question? how would you handle plan B if you have no one other then your daughters to act as middlemen? I'm just trying to get a real clear picture here.

Robbed,
I understand your anger and frustration. You may have waited too long to go into plan B. Sounds like your love bank is pretty well depleated...

Do you want your marriage to survive? Are you willing to do what it takes? If you haven't read the principles on this site, that's a good starting point. Some other very important books are Surviving an Affair, His Needs/Her Needs. I like the books by Dr Phil on self improvement and Michelle Weiner Davis' book on DivorceBusters. These books show you the root of many of the common problems that happen in a marriage and how to deal with them. The main point in these books is you cannot change your spouse, but you can change yourself.

Again, I know you are very angry and hurt, but have you tried to find the reasons your marriage was not on track? Have you filled out the emotional needs questionaires and found out where both of you need to work to meet each others needs? It sounds like your anger has also caused you to love bust. If you continue to love bust and not attempt to meet his needs emotionally, his love bank will be depleated also. I know it is very difficult to try to be nice to someone that continuously hurts you, but you have to find a way to show him that you care and that if he gets his act together he has a wonderful person to come back to. Plan A is about exposing the affair and letting spouse know how badly you are hurt from his actions. But it is also about learning and meeting the needs of your spouse without love busting so they feel they have a reason to come home. Plan B is done after plan A when the spouse is teetering between lover and spouse. Plan B is also there to save the BS from losing too much love to where there is no return. You have to save whatever love is still left in your love bank for the recovery phase. Plan B is also the time for the WS and lover to have all their needs met by each other. Most often, they can't do it and soon the affair fizzles out because they have to deal with day to day problems and there is no history and committment. And also the affair was never supposed to see the light of day. It was built on lies and deceit. You cannot build a lasting relationship on this foundation. Also plan B is a time for you to rebuild yourself. Start doing things you want to do, rediscover yourself and your kids. Its a time to do the things you've wanted to do but never did. Its the time to make improvements in your life and help yourself become stronger so you will have the strength to rebuild your marriage if your husband comes back. This is the time to figure out even if you want your husband to come back. But it is important to look at what caused the marriage to get to the point where either of you could have had an affair. What emotional needs is the affair partner meeting that you are not meeting. I know this is a long post and may not be what you want to hear. But the first step is learning as much as you can about affairs, emotional needs and finding self perspective. I wish you all the best in whatever you do. It is a long hard road we are all on...

I wouldn't give your husband the plan B letter in Jamaica. I'd go and spend as much time with your kids and really try to enjoy yourself. Show your husband the calm, wonderful wife that he can have if he would do what it takes to come back. But also, go and have a good time. Don't let him get you down. I wish I could go to Jamaica! Take care of yourself and your kids. Keep posting and let us be your support group. The people at this site have an abundance of knowledge. Use them to your advantage. I may not be the best advice giver but I know what has worked for me and what is working for me. Best wishes for the new year. Let us know when we can help. Don't feel bad about venting here also. I know I've done alot of that. Take care and keep posting...

I don't know if I can go to jamaica and just have a good time around H. I'm extremely angry right now. I would cancel the trip if I could get the money back and go streight into plan B.

Why can't you go to Jamica without your husband?

If your prepared to live your life without your husband this could be the first step. I can't think of any other place that would be better to relax, forget about all this crap, and bond with your children. When you come back it may be that you have a different perspective on things. It may even shock your husband into realizing your serious.

You'll loose some money but only the price of one fair and really that's the consequences of your husband's actions.

Hey its worth a try <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But do you really think he'll give up this vacation?

the vacaton is January 4th less then 2 weeks away. I don't think he'll give it up.

You know I really need this vacation but maybe I should be the one to stay home and send him and the girls just to show how serious I am about no contact. so far this is just a thought honestly speaking. Taking my girls on at least one vacation out of the country as a family is a dream come true for me.

Who has the tickets physically in their control?

If it's you.....oops you can tear up his ticket. You can make a choice for you, be strong and tell him he is not welcome on this trip as a consequence to his actions. That's what plan B is all about.

Your very first post was how he doesn't have to pay... He gets to live with you and have his OW on the side. He gets to visit his OW the day before Christmas and then go to Jamica with you and do the family thing.... That needs to stop immediately and the only who is going to stop it is going to be YOU. I say Jamica is the perfect place to start.

I agree with the other posters 100%. Why should he enjoy a nice trip to Jamaica with you guys when he is treating you with so little respect??? You said yourself more of the income comes from you, so don't feel so bad. It amazes me how much nice people will take sometimes before they stand their ground.

I know at first it will be hard, but your daughters need to see you stand up to your H. They are going to end up marrying men who treat them the same way. (The damage might already be done... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

e-tickets, I have paperwork and credit card to get tickets the day we leave. But here's what I think would be another problem. I think in order for one parent to take a child out of the country you have to have the other parents permission (I think) I could be wrong on this.

Your right, you probably shouldn't take the kids out of the country without your husbands permission. So you have a couple of choices:

1. You continue the status quo with both of you going and pretending to have fun. Nothing really changes.

2. You could do a sort of plan A on your vacation and then move immediately to plan B as soon as you get back. Would be hard because you would have to pretend.

3. You have a firm talk with your husband about the fact that you don't want him to go, but want him to allow you to take the children, and after all he's done this is the least he can do.

4. You and your children don't go. It sucks and will be a big disapointment for your children. But you didn't cause the problem your husband did. Your children understand whats going on and although they will be disappointed they may also be proud of you for standing up for what's right, at the very least they will respect you for it. As for the money, seperation and divorce or expensive this is just the start.

If it were me personally I wouldn't want to be in the same room as my husband let alone go away for a romantic vacation but I can understand that you feel pulled in different directions.

Robbed -- this is a summary of a book that is now out of print but I was able to get through interlibrary loan at my library. It tells you how to stop being a victim. I was a victim of severe physical abuse (my sig line mentions the broken arm but not the cracked skull, the chokings, the damaged ear drum, my being thrown down when 7 months pregnant, etc. about 50 incidents of violence in all) as well as an affair. The affair hurt worse. Please take care of yourself...

<small>[ December 27, 2003, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

Dear Robb'd,

You delimea is that your emotional stance right now vs your vacation is in conflict. Take a good look at it and decide ASAP if you can handle the trip with him and the girls or without him and the girls or just without him. Either way there is some $$ to be lost. Which is more important? U need to decide. Pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. There w/b a loss here and it needs to be the loss that ends with the most positive result. Sometimes $$ can not cover the emotional toll.

As for your 3rd party contact, some courts have mediation units or you can use your lawyer. You can also take that question to the d/d board and see what their suggestions are. Check out the option in your county and state. Sometimes even a local women's shelter organization can serve as a temporary intermediary.

Keep your communication via e-mail, letter &/or voicemail. That way voice or 1 on 1 contact can be kept to a minimum.

Realize that you both can change also. For the better or worse. Be prepared for the worst is a safer route but don't get all panicky.

Take a look at Topie25's thread and see where she was 1 year ago vs this year. Quite a marked improvement.

Hope this helps.
L.

First let me say I can't thank you all enough for being here and caring enough to help me. God bless you all. And believe me I'm reading all of your advice and it is helping me.
Brokenheart excellent material. What's the title of this book?

I Spoke to H yesterday and told him exactly how I felt, I told him that he chose his family this Christmas. He said he didn't make that choice. We went through the yes "you did", "No I didn't" thing and then I told him I rather he not go on vacation with us. I really didn't get a response to that. My husband thinks he can feed me the same old bull over and over again and I'll just keep taking him back. But I told him, "not this time". I'm removing myself from this situation. His words were "So you’re saying its over." I told him I loved him and that I did want our marriage to work out but he has issues he needs to deal with. And I told him that I’m removing myself from this situation and that I'm finished with this relationship. I Told him that I didn't want anything meaning $$$ from him that he could give it all to his new family. After telling him about how he crushed my daughters for Christmas and about his and OW's disgusting character I hung up on him.
My 15 year old wants so bad to tell her father what’s on her mind. Am I wrong to give her the go ahead? I mean he is still her father. She told me yesterday that what little respect she had for him is all gone and that there is nothing he can do to get it back.
God knows I'm hurting but I'm feeling much better then I've felt during past incidents. I managed to eat 3 small meals yesterday watched a few movies and I even managed to get a few hours sleep.

As for plan B I don't think I'll be able to put that into full swing until H gets all his clothing out of the house and this Jamaica dilemma is resolved. In the meantime I'm working on my letter.
In the State of NJ there's no such thing as a legal seperation and I can't afford a lawyer at this time. When I put plan B in full swing maybe I'll resort to the voice mail email contact only.

OMG I was just searching the history on my computer and three weeks ago someone did a search for an abortion clinic. The site was viewed 11 times. I wouldn't be surprised if this woman is pregnant again by H. This would really explain why H has completely lost his mind and abandoned his family at christmas. This would also explain why all of a sudden he started making as many repairs as possible around the houseover the past 6 weeks. God I pray my suspicions are wrong. If I'm right I don't know how I'll respond. In fact I'm afraid I'll do something real real stupid..........

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by robbed:
<strong>
As for plan B I don't think I'll be able to put that into full swing until H gets all his clothing out of the house and this Jamaica dilemma is resolved. In the meantime I'm working on my letter.
In the State of NJ there's no such thing as a legal seperation and I can't afford a lawyer at this time. When I put plan B in full swing maybe I'll resort to the voice mail email contact only. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">robbed, Plan B means you end ALL contact, even voice mail and email contact. If he needs to contact you for an emergency he can do it through a designated person.

In your Plan B letter, you can make arrangements for him to get his clothes, ie: have him come and collect them at a designated time, etc.

Didn't you tell him that you didn't want him to come on vacation with you already? Isn't that issue settled?

I think your 15 yr old should be allowed to tell him whatever she wants.

Robb'd,

Because he is their father, the children have a right to speak their mind. How they do so many matter but at this point his conduct needs to accept whatever they have to say. Have your watched the Dr Phil show about the couple named Marty and Erin?

As for the abortion cookies, make sure you talk with your children and let them know about the 'subhject' that if there were to be an issue about serious topics like abortion, depression, drugs, etc. you need them to feel comfortable enough to address those issues with you. Don't say abortion alone. You don't know who is looking at what but your hunch may be right. At this time though, you need to pray for a clear mind and a calm heart because the stuff coming your way is mind boggling and you need all the help you can get.

Pull you and your children to make one united stand as a family against this A. Do not tell your H to use his $$ for the 'new family'. He owes most of his $$ to your family and don't you let him forget it. If that other family ends up homeless, that is NOT your issue. Most OWs are know how to render a BS and family homeless before they suffer a broken nail. Trust me on this one, I know of 2 cases right here on MB where the WS threw out this wife and children (both cases were with babies 3 years and younger). They threw their families out on the street. 1 at night time and I was called to serve RO paperwork. The other one across the country was kicked out of her newly built custom home. She was a stay at home mom with a 2 year old. There are more stories.

The point is you have to look out for YOUR family's interest, not his. He is NOT looking protecting your family's interests with his actions and maybe that is the angle you need to tackle.

The H & W relatioship angle doesn't work well because of the OP. The family angle forms a stronger bond and strengthens the BS' stance. As foggy as a WS gets, they can not fight the family. They will try but not succeed. As a result you may see him doing irrational things. That is why plan B is important and living separated may be an option. Remember this is a survival technique. Check out the family court options in your area. Even if you can't affort a lawyer you can at least familarlize yourself with what is available.

Don't settle for less than what you deserve. Even in him.

I told my WS (at the time), that after dealing with the A issue for well over 2 years, that someone in this mess needed to be happy because if 'my family' (I used that term often and it did NOT include him), if my family had to suffer with this A mess SOMEONE had better be having a good time because we weren't. Then I asked him who it was. He said it wasn't him. Then I said, was it the OW? He said, maybe. I said, 'now isn't that stupid? I suffer for someone I haven't even met? How dumb is that?' With those words ringing in his ears, I let him go. This meant every time the OW tried to show her happiness, my words rang and clanged in his foggy brain..... go figure...... isn't that how they warn the ships and boats in the fog? Using a FogHorn? Yep, I had found my MB Fog Horn! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

May you find yours.

take care,
L.
ps: hug your kids every day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The title of the book is The Solo Partner by Phil deLuca. We finished with the second MC who had recommended the book to me. She told me to find out what track Tom is on, not try to get him on the right track, and then make a decision based on that assessment. I told her that I think he is on the track to do the minimum to stay married but he isn't interested in building a life with me. I switched to a new MC who thinks he can help Tom change.

Robbed, I usually post on OW/OC forum. I read your posts there and here and decided to respond.
I hope I help.
Have you talked to a lawyer? See if a lawyer will give you 30 min to an hour free to discuss your situation and decide if he can help you. Also my brothers told me to find the meanest "witch of a lawyer" I could find. They said a woman would empathise with me and fight harder for me than a man. I don't know a man might look at you see his daughter and fight as hard.
My lawyer told me that the state could make him pay for ALL LEGAL fees in a divorce. so you go for that. How does your state deal with infidelity? If his OW has a child by him you definitely have proof of an Affair.
As someone else said, the money of the marriage is yours not hers. He owes you and your children support. If you have been married for 20 years he has taken the better earning years of your life.
As far as your children, they have a right to express their opinion about the situation. If they know, I would reccommend that the 4 of you sit down and he listens to them. You all need to remain non accusatory. Keep it to "I" messages.
Ex. "Dad your affair hurts me. I don't know if I can respect you and trust you after you cheated on MOM".
YOur dau has a right to express this to the person causing her pain. Children always complain to mom, but don't tell dad what they think, I believe in this case, Dad NEEDS to hear what his children are thinking. Especially if he loves his children.
If he is in the "fog" of the affair, often the children's feelings start to penetrate that fog.
I think you can take your children out of the country. You are their mother and have every intention of bringing them back. If you were divorced and had joint custody it might be a problem. consult someone who knows. On the OW/OC forum post to CD Collins.
Maybe your church has a lawyer in the congregation who might advise you. Or, do you have family who can advise you, help with a lawyer.
I hope this helps. Stay strong. Take care of yourself and your children. Always remind him you love him and want your marriage to work ( that is if you do). However you don't want to be part of a threesome. A marriage consists of a mother, father and their children; an OW is an outsider and destroys the familial connection.

Take care,
Texasgirl.

<small>[ December 27, 2003, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Texasgirl ]</small>

I had such a busy day today. I had so much to say earlier but I'm little lost for words. WH came home today claiming he wanted to make amends. The 1t thing he asked me was "are you going to take me to my gig tomorrow." Because I had company I told him that we would talk later. This is crazy. He didn't want to make amends, he really wanted to know if I am still willing to kiss his butt and be his door mat. It really go ugly in here tonight. My youngest daughter went crazy. She told him that all he was was a sperm doner.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> have company have to finish in the morning.