All right, turn over a new leaf, get rid of that monster anchor of a thread. We were getting lousy gas mileage.<P>I'm here to encourage you to grab the bull by the horns, get the truth out of your W, counsel with Steve Harley, and, probably, get into Plan B pretty rapidly, which will entail some sort of housing change.<P>Right now, your W is in a situation which Harley calls "having her cake and eating it too". It is very comfortable....an OP meets certain ENs, perhaps SF, Affection, Conversation, Admiration, ....you are left meeting Family Commitment, Domestic Support, Financial Support. She winds up holding a full house, and your needs go unmet. Sure you can wait it out and hope that her affair dies, but there is a good possibility that your love will be gone by then too, killed by daily proximity to a fogged spouse.<P>Plan B will be a cold salmon of reality right across her face. Is her OM going to be around to vacuum and drive the kids to soccer and cover for her hangovers in the AM? I doubt it, the probable suspect is a nightclub musician, right? Rather than having two men meet her ENs as she directs, let her have to make a choice, over time, not tomorrow, based on who will be the best partner. I think that over time your hand will strengthen there. <P>You have gotten as far as you can with Plan A -- she recognizes your changes, has commented on them, says you're a changed person. Now, it becomes apparent that there is an OM, which explains while her heart has had teflon around it as you've made your plan A efforts. <P>Next step is to kill the affair, and when she reassesses in the dust of the aftermath, there you are with your perfect Plan A record, the father of her children (hey! and 40 pounds skinnier! ).<P>It disturbs me to hear your current take on things...it sounds a lot like you are slipping into serious withdrawal. Talk to Steve, put on the gloves, and get in the fight! <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 21, 2001).]

Impulsive,<P>I am not familiar with your situation, but MikeC2 is familiar with mine. Reading his advice, you might want to read a thread that I posted last week. I apologize for not knowing how to provide a direct link. But do a search instead on my username to find it.<P>I Plan A'd my heart out (literally) for about ten months, with the help of a lot of coaching from Jennifer. In the meantime, my wife went from "I only want a divorce" to "knowing that we shouldn't be divorced." I was doing a great job of meeting her EN's and not LB'ing, she recognized the changes, but she really had no desire to meet my EN's. Anyway, I was at the point that I needed Plan B for ME! My Plan B was simple: separate for protection, or she participates in rebuilding our marriage through MB counseling. She chose the counseling.<P>Granted, my story does not include an affair, either EA or PA. My wife might have had visions or dreams of a wonderful single life, playing the field, etc., but I don't think it involved any particular individual.<P>I know the Harley method is centered on meeting your wife's needs and the natural return of her feelings of love by you meeting those needs. But, in the instance of an affair, it gets to be a contest of who's depositing the most in her Love Bank. She's got a great life; why would she want to give up either one of you? If you have done a good job in your Plan A though, there comes a time to make her choose (i.e., Plan B). The other alternative is that you continue to Plan A until you really burn out, then you're really not going to care what happens with her anymore, and you will be the one seeking the divorce attorney. <P>Get some confirmation from Steve or Jennifer. Plan B is probably something you want to do correctly, and get their advice on. <P>

Impy,<P>It's been quite a while since I've posted to you, and I'm sorry to see the turn of events. However, this may be for the better. Instead of trying and trying, wondering why you weren't getting anywhere you now know where things stand.<P>The odds are greatly in your favor that the A will die and you'll have your chance. I think Mike has given you great advice. An unrequited Plan A is not meant to last forever. It's time to seriously consider Plan B before you can no longer do a good Plan A and lovebust, leaving her with bad memories of you instead of good ones. Calling a Harley is a good thought too; maybe you can't do long-term counseling right now, but a session or two to give you a strategy in which you have confidence could save your marriage.<P>Please don't give up, but do consider the need to change tactics now.<P>Steve

Well here is the deal. My love bank is empty. I gave and gave and asked nothing in return for 10 months. I told my wife two days ago that I don't want to be married anymore. I don't want to talk or argue I just want her to get on with her life as I get on with mine. I want her to be happy and I can't wait to be happy. SHe looked at me and seen the seriousness in my face and heard it in my voice. I told her that I want her to file for separation and divorce, and I will do the best I can to be fiancially supportive. I don't want to leave her high and dry but, for my mental, and emotional health it's time for me to move on. Now she is saying that is not what she wants. She's sorry she has been a _itch for so long and she wants to make things better. For the people that have been following my struggle I know your not going to understand that I don't want it. I numb. I don't feel for her like that right now. I want to move out. I'm not going to make any knee jerk reactions but I'm confused and battle weary.

Impulsive I am sorry for your situation. I know that I am not qualified on this forum as some of the people who have been here much longer, but i have also been married for a considerable amount of time and have also been left by my h. He was very angry with me, he was also very mean, it didn't last 10 months the longest was just around the 5 month mark.<p>The problem that I see is that you have been posting how badly you wanted this woman, how badly you needed this marriage to work. Now she is saying OK and your saying NO. I'm sorry that this lasted for so long but this is your only open door in 10 months you walk through it or close it for good. Getting even with her will not make you feel better about what you have gone through you must be the bigger man.<p>You described that you are numb, numb is what you go through when you aren't feeling anything at all. When my h did come back I was so relieved, then I went through a period where I was so resentful and angry because he had hurt me so badly and I didn't trust him anymore not to do it again. You have stayed for 10 months, slept on the couch, not had sf, and was treated badly but the fact that you did this for so long tells me how much you do love your wife. When the numbness eventually wears off then what?<p>Make sure that she isn't just saying this because she is afraid of being alone. If she really is ready to work on this, then this is what you have wanted for so long. You have to work on that resentment, you will have to see a counselor for probably quite some time. You have earned this, you can't walk away now without seeing if there is a chance, if anything do this just so you will know that you have done absolutely everything that you could to stay together.<p>Good Luck and Please keep posting.....Toni

Impy:<p>I have followed your post off and on for awhile now. I think I know how you must feel, but I have a suggestion for you. <p>Toni_29again has made some good points; However, IMHO, I would look for some "middle ground". In other words, I would leave for awhile, but NOT for good. Leave just long enough for your WS to know that you mean business, and more importantly, this will give you some time to think about what you REALLY want! Make sense? <p>I'm so sorry you're going through this right now! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I wish I had some more advice for you, but I don't. <p>Good luck, and God Bless!<p>HT

Well the wife and I had a conversation that I think is going to set the tone for the conclusion of our marriage. The bottom line rests on the fact that I refuse to live anymore of my life miserably. She said to me that she thinks that us trying to live in the same house, and sleeping in the same bed is a mistake. I agreed. She went back to saying the same old things she was saying back in March and before. The difference is now I refuse to argue, cry and beg her to reconsider. I told her I agree whole heartedly. I will be working hard to find a suitable apartment for myself. In the mean time I told her not to feel any responsibility towards meeting any of my needs. I don't want her to feel guilty or obligated to meet any of my needs because her trying to meet my needs is a recipe for frustration. She sits back and sucks up all the benefits of me living there and leaves me high and dry constantly. I told her that I will pay the majority of the bills and do my share of the house cleaning, and stay out of her way as much as possible. This is it. I'm at peace! There was a time when my heart ached at the very thought of living without her, but surprisingly I feel o.k.. I don't want to jump for joy but I look forward to having peace of mind. I can relate to Student's post on celibacy. I'm looking forward to geting in touch with my inner loneliness. I allowed guilt to beat the crap out of me for the last 10 months. No longer. I can't change the past, but I can learn from it and focus on being better and positive in the future. The wife says that the changes are wonderful but she just doesn't know how to get out of, or over the past. She refuse to consider counselling, so there is no alternatives left but, to allow her to live in the past and I start focusing on my life as a wonderful father and person single. I regret the fact that we have two wonderful boys that will be devestated by the months to come but I drove myself to the brink of emotional and mental destruction trying to save a marriage unilaterally. It doesn't work. It takes two. God knows I gave it my all but once you've done all you can do and you still fall short, what can you do????

Hey, Impy! <p>I'm truly sorry for what is happening with your M! I can't imagine how you must feel, but I STILL wouldn't give up hope that things won't turn around for you. <p>Give Plan B a chance to work! I'd be willing to bet that your WS will (eventually) see the light, and come "begging" for you to come back to her! You may choose NOT to go back, but I wouldn't say that there's NO CHANCE of reconciliation! <p>I do believe that you are doing the right thing by leaving. And, I'm happy that you feel GOOD about yourself! But, don't EVER give up on love, or the possibility that you and your W can get back together! <p>I'll keep you in my prayers!<p>God Bless!<p>HT

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by impulsive:
<strong>The wife says that the changes are wonderful but she just doesn't know how to get out of, or over the past. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hi Impy,<p>I know this feels like the beginning of the end, but it may just be the end of the beginning.<p>Your W has been feeling "trapped" in the marriage. Now, that is gone. You are strong and ready to move on. Oftentimes that is suddenly attractive, hence, perhaps, her initial reaction.<p>In effect, this is sort of Plan B. I think once you are out of the house, not being a domestic helpmate, not being the constant guilty "bad wife" reminder of whatever EA or PA there was or is or may have been.<p>You are strong, and that is attractive. I predict there will be serious efforts at reconciliation from her, perhaps not until you are out of the house for awhile. But your Plan A did have an effect, both on her and on your own mental process about the marriage. You did a great job.<p>Keep us posted. <p>Happy Holidays,<p>Mike

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mike C2:
<strong><p>Hi Impy,<p>I know this feels like the beginning of the end, but it may just be the end of the beginning.<p>Your W has been feeling "trapped" in the marriage. Now, that is gone. You are strong and ready to move on. Oftentimes that is suddenly attractive, hence, perhaps, her initial reaction.<p>In effect, this is sort of Plan B. I think once you are out of the house, not being a domestic helpmate, not being the constant guilty "bad wife" reminder of whatever EA or PA there was or is or may have been.<p>You are strong, and that is attractive. I predict there will be serious efforts at reconciliation from her, perhaps not until you are out of the house for awhile. But your Plan A did have an effect, both on her and on your own mental process about the marriage. You did a great job.<p>Keep us posted. <p>Happy Holidays,<p>Mike</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Mike C2:<p>Very well said! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Impy: Listen to what Mike has told you, because it makes all the sense in the world!! [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>God Bless!<p>HT

Thanks for the response guys. I'm not happy about my situation but I am happy about the mental and emotional strength I've developed. I hate coming home. I hate being around the house while she is there. I took the boys to Appleby's for lunch after school today and watching them eat in there "happy to be with their father bliss" hit me right in the heart. They have no idea what's coming. Pray for them and me please!!!!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by impulsive:
[QB]I hate coming home. I hate being around the house while she is there. [QB]<hr></blockquote><p>I do believe that if you continue to be strong, and move out, she will be coming to you regarding reconciliation. If you look at the old message that startyed this thread, that was where I though your hope lay.<p>At that point, your will to work on the marriage may well be gone. But, at that point, think of this. You have been asking her to work on it when her will was gone. See how tough it is? And you know that she hung in there for a long time even before that.....keep that in mind down the road.

I need help big time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Talk Amigo. Havent heard from you in a while.

I'm really wondering if impulsive stopped posting because of a couple of very rude replies on his last post.<p>People started to ask him if he wasn't going to listen and contact the harley's then why is he even posting.<p>He was still posting because he was going through the hardest time of his life. He needed somebody and this is what this site is supposed to be any way isn't it?<p>I think it is so rude to judge how long someone is supposed to feel or act during a seperation from a spouse. Impulsive really loves his wife and when he was faced with this rejection he needed friends, I just didn't know that there was a time limit on these things.<p>The people I am referring to know who they are and the things that were said. Just hope that when you are in your darkest time and are in need that you will have unconditional friendships there to pick you up.<p>Toni

.<p>[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Mike C2 ]</p>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Toni_29again:
<strong>I'm really wondering if impulsive stopped posting because of a couple of very rude replies on his last post.</strong><p>Can you be specific?<p><strong>He was still posting because he was going through the hardest time of his life. He needed somebody and this is what this site is supposed to be any way isn't it?</strong><p>I'll give you partial credit on that. This is not really a 'support' forum, I think, although certainly wonderful support is given and received here. It is actually, by definition, a place for addressing questions about MarriageBuilders programs. Certainly, there is a lot of pain and emotion here, and there are many wonderful, nurturing, supportive members. Also there are a lot of members with knowledge of MB principles from their own reading or counseling with the Harleys. It is a good combination, but I wouldn't weight one over the other.<p><strong>I think it is so rude to judge how long someone is supposed to feel or act during a seperation from a spouse. Impulsive really loves his wife and when he was faced with this rejection he needed friends, I just didn't know that there was a time limit on these things.</strong><p>Well, if you read the hundreds of posts on and by impulsive, most of them are not him asking for support but are more him asking for advice on MB, which I think was generously extended by the community, and will continue to be.<p>I'm not sure which posts you felt were rude, and I'm not discounting the fact that there may be some there, but I know that I benefited most powerfully from the brutally frank, between-the-eyes, posts by veterans like K and Karenna and Kam in getting me to straighten out my Plan A, get some counseling from the Harleys, and change my marital behaviors before it is too late.<p>Had I merely received an emotional lozenge at the time, I would be divorced now.<p><strong>The people I am referring to know who they are and the things that were said. Just hope that when you are in your darkest time and are in need that you will have unconditional friendships there to pick you up.Toni</strong><p>Interesting comment, given that the key underpinning of MB is the inherent danger of the myth of unconditional love. Read up on it.<p>As a mid-level vet here, the greatest tragedies I have seen is where someone was deluded into ignoring the obvious signs of an affair until it was too late, and/or exerted their last ounces of marital energy and love on a misguided and flawed Plan A. I came within a whisker of that. Unfortunately, sometimes the "support" on this board has perhaps enabled that. Sometimes your best friends are the ones that tell you the brutal truth, and shake you by the shoulders to launch you into the necessary action.<p>Sorry to sound preachy.

Preach it, brother. Playing patty-cake to make someone feel good helps no one. There are good and bad ways to communicate anything (I've used 'em all, mostly not intending the bad ones), but sometimes just the message is uncomfortable no matter how ya say it. Like confronting an alcoholic.

The reason I'm posting less is because I'm emotionally empty. I'm tired and don't have the energy to live like this anymore. I'm going forward with my life. My wife is stuck in her issues. She is stuck somewhere I can't help. SHe is stuck in a time warp in 1995. Things I did while I was lost I can't change. She says she can't let them go. I have spent the last entire year of my life making changes and being a wonderful person to her and trying to prove to her that I love her and I want to save my marriage and that the mistakes I made in the past will never happen again. She has rejected me over and over again. She has taken all the positives and benefits and left me emotionally empty. She feels justified because it's payback somehow. We spent the weekend in Toronto w/ the family. It started out being a wonderful time together. We got in the bed Friday night and became somewhat sexual. She was her usual cold self. Telling me don't take off her clothes let her just get me off with a hand job. I was so horney after not having sex since Thanksgiving that I just sat back and tried to enjoy it. SHe became aroused and afforded me the PRIVILIGE of going down on her. I tried for almost two hours to bring her to a orgasm. I knew earlier in the night she was way to drunk to reach a orgasm because it's always been the pattern. When she is drunk she stays on the brink of a orgasm for hours but can't physically come! Anyway After two hours of killing myself trying not to come myself until she reaches a orgasm first, I came and she got up and was as rude as I've seen her ever. I didn't even say a word. I was at the point where I knew I was finish. The next morning I was content to never speak to her again in life. She wakes up with a splitting headaches and wants to be babied. She says hug me and pamper me. Forgive me I was drunk B.S. I looked at her like your kidding right? She says I'm sorry forgive me. Against my better judgement I say grudges are counterproductive and try to enjoy the rest of the weekend. WE do it was semi pleasant. We get home and I swear she reverted back to the same old distant cold person. I calmy say, you know if you would stop working so hard to be distant and fighting every ounce of affection and love I try to direct your way our marriage might have a chance. She says I should'nt have to try to love you, if I loved you it should come naturally. I told her that is fairytale stuff. Love and marriage is something that has to be worked on and cultivated like a plant. Watered and nurtured. Time and energy. She says well I don't want that type of love. She says that over the weekend that the only reason she was so nice was because she felt trapped in the car and the hotel with me and she had to force herself to be nice and pleasant or else it would have been a miserable weekend. That was it for me. I told her that I don't want to live like this one more day. I feel like the biggest jerk in the world. Wasting time, energy and emotions on a women that is hell bent on spending the rest of her life misereable. I told her I want to be in love. I have love to give and I want to experience the joys of companionship. A sincere hug, A kiss. I haven't kiss my wife in over a year. Even when we were having sex she didn't want to kiss she says that's way to intimate. I felt like I was just servicing her. The last three times we have had sex it has been when she is drunk. She won't even try while she is sober. Then she can't come while she is drunk so she get's nasty and frustrated. Sex with her is a exercise in frustration. Try to talk to her and she huffs and puffs about how tired she is of talking. Try to get counseling she doesn't want to. She is content to stay in the same house withdrawn, and miserable. I hanging by a very thin emotional thread. I told her that I refuse to be rude and nasty but I can't live like this one more day. I don't want to be intimate. I don't want a connection anymore because everytime I try she pulls the footbal away like Lucy did Charlie Brown over and over and over. I just want to live a happy existence with my boys and focus her right out of my life and mind and consiousness. I want love so bad I hurts to think about. Has anybody her ever slept with a fridgerator before? Boy it's cold.

Hi Impy,<p>Good to see you back posting, although I'm sorry things are not going well.<p>How are things on the financial front? I really think that is her number one EN, and until she sees some securoty there she is not going to open herself up to a future with you. I think a lot of the problems in these areas come from different expectations and perspectives....0ne partner thinks if the bills are getting paid each month everything if fine, the other wants a million bucks in CDs for emergencies. It is very hard to commit to someone that has a lower mental standard of financial security, I think.<p>You adequately describe what is going on....you are filling in a huge lovebank deficit, each EN is a shovel load into the hole that was dug by you over the years. Unfortunately, each LB and coerced sexual encounter is a shovelful back out of the hiole, and that is where the lack of progress comes from...<p>I think there is a big gorilla in the middle of the rom thawt neither of you are discussing, and that is the possibility of an OM. At one point she actually confesseed toy iu, right? Then took it back. I think if you go over to JFO and read Persistant's thread, (bring lunch) you'll see that once the trutyh is out there is at least the hopew of building a new relationship on honesty.<p>My concern now is that your lovebank is being excavated in the same manner hers was over the years. I believe that if you were in counseling with the Halrey's the reality of her OM would have been exposed and perhaps you would have gone throigh a Plan B and maybe been reconciled now on a more healthy basis. I realize that it is difficult to go that route with only one person trying, and financial problems, but I do think you have been doing a really good job, Impy. <p>Please keep us posted.