A little back ground. WW came back last Saturday. Said she wanted to work things out. Said she would not leave again and told me it was different this time(she came back before for 2 days and left again). Said it wasn't because of the holidays etc. So, the day after Christmas here is what she wrote to me. Can you tell me if I have any chance of winning her back or has she made up her mind to leave again...

Husband,
Today was a good day. The girls seemed happy. But….my heart is somewhere else.
I do not want to hurt you. You are a good man. I knew I was hurting you and the girls and I felt like I was losing them and was afraid to end things completely with you because I might just lose them. And I’m not going to lie to you and say I am not nervous about the future. I was. You were (are) a steady provider. By leaving I knew I would have to start over and things would be tough for awhile. It was a scary thought. But, you know what, I’m not afraid anymore. I know I can do it.
Like I said, I don’t want to hurt you, but, I am going to tell you what and how I feel.
I know in tech school (both military at the time) that I didn’t love you the way you deserved to be loved. I knew you were a good person and after you left I was nervous about starting again in the ‘dating’ pool. Not sure if I would end up with someone who would be abusive. I didn’t really want to get married but even back then I didn’t want to hurt you.
Husband, I don’t love you. I like you. You are a good person. I can laugh and have some fun with you but I don’t love you. My heart isn’t and hasn’t been yours. I have cared. I never believed that I would ever love or be loved the way I thought love was. I know now what it is like to really love someone and to be loved the same way.
I know you, the girls and other people don’t ‘get it’. But, it really isn’t for anyone else to get. I came back out of fear. Fear of the future not being as easy as it has been and fear of damaging and losing the girls. I don’t want to live in fear and I don’t want to live without the love that I have found and haven’t felt in my life since I was a little girl. I remember feeling that happy, accepted and complete but it has been so long ago. For some reason I didn’t think I was good enough to have that or that something was wrong with me so I couldn’t have it. But it did happen for me and I don’t want to lose it. He may not be perfect but I never expected you or anyone else to be perfect. All I know is I love him. When he is sick I want to take care of him. When he says or does something I don’t agree with I want to tell him about it and challenge his thoughts. I want to hear him laugh and see him smile.
I want you to have someone who cares for you like this. You are a wonderful person and you deserve this. I know you will find it but Husband, it is not me. I’m sorry.
You said you don’t want just a room mate. I can’t be more than that to you. I don’t want you to hurt. I don’t want you to be depressed or have anxiety and need meds. But, I can’t pretend to feel more for you than I do and I can’t keep living with guilt. That is one of the reasons I keep flopping back and forth. Because I have so much guilt and I feel responsible for keeping everyone happy. I can’t do it. I can’t make everyone happy.
I don’t know what else to say. I thought you have a right to know what I am really thinking.
Wife
I know much of this is fog, but it hurts and I'm not sure if she will stay and work through this. It may also be alot of withdrawal pains also. I'm at my wits end and need some advice. Please help...

Hi,
I hope I can be of some help . I know that everyone's story here is different, but WSs have some common traits. I was a WW.

Coincidentally, I noticed that your kids' ages and length of marriage when it all started are similiar to mine--and your ages, too. Late thirties more or less.

To me your wife's letter is all fog. I would continue Plan A with her, and do my best to keep her at home with you and the kids. Explain to her that she's in withdrawal from the OM, and is in a huge state of confusion. Her feelings right now are normal as far as not feeling much for you in the way of romantic love.

I wish I could speak with her, and let her know that I felt much the same way after ExH and I first separated and ExOM was still living long distance. It was all still fantasy, 'la la' land with exOM and me. In time the A fizzled out, and I truly saw what an idiot I was for having left my wonderful exH for this creep I was involved with so foolishly. I dare say that day will come for your wife too. It did take a long time, I won't lie and say the fog lifted overnight.

It sounds like a good thing that your wife lived with this OM, and is now at home. Being with him didn't fill enough of her needs to make her stay.

Have you read "His Needs, Her Needs"? You should buy it and read it. Take the emotional needs quiz with your wife and work on filling those needs. Have you considered calling the Harleys for counseling? Many here have had much success with that.

Let me analyze some of her words, if that's okay:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Today was a good day. The girls seemed happy. But….my heart is somewhere else.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's confused. That is all this says to me. OM was all about fantasy, fluff, and no reality. Of course we all want sand castles in the sky and not the reality of our daily life. ( or so affairees think so , while in the midst of it.)


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not want to hurt you. You are a good man. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's still kind of clueless of how you feel, it seems. Of course you're hurt, and she's doing it blatantly .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And I’m not going to lie to you and say I am not nervous about the future. I was. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's normal to be nervous about the future during a crisis like this. No big deal to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You were (are) a steady provider. By leaving I knew I would have to start over and things would be tough for awhile. It was a scary thought. But, you know what, I’m not afraid anymore. I know I can do it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, she can carve out a life alone without your financial support. Right now she is blind, and not seeing the harsh reality of doing it alone. She's like I was a long time ago. She's forgotten her commitment to you and the kids. She's like an addict. That's the only way I can describe it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn’t really want to get married but even back then I didn’t want to hurt you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is more fog talk.

In fact, this is too:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Husband, I don’t love you. I like you. You are a good person. I can laugh and have some fun with you but I don’t love you. My heart isn’t and hasn’t been yours. I have cared.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I never believed that I would ever love or be loved the way I thought love was. I know now what it is like to really love someone and to be loved the same way.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is sure hard to read. I'm sorry she wrote this. It's pure nonsense, and part of the whole romantic fantasy of an affair.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know you, the girls and other people don’t ‘get it’. But, it really isn’t for anyone else to get. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This part I really do remember feeling. Please don't think I'm being trite here, but it was almost like I was 'brainwashed' by much of what the OM said to me. It was incredible! She could be feeling this way too. Again, it was like an addiction.

She then said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don’t want to live in fear and I don’t want to live without the love that I have found and haven’t felt in my life since I was a little girl. I remember feeling that happy, accepted and complete but it has been so long ago. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like she has very unrealistic expectations of love. Does she expect it to feel like the 'acceptance' we felt as an infant?

YOu know, it's just more fog talk.I bet when you were first together she did feel this way. She's just forgotten it now, to justify her affair.

This part really upset me to read:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All I know is I love him. When he is sick I want to take care of him. When he says or does something I don’t agree with I want to tell him about it and challenge his thoughts. I want to hear him laugh and see him smile.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is so sickening, I am sorry she wrote that to you. I don't believe it, really. If you were hurt, I'm sure she'd help you.


Did I ever tell my exH I didn't love him? No. Did I always feel love for him, even when in 'fog'? Yes, very much so. These words of your wife's are very hard for me to read, as it pains me to imagine how they must make you feel.

It baffles me that she doesn't see how lucky she is to still have YOUR love. She truly doesn't realize how lucky she is.

What do your kids think of all this? Have they met the OM? How does that go?

To me, you have two choices:

1) Let her know you've read the letter, you understand, and it's all part of the affair process so to speak. In time she'll feel differently, but your marriage can be stronger than ever if you work together. Assure her that her feelings as a WS are 'normal'.

The other choice is to:

2) Tell her to go on then, move out, and build a new life without you. Watch her struggle, hit rock bottom, and in the end I'll almost guarantee she'll end it with OM, or he'll dump her. Don't be too available to help her, and treat her coldly. She'll see that OM's a lying man, a cheater, and realize he's not to be trusted with anyone. It'll suddenly dawn on her that she was an idiot to leave you for this creep. She'll come crawling back to you, and you maybe won't want her back at that point. That can happen, you know!

I don't know if I've helped at all. Like I said earlier, we're all different.

I always felt I still loved my exH. But my actions didn't show it, so it didn't much matter, did it? Your wife has written about her feelings, but still to me her moving back says she does still care to a certain degree.

If I were you I'd pursue the first option, and try and have her stay there with you.

I assume she's written a NC letter, right? That has to be done.

One more thing- I think in some cases the WS doesn't wake up until they hit rock bottom. YOur wife hasn't had this sort of thing happen, has she? Does her family shun her for this behavior? That is awakening. How about the kids? She clearly doesn't see any consequences yet for her affair. I hope she repairs things before she has to get to that point.

Take care and I hope I've helped a bit,
H_P

H_P

Thank you for your perspective. After W came home from work last night I did talk to her. I may have been a little harsh and I hope I didn't make things worse.

First, a little background. My kids won't talk about their feelings. We had them go to a therapist but they didn't say a whole lot. I know they are hurt and have seen me at my worst. They do not like the OM and will not spend much time with W when she was with OM. Not that she wanted to spend a whole lot of time with them anyway. But, yet she says, she can't live without her kids. That was her whole purpose in life was for her kids and that she always wanted to be a good mom. I know I haven't been the best husband, actually, I've been a crappy husband for a long time, but I always loved my W but didn't know how or why I felt the way I felt. I have read many books since then and realized how emotional needs are what causes people to feel the way they do and I hope I now have the tools to work on our marriage...

I told W last night that I loved her. I told her that I believed in her and our marriage. I said that no one could love her as much as I. She asked why not. I said because we have so much history together and have a family with 2 beautiful daughters. I said that she had promised me and the kids that if she came back it would be for good and that it would be different this time. I said she lied straight up to me and the kids. I said that I told her that she would feel withdrawal and she would not like me and want to leave. She said I don't understand how she feels. I said if she left she was making the worst mistake of her life. She asked why. I said she would carry the emotional baggage of unfinished business with her and she would never be happy. I said she would be leaving the people that loved her the most, me and her Ds. She said the kids would be ok. I said no they wouldn't. I said we have done exactly what our parents did and the cycle would continue unless we stopped it. She said the kids have seen what a mess our marriage is and that was the lesson they'd learned and they would be ok. I said, what they have learned is that when things get tough it is ok to walk away. She didn't like that too much. Anyway, I said I love you and will do everthing to make things right between us. The choice is yours. I said if you decide to stay then you have to write that no contact letter you promised and stop all contact with OM. And that we would have to get into counseling. She said she had called the counselor to make an appt but the counselor wasn't in and hadn't called back. I said you make up your mind and I went to bed. I wanted to go back out and talk to her, but I made myself stay in bed. I hope I didn't love bust too bad and I hope she got my point... Do you think I was too harsh or was there something more I could have said?

Lost,
My children, by the way, have never shared their feelings much either. I know how that is--they're teens.

You said that your wife said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That was her whole purpose in life was for her kids and that she always wanted to be a good mom. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt much the same way. Now, in retrospect, I am ashamed of the A so much from the perspective of my children. Someday your wife may feel the same way. It only shows me how powerful evil can be that even a decent person can commit adultery.


It's funny, I've said many of the same things to my exH that you've said to your wife, and I was the WS.

I told him, as you told your wife--that no one could love him as I did. That will take time to sink in, and for her to realize it's most likely true.

Whenever I've brought up our shared history and children to my exH, it hasn't helped much. (30+ years of knowing each other!) Keep doing it though, maybe it's sinking in (I believe it has) and I haven't known it.

Your wife said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
She said I don't understand how she feels. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you read Orchid's post on reverse babble? I think you should, and I think you should appeal to her, Pepperband, and Redhat for advice. They're all former BSs. ( One is now divorced, and the others are still married)

SAying you don't understand how she feels is babble. Of course you don't! No one can crawl into anyone else's head.

My exH said too that the kids would be okay. They do adapt, all creatures do. This 'kid' argument doesn't seem to work well with people.

What finally seemed to work with my exH a few weeks ago was when I asked him if he was happier now than five years ago, before our marriage fell apart, the A, and the divorce. He of course said, "No."

I don't know if it would work if you asked your wife to picture the future as she's too much in fog to picture the bad things that will happen if you divorce and she's with OM, or some other guy.

Divorce is hard on kids, much harder than many think. Even when they're teens. I think it's almost worse when they're teens than when they're little.

I too said this to my exH:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said, what they have learned is that when things get tough it is ok to walk away. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely! This took time to take hold in my exH's heart, but I think it finally did a bit.

YOu said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you think I was too harsh or was there something more I could have said?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you were fine. You spoke from the heart, and you used logic too. I do think though that at times 'less is more' and perhaps people like me who say too much tend to go on too long! I don't know if you're in that category, but just something to think about.

Hemingway said, "Less is more." I think I need to remember that.

Keep telling her you love her, and want a life with her. I so wish she could have a picture of my life these past few years, and see the misery of divorce and wanting to rebuild a marriage when it is seemingly too late.

It sounds like you're on the right track in that she's called a counselor. Keep on that one! Just make sure it's a counselor who wants to rebuild a marriage. I would call the Harleys if I were in your shoes. Many counselors are not always wanting to help marriages, it seems to me.

Take care,
HP

I am sorry that you are going through this, no one should have to. Perhaps you should ask your wife what needs she feels that you are not meeting. She is obviously insecure, at least that's what I see in her letter. Sometimes people have to learn lessons the hard way and sometimes it is best that they do. All you can do for now is to keep showing her your support and attempt to make love bank deposits whenever possible. Demands and guilt will not work and will only serve to push her away more.

My H said that he wasn't 'in-love' w/ me... that I was a nice person and that he 'cared' for me... BUT, he was 'in-love' w/ OW.

I believe that your wife is similar. She longs for those 'in-love' feelings... found them w/ someone else... and now doesn't know what to trust... 'caring' or 'in-love.'

I am blessed that my H chose my character and 'our' love and family. He discovered that LOVE IS A DECISION. Love is not a feeling. "in-love" may make you feel fluttery or 'high'... but it is not trustworthy or lasting... @ least that is what he says now.

Your wife has to decide. Love or "in-love?" Perhaps Gary Smalley's book "Love is a Decision" would be a good one for her to read... if she is open to the idea.

and, you may have to ask different questions... discover what enables your wife to 'feel' in-love.... what fills her love bank... and work hard @ making those deposits... while watching the lovebusters which are withdrawals...

Cali

Dear Lwh,

You have received good help from H_P and others. At this time you have to now ask yourself questions similar to those below:

1. Is being OK for my children good enough?
The WS says the children will be ok, am I willing to settle for the same standard for my children?

2. WS says she never loved me. Then those children were created in a moment of _______?
She lied to you on the day you were married, before and after? How certain is she about all the words to the OM?

3. Do you really want the woman as she is now? Or do you want your real wife back? If so tell the one in front of you now (the one hurting your family) to go get your real wife, bring her back so you can tell her you love her, hug her and then you and the children tell your 'real' wife goodbye.

4. If the A means that much to her, then she s/b willing to sacrifice her motherhood. Because you are will not sacrifice your fatherhood for such selfish behavior.

Digest all of this first. Do not make any agreements in an emotional state. Don't give into her demands on her timetable. Don't say you will take her back and don't say you will never divorce her.

See the WS' count on being able to know the BS' direction. They make their A plans on it. It is best to keep her guessing. Don't be so anxious any more about restoring the M. Make you communication with her between your family vs her not you vs her.

Remember you and your children do not have an R with the OM. Don't enable the A.

L.

Dear Lost,
I just read your post and wanted to reply. I have a story to share with you, and I hope you find it encouraging.

I am the BS in this marriage. My FWH and I have been married 17 years and have a son. He is (thankfully now) a recovering alcoholic. He always provided us with all we needed financially but as the years passed, he left us emotionally bankrupt. I say "we" meaning myself and our child. Now, this was a very loving man, but he was in the throws of his addiction and could not see the change in his personality. He was never mean, just distant, uninvovled. The last year (pre-affair) was when his drinking really escalated. I became fed up, our son was becoming argumentative...just not a happy atmosphere at home. Like your wife stated, I just felt like I didn't love him any more...just felt friendly and caring for him, but that was about it. Secretly, even from my own conscience, I was harboring a great resentment due to what I felt was his decision to not even try to quit drinking. I was angry, but it came out in me as me feeling that I had lost my love for this man. I withdrew myself from him. I left him alone with his alcohol. We literally were like to ships passing in the night. Now, he is what is sometimes referred to (in error) as a "high functioning alcoholic" meaning that it doesn't seem to interfere with his work, etc. Now that he is sober we learned that it did. So, I really was in this alone...we were the only ones that saw him drinking up to 30 beers a night. Always at home.
We had always been very in love and affectionate. But with the onset of all of this, I convinced myself that I never had really loved him. I honestly couldn't remember ever loving him. But I believe now that this was my own heart in "self-preservation" mode. I was not the one presented with the opportunity to have my needs met by someone else. He was. A coworker who was going through a very messy divorce and had a dying mother found someone to help her...my husband who felt he had lost his whole family (I hade already told him I didn't love him any more. That I was so sorry and I wished the best for him. Blah, Blah...just like your wife, but like your wife, I truly felt it!!)
Well, 2 months later I found out about his affair. Luckily it hadn't had much time to form a deep commitment and was ended that same day of discovery. It was only then, when I first heard him telling someone "sweet dreams" at 1 am in the morning that I realized I did love this man. I couldn't even walk upright or breathe I was in such physical pain. I was sick to my stomach and hyperventilating all at the same time. I'm sure you felt much the same thing. But, boy it knocked some sense into my head. I handled it in a very non MB way (didn't know about MB at the time) and told him to make a decision right then and there. Luckily it was for me. So, we have been in recovery since February and he has been sober since April (funny, he too got sense knocked into his head,...IMPORTANT HERE: Said he finally realized that I really did love him when I accepted him back after what he did and actually told him I loved him still)
We have had an unbelievably wonderful rebirth of our marriage. I love him more now than I ever did. He finally knows what I need and want from him. Same for his needs and wants. We started out reading SAA and applying the principles, but also had two wonderful counselors who worked with us at different times to meet different needs (alcoholism and marriage). Please ask your wife to give you the benefit of reading SAA and His Needs, Her Needs and TALK about it!! Ask her if any of this hits home about how she may have fell out of love. Tell her you're not trying to force her to love you again, but want to know where it all went wrong. The time for brutal honesty is now. No LBing in these discussions or they will turn away. I had to learn to shut up and listen (not my strong suit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) I would also definitely recommend speaking immediately with one of the Harley's and then getting a counselor near your home. Just thinking one of the Harley's may be able to get her to at least start accepting the thought that your marriage is worth a try. After all, if the OM is such a great guy, surely he would wait for her if she finds that she just doesn't want the marriage. If he doesn't, then he wasn't her "soul mate", right? Surely he couldn't be happy with anyone else, right? (Sarcasm...sorry)
We are in a wonderful recovery and I rarely visit these boards any more. I find that encouraging...that life is getting back to normal, albeit a new normal. Matter of fact, we just celebrated what my H called a 2nd first Christmas together!

Best wishes to both of you. Please let her know that I am a living example of the fact that if you loved them once, then the love can be uncovered again. Actually, it can become stronger and more unbelievable than she can even realize!!

Faith

lwh,

You already get a lot of help and answer ot WS's behavior. Let me give you my 2¢.

You want your WW back ? don't take all of this personally. I know it is hard but look at is as if your love one insane. Forgive them for they don't know what they are talking about. She is confused ! and that means you still have chances. However once she leaves you, you have to plan B all the way and total dark and please promise me that you won't take her back so quickly next time.

All WS wants BS to make it easier for them to leave !. They will push your button and twist your heart out !. Stay focus and keep doing what is working.

Let me ask you some questions:

1. Where are you in addressing her greivance about you in M? (Plan A)
2. How are you doing in filling her top 5 ENs ?
3. Have you identify your LB lists to avoid?
4. What ENs are OM meeting ? you have to fillin that gap asap.
5. Are OM ready to take her back ... financially, emotionally and physically ?.

-rh-

I think fog does exist but it is not specific to ws, it affects all acronymns...The concept is overblown too much in discussions about relationships, and used to dismiss the real feelings, (and useful information ws communicate)....leading to disrespectful judgments which only serve to further convince a ws the bs has no real idea (or interest in) of the ws feelings/concerns. If a ws feelings of attraction to op are fog, and meaningless, then so were their feelings when they married you in the first place, it is the same process. So when you promote she should ignore these feelings and choose you (because they are just fog) you invalidate her, and create the thought in the ws she chose you for the same foggy reasons (and she essentially said that in her letter, did you see that?), so can leave you too. Playing with fog is a lot like playing with fire, usually not a good idea. I think the bs tend to sign on to fog, for their own well-being, it ameliorates feelings of rejection.

Your w letter was specific, cogent, and honest...not foggy at all. She has obviously thought about all this, her feelings, her motivations, what more do you want? She has comminicated, and you blow her off? Then you wonder why she doesn't feel safe (that is what she was saying) with you....YOU DON'T LISTEN TO HER. Your responses (that you posted) to her were all about YOU, and what you want. You were disprespectful (called her a liar), and manipulative (you were playing the guilt cards right and left).

She is essentially at a crossroads in her life, she does not want to spend the rest of her life yoked to a roomate out of duty. her kids are almost grown, and she is young enough to have another family (and bond through kids as you pointed out to her) if she wants too. She apprarently feels this op listens to her, and understands her feelings.....she told you this lih, she told you everything you need to know, and you didn't hear a thing.

The only thing foggy she is doing (and it is a biggy) is not realizing she cannot leave you for another man, that process screws up perceptions. She is doing the right thing, focusing on you, and herself, but you continue to hammer her and she will be gone IMO. Stop trying to educate her, stop trying to guilt her....leave her be, and be the best H (honestly, not by play-acting) you can be, validate her feelings (you are very lucky she revealed the thoughts she did). If she is the type who will read books, visit this site, attend counselling, then she will figure herself out....in the meantime you make the changes you need to make, stop lb'ing, and set her free to choose you or not in her own way, in her own time...no gaurantees, do not ask for any. You have to decide whether to demand NC, usually I agree with this, but not always....sometimes it is better to let the ws (the willing ones) study the literature, watch stuff awhile, and realize for themselves whether they stay or not, they must go through NC anyways for their own well-being.....if she will come here that will be explained to her. Although I do think in cases of physical contact a bs should insist on NC, and plan B immediately. Otherwise leave it up to her for awhile, but the deal should be she tells you about all contact and content of contact....YOU earn this trust by having absolutely NO REACTION, except thank-you. You should also be sure the om wife is informed if he is married (no exceptions to that).

That's about it IMO, not really that difficult, your options are limited, the only issue is your motivation and capacity to change (you indicated you have a lot of personal issues to improve). Your w sounded very much aware of where she is at, and indicated a willingness to do some work (even if it is motivated by kids), and indicated a considerate caring nature, that is all anyone deserves, and more than a lot get....get off her back, and go to work....on yourself...good luck.

<small>[ December 28, 2003, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

sufdb,

Thank you for your post. Believe it or not, it is the most important post I've read here. When I first read it, I was pretty angry and thought who the heck is this person. But then I reread it and reread it again. You are right, it has been about poor old me and not what she is trying to say. My defenses are up and my ability to listen has been down. I haven't really heard a word she said until I read your post. I guess I'm at a crossroads in my life also. I have to be honest with myself, pull down some of my defenses so I can listen and learn, but yet not open myself up so much that I get hurt again.

You are right. I have done a lot of love busting, disrespectful judgements, and dismiss her feelings. I have also been very down and filled with anxiety. I don't know how to be happy right now and I know she sees this and if I were her, I wouldn't want to spend time with someone that is always down. I'm not sure how to pull myself out of this though, when so many questions are yet to be answered. I feel like I need to know one way or another so I can prepare to work on my life. I guess I should just start living now and let the future work its way out. Please feel free to give me any more advice... Thanks again for helping...

Spoke with W today. Opened up my heart. Told her I didn't know what she needed from me and if I could ever make her feel the same things the OM does. I said I can do everything in my power to meet her needs and I said I think we could have a better marriage than we ever had. I said I needed to know what she needed from me. How could I make her want to stay. She said she doesn't know what she needs. She says that she feels the way she feels because she just does. How can I know what to do if she doesn't know? I guess I need to just do the best with the little knowledge I have and hope eventually she will be able to open up more. We haven't done the emotional questionaire and I don't think she is ready for that yet. I don't want to push her and let her work through this on her time line and not mine. She did say that if I picked the meat off the chicken in the fridge she would make something with it tomorrow. So, I guess that means I have at least made her want to stay one more day... I gave her the book Surviving an Affair. I said I don't know if she wants to read it or if it would help answer some of the questions or if she even wanted answers. I did say I would like her to read it though and left it at that. She left it where she was sitting. I don't know if she will read it or if she is interested right now. I just know, she will be here one more day and that is more than I knew yesterday...

Hi lwh,

I think the writing is on the wall at least for now.Are you going to go back into Plan B? If I were you I would.If WW is as decided as sufdb thinks she is by the letter or if she is NOT decided and is confused(fog or whatever) those are both situations where you move on in your life without putting too much thought and energy into what she is doing or thinking.

Don't hang on to the little tidbits of her time that she may happen to send your way.She is coming and going in your life right now which you don't need for your own wellbeing.I think it is really great that you have opened up your heart to her BUT be wise about just how much and how often you are doing that.

I personally do not think that being so open and understanding about all of this is the best way to motivate her.If she feels that you are always going to be there with an open mind and heart,like a friend,she will not get the feeling of losing you in anyway and therefore may still fence sit.You have made it abundantly clear to WW what your feelings are but I think now is the time to stop the talking and do more limit setting.Plan B.

I was telling uncomfortably numb what I would like to see you do: stop putting so much effort into being the understanding H,opening your heart and mind repeatedly,taking her small amounts of interaction and time and set her free,for you to be able to have a break and see things from a distance and perhaps get more insight.It's hard to see the forest through the trees.It's time to journey back out of the woods for a fresh perspective.Give it some time,then maybe go back in.Work on yourself and your children more FIRST.

As lengthy as the letter to you was,try not to over-analyze it.Your WW still sounds confused to me based on her actions and words.I would be setting up those boundaries again and stick to them.

O

W and I are in an awkward situation. Before she had the affair, I was on night shift. I would work from midnight to 7 am. I would sleep all day and try to spend time with her and the kids when I got up. I was always tired. Now she is on a rotating schedule. Right now her hours are 1pm to 11pm. She sleeps in and gets up just in time to go to work. She doesn't want to spend any time with me or the kids. I take any little time I can get with her and try to talk, but I seem to always be down and I don't want that to affect her any more than the withdrawals do. I am off this week so I can at least see her for a few minutes a day. However, next week I will be going back to work-dayshift hours and we will not be able to spend much time together if any. The counselor she was seeing called yesterday. I assume W was honest that she had tried to set up an appointment. I didn't set up an appointment but told counselor to call back in the morning and talk to W. I'm not sure of anything right now and that is worse than when she was gone. Even so, I don't feel as bad or anxious as I thought I'd feel. Actually, I don't know what I feel....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I take any little time I can get with her and try to talk</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">probably the last thing in the world that will work right now is talking about the state of your marriage. what follows is a quote from my journal thread ... it's one of the best pieces of advice i've gotten here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still seeking:
I have kind of made dating into a game ( that I play with my self.) I try to figure out ways to impress her - as if we had just met and I wanted her to think I am the most kind, careing, wonderful person there is. Not big flashy stuff, but little things that show I am paying attention. I order for her, I remember her favorites from long ago and when we go places we seldom go, I get exactly what she wants. If she meets me at work, I walk her back to her car in the parking lot and open the door. I say things like " I have always liked that about you."...... when she does something I like, or that is one of her endearing traits. I spend time thinking of her and how I could make her smile, things I could say to help her have a happy day.

As I said, I play this game with myself, she doesn't know about it. I have noticed she is a lot happier than she was 6 months ago. She is responding to it so well, I kind of like the game, and I believe I may just do it forever.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i consioder still seeking a mentor. you would do well to find one of your own.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She doesn't want to spend any time with me or the kids. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ride it out. she won't want to while she's in withdrawal. be a strong man and ride it out. she will need you to be an amazing friend to make it through this. it happens time and again that a wayward spouse leans heavily on the betrayed to get through the pain of withdrawal. set aside your needs. set aside your pride. set aside your hurt, and give. i know, it's not easy. but it's an important part of this process.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but I seem to always be down </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">go see a doctor and get anti-depressants if you need them. make some time and get some exercise each day (it will naturally elevate your seratonin and your mood). you cannot afford to be a gloomy gus. don't put on a show ... but don't let your depression get the best of you, either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">next week I will be going back to work-dayshift hours and we will not be able to spend much time together if any.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">find ways to make some time with her. can you see if you can trade shifts with someone? can you speak with your boss about what's going on? you'd be surprized at the ways that people will want to help you.

do you recall the four rules of successful marriages? care, protection, honesty and time. each of these are dependent on each other, but the foundation is time. couples in the healthiest of marriages spend a MINIMUM of 15 hours of uninterrupted time together per week. no kids. no tv. no other distractions.

no one expects you to hit this right away. but you need to find ways to make this happen, little by little.

one last thing ... right now your wife will not be able to lead you anywhere. don't expect her to be the proactive one. that's your job. stand up and quietly lead her back to your marriage.

LWH,

Ok, I think I would like to offer you a different perspective here. I don't care much for sufdb in his present or past incarnation, but I do think he is right that you need to "read" her letter.

Then, I feel you should smile, laugh, and nod your head. For you have failed to see what she has done. She has been honest with you (at least from where she is). She has told you exactly how she "feels" right NOW. And the fact that she took the time to do this, and was honest with you, is a GOOD THING. A GREAT thing actually.

It has already started you thinking about YOUR attitude and your appearance to her, hasn't it?

What I see your W doing is trying to be honest. Yes, she is telling you why she "thinks" she had the affair and should leave,but notice what she is saying. It is about her "feelings". LWH, feelings change and can be changed. THat is the good news.

So let's start from the point of view, that she is communicating with you. That she is NOT gone. That she holds little hope. Fine! She doesn't have to hold hope, YOU DO.

I would strongly recommend that when you see her tonight, you tell her that you have been thinking and rereading her letter. Tell her it hurt you, but that you want to THANK her from the bottom of your heart for her honesty, for telling you how she feels, for letting you into her heart. Acknowledge that she has little or no hope for the marriage, and tell her you do agree with her position.

HOWEVER, now that you have seen her heart and searched your own, you DO HAVE HOPE. You ARE willing to work on that hope, and that you require nothing of her other than she allow you to be her friend first, and hopefully her lover later. You would hope that she would give you the chance by moving OM out of the picture for awhile.

Then my friend I would counsel you to be open with her. This is NOT about your hurt now. It is about her "feelings" now. It is about seeing if the commitment that you both made to each other and yes your children, can be met in a way that makes you both happy.

Tell her you know she misses the OM. It is normal. In fact, tell her that you really appreciate it if she would talk to you about her feelings for OM. You know it may hurt, but you want to hear what is bothering her. It is part of withdrawal. Tell her you gave her the book Surviving an Affair, not so much to "educate" her and show her how wrong she was, but to help her address what has happened and so that she could better evaluate if she should have any "hope". It was a gift from you to her. You hope she accepts your gift.

LWH, take charge of this marriage by NOT waiting for her to have "hope". But, acting on your own hope, by acting as if you are committed to this marriage. By enduring the obvious pain you are and will be in. LWH, now is the time to lose the LB's. It is time for you to behave better than you or she has in this marriage. Trust me on one thing, IF you give it your best, and learn to stand back and give the marriage the best shot, if you will truely listen to her as if she is talking about herself and NOT about you, then whether this works out or not you will win.

Listen to your W, repeat what you think she said, and ask her if you understand it correctly. Act like a friend to her, and listen to her worries, her desires, her fears. You got a glimpse of them in her letter, accept that is what you got. A letter about her, NOT you. But also continue to look inside and decide if you want to be happy or not. If you do, then you need to take joy in the life you have not one you wish you had. Right now you have healthy children, a job, and a W at home. Smile LWH. You have a job to do, and you cannot do it with the woe is me approach. It is YOUR LIFE, lead it properly with a smile and HOPE for a good future, and I suspect you will get a much better future, than you currently have as a PRESENT.

Time for an 'attitude adjustment' LWH. Only you can do it.

So to summarize, I think the letter is "good" news. It is her honest "feelings" and it let's you into her heart. Stay in her heart by sharing her "feelings" and not condemning them. You MUST be her friend before you can be her lover.

Please think about what I have said and I hope something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL

WW opened up to me this morning. She says she doesn't want to hurt me or the kids, but she isn't happy. She wants to go back to the OM and I don't think there is anything that I can say or do that will convince her to stay. I said to her that I loved her and believed in her and our marriage. I said I feel we could work through this and have a better marriage than we ever did. I told her I had alot of issues that I've been dealing with and opened up to her. I said I know she loves OM and she may never love me the same way, but I said I think she could still love me. She asked if I would throw all her stuff out like last time if she went back. I said I didn't know. I said I would be angry and at least she would know I care. She said she didn't want the girls to go through this again. She says the youngest was beginning to come around but she doesn't think our oldest will. Then she said the oldest will be here only for another year or so anyway. I said and maybe I shouldn't have, but I told her about this book on divorce I started reading and the effect it has on us. I said we both grew up in families with divorce and look where we are at. I said I believed in our marriage and we could work through this. I also found this quote on Cerri's site about marriage isn't about making you happy. You have to do that on your own, but marriage was about committment, security and support... I am not sure where this will take us, but I'm scared, but yet ok....

I feel the allure of the OM is too great for her. I think she is ready to go back. I asked her if she was coming home after work, she said, 'I have to'. I don't know whether that meant because of her belongings or because she plans on staying. I am again on that rollercoaster of uncertainty. I feel I have at least done a better job of plan A'ing her than when she came back last time and when she originally left. I feel if she leaves she knows she has a place to come back to, even if it wouldn't be easy. I think I'll go pray some more. It has gotten me this far...

LWH,

Did you read what I posted to you?? If so do what I said talk to her, thank her, tell her what is in her heart.

Then if she insists on going, let her go. Do it with Grace and love. If you love her you want her happy. She doesn't know she has to make her own happiness, but you know it. She may well be back, because if you rise above your self-protection tendencies (very normal by the way) and take care of your W, you will leave her with many many messages that she will have a hard time ignoring.

Don't throw her clothing out. Don't get mad. Don't do anything but hug her, tell her how you feel about her, and offer her hope IF she changes her mind. You have no idea the power of this on your W, and on your children. You need to set the standard in this family, and it is time the standard was raised to a higher level. Do it!

Of course she wants to run back to OM. He is safe. THere are no problems there (yet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ). She doesn't have to face her children and you. It is the easiest way. She will learn differently.

The easiest way is for you to LB her right out the door and to her car. Act mad, so she knows you are hurt, act mean so she knows you disgusted. BUT, LWH, she already knows all of these things. What she doesn't know is how deeply you love her, show her that for a change of pace and let that be her parting memory of you IF she actually does leave.

LWH, your life is NOT going to end if she leaves. You have your children, your job, family, many things going for you. If worse comes to worse, she will be worse off, you won't be IF you handle this properly.

So LWH what's it going to be? Your call, your life.

God Bless,

JL

lwh — you heard the man. jl is among the best there is here. you'd do well to learn from him. i know i did.