</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You say I am self-centered and selfish.

Aren't all of us that way to a certain extent?
Everyone that is the mate of a WS, feels their own pain and hurt and do not take much into consideration their WS's pain of withdrawing from the other person that they care very deeply about.

That is just the way it is, we can only truly FEEL our own feelings; we can try to 'walk in their shoes' but in reality we can't. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OMG!

No! We are not all that way! That's the line of thinking that led you to the A in the first place.
I feel so sorry for your H. He has no choice in this other than to live a lie that he knows nothing about. You are his Enron. He has invested in something he thinks is worthwile, but it's all based on lies and deceit. The worst betrayal is one you don't know about. The market will turn and he will find out one way or another that his investment is worthless.

You want understanding for your pain? You want comfort for your loss of OM? Fine, but first cowboy up and do the right thing. If you don't try and resolve this COMPLETELY it will only repeat until it is resolved.

That is an EXCELLENT analogy Harry.

Originally posted by hope4future:

Her encouragement and faith in me actually helped me out of my mire.

But YOU did all the heavy lifting! I just offered you some perspective that there was a life outside the mire.

I love you!

Pep

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I love you too!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sarie

Its time for you to face some facts. Your OM said he was going to be faithful to his new W. I doubt that will happen, because he doesn't know what the word really means. He doesn't respect the marriage vows at all. He never respected yours. Why should he respect his. You say he is a divorced man. Did he respect his past vows? If your really take a hard look, he didn't respect your M, nither did you, he didn't respect you, he doesn't respect anything. Can you say he really respects his current gf/w? He was still seeing you wasn't he.

He will contact you again, and you will go running to him. Thats a fact, you have no reason not to. I really doubt you have the will power to stop yourself. You are continuing to live a lie. Your fond memories to dwell on. Think of those memories for what they are. Each contact, each touch, as a knife in your H's back.

If you really believe that your a caring and loving person then why not tell your H. He should have the option of weither to remain in the M or not. After all you did nothing wrong, no remorse, no guilt, what could be the problem with telling him.

Its time to wake up and see exaxtly the A for what it is. You M is truly dead, and only you can bring it back to life with being honest and truthful.

Sarie -
I've only glanced through some of the replies to your post.

If you are seeking justification for your affair - well, you won't find that here. What you will find is support should you decide to be completely honest with your Husband and tell him about your betrayal. It is clear your A began in an effort to fill the needs of someone in great need and in turn he filled your needs, however this was at the expense of your Husband, your marriage, your promise to him. It was a completely selfish act.
I don't buy the "I was driven" stuff.. load o' crap I'm afraid. You made a clear choice to continue in an illicit relationship. You made a clear choice to betray your loving husband. You made a clear choice to cloak this betrayal in the guise of being a loving and caring person.

Now you have another clear choice...

God Bless.

Sarah,

You are still in the fog, we all know that. That is why we are being so strong with you. When you come out/if you come out, then what people are telling you will make much more sense.

I have told you for the last time to tell your H, but that won't stop me from illustrating with your own words how you have hurt him. How you have slighted your H. How you have robbed him of 10 years.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was like I became the girl I was before I was married. (I was married at 18, didn't have sex until AFTER we were married.)..The OM listened to me and absorbed my every word whereas my husband doesn't much care about conversations about feelings, he likes to talk about his work or sports!..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, let's see. If you H came to you tomorrow and said let's talk about feelings, would you? Would you tell him how you really feel? Nah! He at least talks about the important things in his life, you don't. He probably even mentions when the sex life starts to twindle, but you didn't talk about YOUR needs. Nope, waited for a sick and dying man to unload on. Made you feel good didn't it? Justified your actions did it not?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, my marriage vows were not outstanding as they had been for 25 years, all that seemed to matter was being with and talking with him...My only hope was that no one ever found out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I would bet that if you asked your H he hasn't felt the marriage was much more than one of convenience. If you told him, a lot of pieces of puzzles would fall into place. BUT the major message I want you to get from this post is that YOU had a major role in making your marriage unexciting enough to justify your affair. YOU failed to give your H the time, attention, INSIGHT into you, that you gave OM. In short, you gave your OM the keys to the castle, while telling your H to swim the mote (sp).

Whatever state your marriage is now in, you contributed mightly.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have grieved and cried every day since August 4th...So when I say no one was hurt because of us, I am not including myself and yeah I deserve to sorrow and ache and miss him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then you tell me no one knows. You are a complete fool if you don't think your H and your friends don't know something is wrong. Maybe they haven't caught you crying but you are not that good of a liar. THEY KNOW MORE THAN YOU THINK. You live in a small town Sarah. In small towns people know a lot, suspect more, and tell even more than that. THEY KNOW. Your H may know, but may have decided to let you continue the charade. But your marriage isn't much is it? No passion, no depth, just chores and patterns done repetitiously.

THAT IS YOUR FAULT.

I asked you on another thread, and I will ask you here. IF you plan on continuing the lie, how do you plan on protecting what is left of your marriage from the OM when he calls again? How do you plan on making up to your H that which you have stolen from him? How do you plan on showing your children that you really are a woman of substance? How are you going to show yourself, that you have turned a new leave and have recommited to your H?

Your words mean nothing, they have no value. Even as you utter them to your H, you know they are a lie. So what ACTIONS are you going to take to make it up to him. What ACTIONS are you going to do to make it OK in your mind? What ACTIONS are you going to take so that when you go to church, the words won't sear your heart?

You have NOT been forgiven by your God, because you have no remorse for what you did, no guilt, no compassion for those you have lied to. You will be forgiven as the scripture says when you ask in honesty and humility and remorse for His forgiveness. You have not demonstrated any of those traits yet, have you?

So Sarah (I keep wanting to add "Plain and Tall"; my W loved those books) what is YOUR PLAN?

If you need help with your plan let us know. We know many things here and can help. But YOU have to develop a plan to make something of your marriage so that it is NOT a shell or YOU will pay consequences you cannot foresee.

God Bless You Sarah,

JL

Sarie --

There are so many things I want to say to you. I just don't have a lot of time, day before Thanksgiving is hectic ... Let me start by saying or introducing myself -- I was a FWW (former wayward wife) 13 years ago.

MY OP was single and went on to marry another person. I even helped pick out the clothes for the first date, etc. Also I did posted in Recovery in May how a WS can love both the BS and OP at the same time. so I do understand.

BUT that doesn't excuse you from your transgression and from your responsibility to be honest and faithful . . .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This went on (not much in the winter) for 5 years and then after hearing my pastor say over and over if we are living in sin and don't repent, we should question our salvation.
. . . As an unfaithful wife, the only way I can explain it to you of why I didn't feel guilty, is because I loved and cared SOOOO much for this other guy </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can you truly repent if you don't feel guilt over the vows, the promise, etc. that you've broken? How can you live an honest, the best you can be, life if you don't face up and own what you did? And part of that owning and honesty is to tell your husband.

YOu seek to justify your affair by what he didn't give you, what you were missing in your life. That's not unique, most FWS here will tell you they did the samething. But there are generally two things missing from that equation and quasi justification:

1. What was your spouse missing from you prior to your affair ... generally both sides have needs that aren't met.

2. Did you try everything to fix your marriage before you chose to break your vows? Did you read books about marriage and relationships? If so did you discuss them with your H? Did you go to IC and work on yoursellf? Did you talk to spouse about MC -- did you do everything to "fix" the problems, to get your husband to see that your needs weren't being met?

One of the things that happens when a WS cops to an affair is that there is a real chance for change to happen inside the relationship -- for real work to be done, a BS who didn't listen before sometimes starts listening now.

You ask what good will it do for you to tell him ... well how about a chance at a better marriage. Yes it does hurt the BS ... I've been through this twice, and hopefully this time my FWS has done the work on himself to keep this from happening again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At the time, as I mentioned earlier, it was like I was driven emotionally and physically to be with him. You think where is my control and my self-respect and my conscience and honesty; all I can say is "I don't know" because when it came to HIM, all my morals of a lifetime seemed to vanish.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And that's why you need to own up to this and tell your spouse and go to IC and MC -- so that you can work on yourself and mend the defects in your character, and be a better, happier, healthier person.

Yes, your husband may decide that it's not worth it to go through all of this -- but by telling him you are showing him the respect he deserves in making decision of whether he wants to continue with the person you are now.

That was chance you took when you decided to have an affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> God, I don't want to tell him!
Would I also have to tell my 3 daughters, their husbands, my mom, my mother-in-law, my 7 grandchildren.. My 11 year old granddaughter and I are SO CLOSE, she ADORES her Gramma Sarah, I don't want her to ever know.

Remorse would be big time if anyone knew!
I don't think I could stand to have them look at me differently.

I DON'T WANT THEM TO KNOW
Surly you understand that.
And yes I am weeping all over my keyboard! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I understand ... I understand how you don't want others who look up at you to know that you've fallen .. that's why as BS I only told 3 people about my husband's last A ... my sister, and 2 friends.

Why don't you just start with your husband ... IF you begin to show remorse and real repetence (and direct him here) very few people may ever know. YOu may want to tell him with your pastor or MC present.

Until you are remorseful though IMHO you are not repentant.

But again loosing the respect of all those people is the exchange YOU chose. It sucks, but that's realty.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will never cheat again, the affair is over </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not unless you own what you did, deal with the consequences and work on yourself.

way2

You say you don't want to hurt your H by telling him of your affair. No, you don't want to hurt YOURSELF. Your selfishness continues. We know no one is perfect, but most don't say "I LIED, DECEIVED, RISKED PASSING DISEASE ONTO MY HUSBAND FOR 5 YEARS, but I really am an honest, nice person". Well most WS and OW/OM say that foolisness and hope that others buy it. You wanted the fun, exciting OTHER LIFE, but you don't want the responsibility of owning up to it and cleaning up the mess you have made. Karma has a way of coming back to bite people in the >>> GOOD LUCK you will need it.

Hi Sarie,

I am a WS as well. Like you, I don't think I would have ever told if I hadn't been caught. I don't think I would've ever stopped the affair either.

Whether or not you tell your H seems to have been the center of this discussion. I'd like to move in a different direction :

Assume you never tell and your husband never find out, what have you learned from this that makes you sure that you'll never cheat again? Are you going to take steps to help your marriage be the kind of marriage it should be? As JL said, What is your plan?

I can promise you that your attempts to rebuild your relationship with your H will stumble time and time again on this stone of deceit. I encourage you to try...perhaps you will succeed where everyone else has failed.

Somewhere along the line, your husband wasn't meeting your needs. If you keep this from him, he may never know that's happening. My W has admitted that the one thing my affair did was "wake her up" to what was going on. Are you going to deny your husband the information he needs to make critical life decisions? This does not show him love.

Love is both feeling and ACTION. I think one without the other is not love.

Felt much like you about my affair and the OW. You get your hackles up when others call you 'deluded.' Having been there, I can in fact second that you are deluded. The affair ahs this effect on you...it did on all of us WS. It will take some time and soul searching to realize what you have truly done.

This ain't the "Bridges of Madison County"...this is real life. Are you strong enough to live it?

Low

Dear Low Orbit.
My answer to your question is I honestly don't know, but I sure hope and pray so.

If you get a chance read what I wrote to "Too much coffee man".

And to all of you that have taken the time to reply and steer me in the right direction, thank you; I do appreciate it.
Love, Sarah

<small>[ November 26, 2003, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

Sorry folks, but I am a bit confused.

Are Sarie, Sara and Sally all the same person?
Sometimes I get the feeling I am watching multiple afternoon soap operas at the same time.

I had to use the ID name Sarie because the name Sarah was already taken.

My real name is Sarah.

Sally and me met on the 'breakups suck message board' and both felt we didn't belong there as it was for young unmarried people that had broken up with their sweeties.

Sally and I are both WS though, so no wonder you get us confused.
Hers was an e-mail affair mostly, mine was mostly a daily many hours telephone affair.
(With occassional rendevous.)
Love, SARAH

My God, some of the people here are so mean. Like characters out of The Crucible or The Scarlet Letter. Blemishes and all, Sarie is probably the most compassionate person I've read in here.

I think Marriage Builders is wonderful. The pro-active marriage-saving philosophy makes other marriage-counseling approaches seem wimpy in comparison. I admire Dr. Harley and feel that phone counseling with him would be extremely helpful. But if I have to agree, lock-step, with everything he says, well, I guess you can kick me out now. But Sarie: you're making a sincere effort to put 100% effort into your marriage. In my humble opinion, telling him would be a very bad idea.

Hello:

I am Beall's wife. I got help on this chat room a year ago. My opinion is that spouses have to be always honest with each other. This is one of the things which marriage stands on. Everything hidden will sometime become discovered. (IT IS ALWAYS SO)
Your husband will find out sometime and become disappointed in you.
I am feeling not very good in our marriage now because I know my husband can be not honest to me and I can't trust him anymore. Even now I see his opinion about telling truth and this attitude hirts my feelings. I feel total disrespect when person whom you sharing your life with wants to hide something from you especially an affair.
I agree that you don't need to tell anything to your relatives, but your husband is worthy to be told truth.

Hi

This is Sally

I met a man (OM) 10 months ago on a girls night out....had one sexual encounter (of whcih he drove 5 hours to canada to meet me) and daily email convo's and chats for hours.

said he needed a break 2 weeks ago to work on marriage....havent heard from him

trying to come to terms with the fact that closing my email and puttin an end to this is the BEST thing to do.

btw...i amditted the A to my H and he has been the most wondrful, supportive, yet sad guy.

im very lucky

Sally

Beall's wife: I respect your opinion, which of course is the majority point of view, but in Sarie's case, considering all that she has said, and the direction she is now headed in her marriage, I still feel it would be most unwise for her to tell all. And I don't see how my position on this matter can possibly hurt your feelings. Moreover, how about all of the nice (extremely nice) things I've said about you on this message board? Are you ignoring them, as you tend to ignore all of the positive things I have to say to you? Well, let me restate: "attractive spouse" is very high on my priority list (couldn't care less who thinks I'm shallow) and you are still the most beautiful woman I've ever met.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Remorse would be big time if anyone knew!
I don't think I could stand to have them look at me differently.

I DON'T WANT THEM TO KNOW
Surly you understand that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I do. It has nothing to do with protecting your husband. It is about protecting yourself. Just like every other WS who doesn't want to tell. It is entirely selfish. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> From: “Husbands and Wives; Exploding Marital Myths, Deepening Love and Desire” by Dr. Melvyn Kinder and Dr. Connell Cowan (UCLA Clinical Psychologist, and Univ. of Houston Clinical Psychologist.

“We have all heard of affairs going on for years. The great romance of Spencer Tracy and Katharine Hepburn comes to mind. Rather than calling such an arrangement an “affair”, it is much more accurate to characterize the participants as having a “double life.” Those involvements typically arise from a marriage that has strong ties holding it together. We’re not suggesting that the ties are necessarily positive ones, but they are binding. For some, these ties are religious. For others, there may be a seriously ill husband of wife who cannot be abandoned. And, more commonly, there are those marriages in which the family life is so rich and meaningful that neither husband nor the wife can contemplate leaving the marriage, at least until the children are grown. Even after the children leave, people often remain together “for the children’s sake” or because they are afraid of their friends’ response if they decide to dissolve the marriage.”

“In many ways, this type of affair, if unknown to the spouse, may represent the most deceptive and hypocritical relationship of all. Try to picture yourself with another wife or husband you see two or three time a week. And this goes on for years. How do you do it? How can you share your thoughts about your children, your work, and so on, when you have to do the same thing at home? Well, it’s obvious what happens: sharing of feelings and thoughts with the mate at home becomes superficial or even nonexistent, as though that person were merely a figure with whom you may, for example, share some family concerns but rarely deeper, more personal revelations. Real joy and passions are taking place elsewhere.”

“Men and women who are inclined to have this sort of dual relationship always feel resigned to not finding closeness and intensity within their marriages. Most often, they haven’t really looked all that hard at home or put out all that much effort. They assume the path toward passion and aliveness within the marriage is too overgrown. In fact, they simply choose the easier road.”

“What can we make of this type of arrangement? (between the WS and OP) Is it bad? Will it last? Does it matter? The only certainty is that the ongoing deception has a continuing impact on both marriages (or relationships). Naturally, any wish or commitment to make changes at home has long since passed. They are both satisfied, they believe they have the best of both worlds, and they insist they are not hurting their spouses. As happens in most long-term affairs, companionship rather than sexuality has become the strongest bonding element between WS and OP. In fact, many times in their liaisons, they will just talk rather than have any sexual contact.”

“…It should be noted that while they say they are happy, they both express sadness that things couldn’t have been different with their mates. Keeping such an important part of their lives hidden for so long creates a vague sense of fragmentation that becomes the source of inner doubting. Though both WS and OP seem to be juggling their double lives fairly well, one always wonders what might have been if they had had the courage to work harder on their marriages.”
“Let us state at the outset that affairs are terribly destructive not only to marriages but to the individuals involved as well.”

“The most basic effect of an affair on one’s marriage is estrangement. Some people think a lack of trust is the ultimate legacy, but that assumes that the affair becomes known. The fact is that most affairs go undetected. Most husbands and wives will never really know for sure whether their love one has been faithful or not.

“Affairs are inherently dishonest; they all involve varying degrees of subterfuge and deception. Maintaining the “secret” requires an enormous amount of energy even if the unfaithful party does not think so. We have spoken with and counseled many men and women who at first insist they are carrying it off well. The report little or no guilt and are convinced the affair does not negatively affect their relationship at home. This is absolute nonsense!”

In order to keep an affair hidden you are forever walking around with a secret that burns inside. Imagine having a liaison, then coming home, making love with your spouse, and at the height of lovemaking saying “I love you.” Pretty hard to do, isn’t it? Yet millions of men and women have experienced that very moment. What must that do to a person’s sense of honor, integrity, character?”

“As for those who insist they feel little or no guilt, they are deceiving themselves. Guilt is not always conscious. Husbands or wives who play around may feel hidden guilt, which manifests itself in irritability, argumentativeness, with one’s spouse, or vague and ill-defined feeling of depression and self-loathing.” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Note that these psychologists have nothing to do with MB. They study marriages and affairs.

"The fact is that most affairs go undetected. Most husbands and wives will never really know for sure whether their loved one has been faithful or not."


Thanks John for that good article, it made a LOT of sense...
And yes, I seem to be one of the people described in the above paragraph from your message.

I was going to quit posting but then I feel I should respond when someone takes the time to write a note to me.Thanks again.
Love, Sarah

“As for those who insist they feel little or no guilt, they are deceiving themselves. Guilt is not always conscious. Husbands or wives who play around may feel hidden guilt, which manifests itself in irritability, argumentativeness, with one’s spouse, or vague and ill-defined feeling of depression and self-loathing.”

sufdb...That only applies to people with empathic capacity. Many people are married to naricissitic type personalities, who are being completely honest when they say they feel no guilt, and have no problem with a double life.

Which kind of person are you sarie? If the former, as you claim, a good woman, then the article is further validation of the price you are inflicting on yourself and your H by your self-serving reluctance to end the secret.