks things are OK, because she isn't nagging. What she is, is in withdrawal.

I also think that women might be more forgiving of an affair, but then expect great changes in the marriage. I think a woman might be more likely to request divorce a couple of years after her H's affair when it becomes clear that the better marriage she hoped for is not going to come about on its own without a marriage recovery plan like the Harleys offer.

Just my thoughts,
MJ