For any of you who don't know my story, my FWW and I are early into recovery. My W frequented a nightclub in town most weekends for the last several years of our M. She spent time there with her OMen and generally acted like a single person while there.

She just called me and told me that her girlfriend wants to go have a couple of drinks with her and that they would like to, of course go to that bar. In accordance with Steve H. advice she wanted to know how that would make me feel. She said that if I didn't like the idea she wouldn't go.

Well I have made it very clear already how I feel about her going there again. Besides it being a huge trigger for me, it's the local meat market and not a good place for married people to hang out at IMO. It made me very angry that she would even ask the question. I told her I would think about it and talk to her when I brought the kids over later. Steve told me to try and not talk much with her about things she does that I have a problem with right now. That I should tell him about these things and let him help me with her. I figured I would try to be calm about it and tell her again that I don't like her going there but that I'm not going to tell her what to do one way or the other. I could really get into a lengthy discussion with her about all the reasons WHY I don't like it, and could do so without any LB, but don't really know how far I should go. Any suggestions?

<small>[ November 26, 2003, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: starman ]</small>

Thats a tough spot. But you have to be honest and tell her you not comfortable with her going there without you. Could you go with her?

Starman, this doesn't have to be a big deal. She asked you a question, and you CAN give a calm answer.

"It makes me angry to think of you going to that club. I'm frightened that you will meet another man while you're there, and I'm worried that it will hurt our recovery."

You can say this in a calm voice! You really can!

And then you can say, "How would you feel about going somewhere else you might enjoy that might not be so hard for me?"

Or something like that. You can, you can, you can!

I never liked my wife going out to bars without me even before the A. I just think it's asking for touble. Am I just too controling?

I definitely don't think that it's too controlling anymore hurting12! I know a woman can go to any bar and get hit on, but this one EXISTS for it. I don't think she's going there to do anything but hang with her GF and she wouldn't even be there very long. Steve told me not to expect her to change overnight, but this seems like such a no-brainer to me. I think it shows a serious lack of respect for my feelings for her to even ask the question, like I said. I know that I am emotional when it comes to this, but I also know that there are positions a married person should not put themselves in and this is definitely one of them. I don't have a problem with her spending time with her friends once in a while, but with all the bad history at this place she is going to have to find somewhere else to go sooner or later.

I would try not to get too upset about her asking. Heck at least she asked. Tell her how you feel about her going and see how she reacts. Then you two can talk with Steve about it if her reaction is a problem.

Sounds like Steve needs to bring up this bar soon to give you justification(sp) in her mind that you feeling this way is natural.

starman:

Wow! I agree with others that you should be grateful that she did ask you. It's very hard 2 hear things like that, knowing that being supportive and making a safe place for her 2 confide in you about what she's thinking is KEY 2 recovering.

Still, I have 2 wonder what she's thinking. This isn't just a no-brainer, it's the PLACE she got picked up by her OMs. And her friend? Does she know what's happened? Hard 2 imagine she doesn't. She sounds like the kind of "friend" that would poor a recovering alchoholic a stiff belt 2 help them get over withdrawal.

I'm sorry. I don't think she should go. I think you need 2 be careful how you tell her that it hurts you that she might go, but you definitely need 2 do so. What if they stay longer than they planned? What about one more drink? What about one more convo with the guy down the bar? It's all so s2pid.

-2long

If both of you are following MB principles, then the POJA answer would be NO for even if you agreed to her request, YOU would not be in enthusiastic agreement. The POJA is tough because when there is no enthusiastic agreement, then NOTHING should be done, which means that she should not go to the bar. But IF you were very agreeable in asking her if she was willing to stay at the bar with her GF for no more than one hour and then coming/going straight home to be with the kids, and she agrees then you will have succeeded in applying the POJA. Has your W read any of Dr Harley's books like 'Surviving An Affair', 'Love Busters' and 'His Needs Her Needs'? If she hasn't then you may want to convey to her that it would helpful to her for it would clarify a lot of things that Steve Harley has and will cover with her. I hope this helps.

<small>[ November 21, 2003, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

I told my W that my feelings about that place haven't changed, but also that I know I get very emotional about it and don't have all the answers yet either. I went over to her place for a little while this evening and she was in her pajamas when I got there. I asked her what was up and she said that her GF hadn't called and she wasn't going to call her. She was not talkative at all and it was obvious that something was bothering her. I didn't press her to talk with me and just as I was getting ready to leave her phone rang. She looked to see who it was and didn't answer. I figured it was her GF and left shortly afterwards.

I was home for about ten minutes and she called me. She said that she was sorry that she was in a bad mood and that it didn't have anything to do with me. She said that she feels bad sometimes that she doesn't spend any time with her friend anymore. She said that she has no desire to go to the bar, its just the place that her friends always want to go to. She wishes that they could find a different place. I told her that I very much appreciated her calling and telling me these things. I said that maybe they could find a different place to go to, at least for now and that we would work through this and find an answer together. She said that she knew we could and let me know again that it wasn't anything personal.

I then asked her if that was her GF that called and she said no it was the OM! According to her (and I don't have any reason to believe otherwise) that was the first time he had tried to contact her in a couple of months. I asked if he left her a message and she said yes. She said that he just wanted to see what was up and say hi. She told me that she has no desire to talk with him and can see now what a loser he really is. She also told me that it wasn't so much him that she had such a hard time getting over, it was the idea that she thought she had found something that she had been missing and it was the realization that she hadn't that messed with her so bad. Maybe she is starting to get it.

I forgot to answer TMCM question. No my W hasn't read any of the books as of yet. She has only counseled with SH twice and filled out the EN and LB worksheets. All of this is very new to her, but so far she seems very open to it.

Great update Starman. Your W seems to be practicing radical honesty while you are avoiding love busters and thus creating an emotionally safe environment in which she can share her most deepest thoughts and feelings (true intimacy).

As far as the books are concerned, have you considered the idea of giving her at least one of them as a Christmas gift?

My husband hated it when I would go to the bar with my girlfriends. Honestly, I never wanted to go to the bar, but that was the only place in town we could hang out at night! Or so I pleaded. I came to realize that we could go out to eat and sit around and talk there, or take a day and go shopping or something. But the 'girls' wanted to get drunk...so we usually did. Well, during one of our failed recoveries he asked me to stop going out with the girls to the bar and I exploded. He was trying to control me and no one was going to keep me from hanging out with my friends! Blah blah blah blah...

When I came back with my head out of my butt...I never even asked...I immediatly told my friends no thanks, and made up every excuse in the book not to go. I've tried inviting them shopping or out to eat or to a movie...but it's been a rarity. They continue to invite me out to drink, and I honestly don't feel like I'm missing a thing anymore. My husband always expressed discomfort at the trouble we could get in to and the appearances it gave to have married women in a bar. I never gave a thought to it...but now, from where I sit today...I get it. A couple of my friends have admitted to being hit on by guys, and almost bragged that they could have gotten something if they'd wanted it. And their newest groupie openly flirts with whomever...even though she's married.

Whatever...I'm glad to be home cuddling with my honey. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Good for your wife to open up and tell the truth!!! That DOES show progress!

starman:

I'm relieved. This won't be easy, but she did make a positive step for you as a couple.

I think we all find that, as we grow older and our interests change and we get in2 committed relationships, our herd of friends changes over time. Once "best friends" become fond acquaintences, then fade away, while new friends, perhaps friends with families of their own and foci on them come along.

That's life.

The bar-hopping croud reminds me of a song:

"Roll Call", -Peter Murphy

On a long and winding grey paved street
Your breath the only friend
Chattering others surrounding you
You're going out again
It's a laugh and a gas new crowd
You tell yourself
While buttoning up a new red shirt
It's been a twenty years of doing this
Just the same night into night
Day into day
with your preset mind

Wake up with a preset mind
With no self control
And you decide to call the Roll Call
Of the socialites who mortified
Can't see as far as their next surprise
Yeah, happy with nothing but the sweet F.A. of the night
Believing that they're alive and well
But if asked
They have nothing to tell
Except the words of a clashing rhyme
All calmed and out of sync
Even real sounds like a zero
To a brain in lip sync
Roll!"

♠2long

<small>[ November 22, 2003, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Well I have made it very clear already how I feel about her going there again.

Then I wonder why she even considered going, if she already knows how you feel.... ?


It made me very angry that she would even ask the question.

Well ..... sure! She already knew the answer!

Steve told me to try and not talk much with her about things she does that I have a problem with right now.

I'll bet Steven did NOT mean that you cannot answer a direct question she may ask you.

"Does this bother you?" .... "Yes, it bothers me."

Simple.


That I should tell him about these things and let him help me with her.

I think he means you don't try to educate her. I am sure you can answer a simple "yes or no" question.


I could really get into a lengthy discussion with her about all the reasons WHY I don't like it, and could do so without any LB, but don't really know how far I should go.

I think you should be short and sweet, and very honest. "No, I don't think I'd like that at all."..... then shuddup. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep

Shouldn't she change her number so that OM can't reach her? That is contact even for her to hear his voice. It keeps the addiction going. The Ow in my situation got to my FWH that way. He used to love her messages even when they were in the A.

Take Care!!

Well my FWW got a call today from her GF about going out to the bar tonight. My W wanted to make a deal with me that she would go out and have a couple of drinks, then come over and stay at my place tonight. I told her that she was of course always welcome here but that she already knew how I felt about going to the bar. She was quiet and it was bothering her that I had a problem with it but she was going anyway. She then said that maybe she wouldn't stay over here because it would be uncomfortable since she was going to go to the bar. I told her that she could do whatever she wanted and to just let me know.

I was rather cold towards her and not very talkative about the whole subject (trying to follow SH advice) but I don't think I LB in a big way. After she got home she called me and said that she wasn't going to go out but that she was going to stay at her house and just come over in the morning. I told her that I didn't have much to say because I was following our counselors advice and she said that he told her the same thing. If she has a problem with something that I do to wait and tell him about it. He told her that it would be easier for both of us to deal with these things if he was the go-between right now. So we said good night and that was that.

I find it hard to think that I am making too big of a deal out of this, but maybe I am. Again I know that she would be going to hang out with her girlfriend and that is all but why there? To me it is mostly a matter of respect for my feelings, but also if she was going to run into any of her OM the best chance for that would be there. I was already having a bad day (lots of nasty memories for some reason)so the timing wasn't so good either. I'll bet that if I told her it would be okay for her to go there once a month for a couple of hours that she would be fine with that, but right now even that's too much for me. Am I being too hard headed?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Starman:

"Am I being too hard headed?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. You are being honest without love busting her and that is what makes true intimacy possible.

Perhaps she wanted to go to that bar because it was also the place where she and her GF spent many good times talking with each other and she wanted to relive some of those old times with her. She may no longer associate the bar with all the OM's she was involved with but she forgets that you do and only remembers it when you point it out to her. She knows that you will not control her actions and that she is free to go to the bar but since you let her know your feelings with respect to the bar, her desire to go there with her GF, went away fast. That's probably why she called you that she was not going to go to the bar.

Remember that old habits are hard to break but you and even her seem to be doing a good job in caring for each others feelings.