Hi-
I really don't have a lot of people to share with.
Long story short.
Wife and I, 3rd.marriage for each.
Both suffered infidelity and cruel circumstances in our 1st 18 year marriages.
Second marriages were not marred by infidelity, but neglect. My wife became severe alcoholic shortly after her father died. We have Grandkids together and all get along well.

Over the last 4 years I discovered a couple emotional affairs that my wife had initiated. I was quite shocked and did act out.
As time went on, we still would go out dancing, etc, but intimacy has waned badly. She started taking separate vacations, and avoiding opportunities for us.
We were stuck in a resentment/ reactive cycle.
She filed for divorce in May. In June I asked her if she loved me, she said that she did. I asked her to stop the D. She apparently did. While it is still on the county court docket, nothing has been occurring to advance the case.
However, she has a rental property nearby. It became available and while I was away for a few days she moved out... I came home to an essentially empty house.
Again, there was chaos, but we did agree that we care, don't was D, and can agree to be honest.

So for the past month we have been consistently kind, and doing well despite serious issues. She had severe poison Ivy, and blood.poisoning, I had a severe roof leak, truck broke down, 💔 anxious and scared.... but we have been very successful in making our way forward and supporting one another.
But there is still an undercurrent of resentment.
I am currently spending the night with my lovely wife 2 or 3 nights a week.
I am reading His Needs Her needs again.
I am engaging in any social opportunities with my wife and we both seem to enjoy our time together.
I have owned up to my insecurities after the E.Affair and I had threatened D in the previous months as if seemed she truly didn't want me. A profoundly bad mistake on my part.
Currently working on just having fun being able to work, play, or entertain grand children together and practicing good caring skills Consistently.

Thanks for your time. There aren't many pro marriage people around. I do have a pretty good group of friends who care about both of us.

Who were the EA’s with? Same OM or different OM? How did you find out about them? Did you expose her EAs? Has she put extraordinary precautions in place? Has she giveen you Just Compensation?

Are the EAs over?

Ok -
It's been a very active week...
Tuesday I was able to secure an appointment with Steve Harley. a small miracle in my estimation. I was a wreck going into it. pressured by work projects, schedule conflicts, and more.
Long story short I was able to get with my wife, present the basic bullet points of why this 'program' is different, and why I was hopeful, and inclined to fund & lead this project.
She was a bit impressed that I reached out for help. Even more impressed, nearly skeptical, that I was able to meet with Steve same day.
Wednesday I was served with the actual D papers...I was devestated. I reached out to my wife, as we had to bowl together on a league in the evening. We are not fighting, and communication has been very good. We got through it gracefully, and managed to wrap up this league gaining a few places in the standings.
The next night I gave her a hand at her place wrapping up a big project. Since I was an obvious wreck due to no sleep she said perhaps I should stay overnight. We both slept very well.
Quite a bit of the old fun, banter and light hearted communication we enjoy when things are good. Also a few triggering situations due to the court action, and an issue with one of our children. However all of these situations were delt with in a supportive manner. I did get to explain a little bit of the program, being intentional with listening, Intentional Care, and other facets of Marriage Builders.
Last night she was excited to see an Elvis impersonator. we both had a rough week and missed the fact that the venue was 50 miles away... So after a good laugh and mutual appologies, we found a nice dinner and turned in early.
We cleaned her place together this morning, as I have been spending 4 or 5 nights a week there. She is mildly disturbed by this as she had thought we would see one another on weekends only. But various difficulties have made it more advantageous for us to work closely together.
So I did ask her to end the nascent EA, and she she agreed.
She also agreed that she will participate in counseling. And she's planning recreational things out into October with extended family... These things had stopped back in May.
I did get to apologize for some previous LB behaviors, and have had a great deal of contact with her to successfully demonstrate careing, intentional support. I have also had occasion to request support, and she readily helped.

So she's in the uncomfortable position of doing things the Marriage Builders way, which is a bit intensive and dirrect for a person with a avoidant attachment style.

She had originally thought we might see one another as time allowed of weekends. Our schedules seem to allow for 20 to 50 hours a week together so I am happy for that.
I have had a great deal of difficulty getting on the board to post and update but I think that is resolved.

I am hopefull that recovery is in progress.

Still ahve D papers sitting on my counter.... I will have to retain a lawyer and answer in court in the next 2 weeks. I did mention to my Wife that I am very concerned by the adversarial nature of the D process, Lawyers, etc... She offered no response, but did nothing to encourage the D. She also reviewed potential solutions to a couple of computer issues . The proposed solutions are important to me as they are an important step towards loving interdependance, open communication, and Decision Making. So I am pretty happy.

Not sure when, how to try to get D off the table .

Wow - I would appreciate any suggestions form experienced hands here.

Spent another glorious day and night with my lovely wife . Woke after a lovely nights sleep together. We easily packed the boat and headed out on the lake with one of our Dogs. Enjoyed the day together. even a minor mishap (dog fell off dock) was handled easily. She's acting more like she did when we were dating, relaxed, kind, and some good natured teasing.

Sunday I requested that she withdraw the D. I briefly outlined the MB progam. She quietly said she had to think... No angst, no anger on her face. We spent another nice night together.

It's very encouraging that there has been such an improvement in your relationship.

Have you had a conversation with her about the divorce? Asking her to withdraw it is not the same as talking about it.

Why did she want it in the first place? What were her complaints about the marriage? At the time she initiated, was there anything you could have done to get her to reconsider? Did you ever ask her that?

Why did she seem to put it on hold? Did you ever talk about why?

Why were divorce papers later served? Did you ever ask?

There seems to be some mystification about her feelings on your part. Have you tried to talk about what has been wrong, and whether/how it can be improved?

What did Steve Harley suggest? What is the plan?

I think you are talking about the Marriage Builders programme too much. You need to avoid at all costs coming across as if you want to educate your wife - as if you know better and she would do well to listen to you. You need to use the programme, not talk about it. You are doing a really good job by making all your "dates" together enjoyable. You should focus on that for the moment, unless you get different advice from Steve Harley.

Please try and answer my questions. You were asked questions by Brain Hurts in July, and you never responded. If people see you doing that, they are less inclined to put time into helping you.

Yes - I have asked about the D. She is reluctant to discus. She said she didn't feel appreciated, or heard. Also if she came home from work early and I was working in the kitchen she would either be angry or disgusted... I live here, I can't keep it neat 24/7 but I have demonstrated my commitment to keep things tidy, here at out home, and at her place. She said she felt I was interested in my phone, not her. However I have taken to putting my phone away when we are together, unless she asks me to look something up.

Yes - I believe the EA is done. She offered to end it, and get off dating site account she created after filing fo r D.

The cycles of her retreating, being cold, and blowing up lengthen out. So eventually I said if you really don't love me then go. We both acknowledge our part, and willingness to not repeat this in the future. So far honesty, and intentional undivided attention have been a big blessing. Steve said appo;logize for being 'late' with the MB program, but outline the concept, and see if she will bite. Seems likely.

We are planning to travel to Northern Michigan this weekend.

If D isn't ended I will need to pay lawyers and that would greatly complicate things in a bad way.

Also - Yes I was shocked, blindsided.

Yes - We have had a number of quiet, tended, talks about what went wrong, why we each saw something different, and misunderstood the other's reaction. We also have not 'gone to bed mad'. We had an issue or two later at night, and we went to bed together in a loving way. We discussed the issues another day. I am encouraged,
However Monday I must engage a lawyer unless this D is pulled. Wednesday id the deadline to answer.

Having to secure a Lawyer .
She said "I am tired of being pressured - you always pressure me not to do "girls Weekends, attend Bowling tournaments - but you go away like this! I''m not going to have it anymore!

I truth - I do believe that these things should be handled with POJA and not as non-negotiable (Independant Actions) In my opinion I do bring these plans up for discussion, but receive notice of her trips... no discussion. This seems to be a central hot button issue for Diane.

Have you confirmed that the EAs are over? Checked her electronics to confirm it?

What has Steve Harley advised you to do?

So if you retain a lawyer are you going to continue to follow Steve Harley and the Marriage Builders program?

You said she didn’t feel listened to by you. What have you done, besides putting the phone down, to make her feel heard?

Yes - Confirmed EAs are over..
Spent a great weekend away with some of her family. cleared up a lot.

Yes - I will continue to follow through consistently even if I have to retain a lawyer.
She is impressed with the change that intentional listening and undivided attention have made; and she is also far more attentive.
gotta run. will post in the morning.
Have to set another appointment with Steve.

Diane send this this morning:
I want a plan for the best day and time I want to retreive the rest of my belongings. I know you say all is safe however I will never, ever be moving back to that house soo many sad and bad memories. I know you don't want the divorce however I do, because I do not believe I can be the kind of wife you need. I want and need to get myself back to the person I once was happy and healthy living with you made me angry and on edge all the time. I need to come home from work to the same condition I left he house in and be at piece and feel like I am home to my sanctuary. I tried as long as I could and I even told both my counselors that I did not want to go thru another divorce however I am a strong woman and know I can take care of myself and my home I never needed a man in my life it took 10 years after loosing HB to decide to make a full commitment to you. When you lived in my home you started a long text message related to me putting up shelves to store your things so they were not strewn all over my garage and under my boat. When we moved to Place I thought it would be our forever home however it was never my home as you made it uncomfortable for me to be there setting my anxiety to an all time high. All I asked of you was for you to pick up after yourself and respect me and all I did to keep the home and yard a pleasant place to be. You tore my heart out the minute we left Florida you complained about the cost of the cottage, I guess you forgot it cost me just as much buying all the bridal party clothes including Gus and for Craigs family vacation. Your mom gave you 5 thousand dollars to pay for the wedding of which I didn't see a dime of. Then you stated you will never vacation in a brick and mortor place again. Now I like camping however what kind of vacation is it for me when I have to do all the cooking and clean up. I am a very smart resourceful woman and being called ignorant or stupid after marring you set me back to 30 years ago I stated then and I state it again NEVER AGAIN is a man going to speak to me like that. I tolerated all I could my health suffered. I didn't marry you for your money however we are in our golden years and pinching pennies seems fruitless I believe we cannot take it with us why not enjoy the fruits of our labor. On another Note I received all the counseling I am going to go thru Sorry you paid the money I asked you to get it when we were together because of your explosive behavior and the need to have total control over everything including my body. You pushed me to make one of two choices Suicide or walk away and take time to heal the broken heart and dreams. The constant threats of divorce, jail calling me a felon, whore, ignorant and stupid along with the total lack of care for my health pushed me to where we are today and I am never going back to that. I can't and won't have sex with you because its too painful and your I DON:T CARE attitude is not condusive to my well being. I have to move forward and so be it alone. I want out and I want to move on. I asked you several times to drop it I was too tired for the drama. I am a very loving, kind and patient woman with a heart of gold however I cannot be your momma you are very needy and I don't have the patience for it. You have never kept any of your promises nor paid up when you lost a bet I just don't trust things won't go back to your way or the highway. I am in my happy place alone and at my home without you invading my every space. Maybe we could still date and who knows with time what will happen I just need to be out and not have you constantly at my home. If you agree to the terms of the divorce my attorney has drawn up you could just do what needs to be done and not pay another attorney however I would want an appropriate settlement and a portion of my attorney and moving expenses reimbursed. I am truly sorry I, it was not my intention to hurt you however I can't be married to someone that does not have the same goals for a future that I do. I may still love you however I do not like a lot of what you stand for and your need for constant hugs, kisses its just too much for me to deal with it becomes an annoyance instead of a blessing. Please DON"T harass me at work

My response:
Diane,
I am at my weakest.
I am however 100% certain that I have the ability to cheerfully build our marriage to the place that we can thrive.

No, I don't have a timetable.

The sex thing is a real part of life. My love for you is paramount.

There is no denying that we love each other.

If neither of us is looking to date another, I don't understand the rush.

I am a little worried that you job stress may compromise our golden years. I have prepared well, and intend to provide well for my family, especially for you.

I have no problem with traditional hotel vacations. I did feel like you did not care about my preference. But we were Both, wete hurt terribly in previous relationships. We both threw elbwows when we should have been walking the dogs , talking, sharing ideas, so we could see one another's dreams...and make them come true.

I am happy with the woman you are now. With a little more tranquility as we court I believe that we will both rest better and feel better.

I have not struggled with this. It ideas and a pleasure to listen, be attentive, lay phone away. I do not have critical thoughts in my mind, so they will not come from my mouth.

I can't function much more right now.
I don't understand the lawyer talk. Please explain. With numbers.

I would really appreciate the opportunity to speak. I have thoroughly enjoyed your company these last months. 😊
Kind, smart, loving, honest, ...a little crabby in the morning...

Our skills are sharp and complimentary.

I am asking respectfully for the time to slowly build the relationship that we deserve. I am certain that we can do it. We have been, even with the perplexing set of problems that beset us this summer.

I remain your respectfull and deeply committed husband,
Michael

PS-
The counseling is not really traditional... it's more like coaching... I believe that it will quickly lead us in a self sustaining positive direction. I would appreciate it if you would either let me have a 1/2 hour to show you why I believe, or just call in for one session and hear it from the source.

I believe that you are worth everything. Adding in the families, our impact and example for the little ones, and Molly, Stella, Sophie, Gizmo, ...it is overwhelming ly clear to me.

__________________________________________
I am quite shattered. Canceled most work for this week. Doing a few things with family and close friends only. slept very little the last several
Mike:

My goodness, that was very hard to read. I'm sorry that you are going through this.

However, I am horrified to read your wife's list of complaints. Your previous posts have never described her sentiments accurately.

She has said:

You make her feel anxious and edgy all the time. That's a horrible way to feel, and nobody needs to live like this.

You create a messy state in the house, and leave it for her to come across when she arrives home. She has spoken to you about how unhappy this makes her feel and yet you continue to do it (or, at least, until recently). Now, you might not feel that untidiness is worth getting upset about, but the specifics of what she complains about irrelevant. You are sending a very clear message when you carry on as before - which is "I don't care about your feelings". Why should she stay married to someone that does not care about her feelings? Why be married at all?

You complained, after the fact, about the cost of the wedding/honeymoon, despite receiving a substantial sum from your mother. Complaining about the very start of your marriage; way to make a woman feel cherished.

You made her go camping for the honeymoon, stating that you will never vacation in a brick dwelling again. Never mind saying now that you have "no problem" with traditional vacations. That is not what you said at the time. Between how you treated the wedding costs and imposing a honeymoon without taking seriously her view that this was no vacation for her, you are lucky that she continued being married to you beyond that point.

You have called her ignorant and stupid - WTF?

You resist spending the money that you both obvious have. She wants to be with someone who doesn't mind spending in order to have a happy few final years.

You wouldn't pay for counselling when you were together but have paid for it now you are separated, without her agreement. Again, this is going about things in entirely the wrong way. Dr Harley does not agree with imposing his coaching on an unwilling spouse - and also, it comes across as too little, too late.

You have called her a felon and a whore - once again, what the actual F? I have to tell you that I NEVER use profanity on this forum, as Dr Harley does not want that here. Without it, however, I am lost for words with you.

You have demanded and had sex with her in ways that are emotionally or physically painful - or both - disregarding her health.

You have made promises (I presume about all the above) that you do not keep. In your wife's shoes, I would not believe the promises you are making now.

You demand frequent hugs and kisses when you know she is hurt and cannot give these willingly. With that and your demands for sex, I have to ask: How can you disregards someone's feelings of not wanting you - because you want them and that's what matters?

This is your third marriage heading for divorce, and yet, knowing how painful separation and divorce are, and having been given this chance relatively late in life, you have done all you could to destroy this marriage, based on her account.

And here is how your reply comes across to me. My interpretations are in red. I can only hope that your wife does not read your note the same way as I do.


I can hardly believe that you wrote what you did. You have not acknowledged a single complaint of hers. You have denied what she says happened. You are basically saying that she has no justification for feeling estranged from you, and for wanting out. You are dismissing what she tried to explain to you, and you are trying to blackmail her into staying.

None of this will do anything to build romantic love - in fact, it will destroy quite a few love bank units.

Thanks for the feedback.... Even if perhaps a little over exuberant.

I related her un-edited message. No - I didn't take her camping for honeymoon. Yes airfare, rooms, cars, boats, costs for her family exceeded the 5K by a wide margin.
We have been communicating very nicely and honestly for the last several months. No - I didn't say I would never stay in a brick and mortar vacation spot... I said it wasn't my first choice. We often traveled to Niagra falls, Vegas, and other vacation spots. More recently we did a nice trip with her family camping and canoeing, at her request. I very attentively facilitated, asking for her ideas, sharing mine, selecting solutions, POJA. . And when I discovered a recent romantic interest, I requested that she give our relationship a chance. She explained the situation was because she had thought we had no chance. She agreed to end it, and appears to be good to her word.

We have already POJA'd a number of the serious issues, and it is time to stay the course and stand the test of time and life's stress.

However I did't realize the preponderance of my note was inappropriate.

She has been extremely violent in the past, and did get counseling, much of which I paid for. She has a very high stress job, and does lose sleep and patience with it. I do everything I can to support her. Well in light of the complaint I should have completed an Emotional Needs questionaire, and focused on different needs. Instead I often did as she requested, building projects for her plant, on time and under budget. So now I am very intensional, very carefully neat, and I am enjoying the results. When we're together I rest well and she generally does as well.

We do spend a lot of time together. She is willing to plan or let me plan weekends, a night out, dinner with friends. We have not had an issue in months. Upon arriving at the wrong venue for a show we both blurted out: "I'm so sorry - I should have double checked the address".... The previous (rare but very damaging) incidents are way in the past. I have appologized. Made sure that nothing like that happens again, and asked what amends would look like...

So - I tried to post an update just recently...
Long story short:
She lost her high pay/high pressure position.
We both had some stressful issues.
But we do continue to be there for each other.
She was shocked and stressed with the job loss. I was able to assist in researching, and she was able to quickly secure a similar position. I was also able to get her covered on my health insurance. My idea, she didn't object.
We agreed that I would cover her legal fee, and stop the D.
Today I learned that D was apparently not stopped, and I found that a Default judgement was signed...?
No idea of the consequences....
So - rather than over react, and do something counter productive, I am here.

I reached out for an appointment with Steve H. Took another shower.

I apologize for the lack of updates recently. I lost internet connection and just got it back last night.
She does express that she is in a quandry. She also continues to make plans, and do things like freezing sweet corn together....

It would be great if you share Steve's advice after your session with him.

When did you agree to stop the divorce proceedings? Did anyone take action after the verbal agreement? Perhaps was already in motion and your verbal agreement came too late. If you both agree and present together to the court you could possibly get the judgement annulled.

No sleep last night.
Reached out to lawyer to access situation.
Have to work today.
Deep sadness.

Blackhawk - Thanks for responding.
Steve suggested asking W to be open to the idea of exploring the MB material. And attempting to demonstrate the program by being quite deliberate. I am observant, caring, and thoughtful. I have been carefully listening to her words. I then either demonstrate care, ask questions. I perform any tasks I can right away. It is noticed. She said she's afraid of backsliding over time.
Honestly - I enjoy the changes. I enjoy working with her, whether it is household chores, waxing the boat (hers), or just about anything. We have been doing a lot of recreational things together.
I'll add Steve's advice when I get an appointment.

What did the lawyer say?

Lawyer said retainer is 5K. due to several proceedural errors it judgement will be set aside. Due Moday...

In the meantime, W called and asked that we take her Mom out to the local Old Timer's Day festival. We did and everone had a nice time. We spend the night together as usual on weekends. Saturday we did some household chores very agreeably. She had a Bowling engagement Saturday evening and I headed home to mow. She ended up getting me to bowl as a substitude on her team. She's a Hall of Fame bowler, and everyone was struggling witha tough oil pattern. With her suggestions I was able to step up, eventually throwing a 259 game, well above my 169 average. Of courese I give her the credit. She's a talented coach.
Saturday evening we spoke at some length about the situation. Especially about our desires, owning up to past failures, what negative skills we inadvertantly learned in prior marriage that hurt us.
Sunday we enjoyed a leasurely morning. I did get to tell her that I was very reluctant to spend 5K for lawyers, especially since I love her, and for the past 3 months we have been doing very well in the face of very serios challenges. Long story short, she said she 'needs to think about it"....
So I am not sure if I'll see her later this evening, or about anything else...

I'm just sick about the whole situation. I've been trying to eat everything I can, and am still dropping weight. Waist down 3", 3 pounds heavier that when I graduated High School.

PS - Appointment with Steve in the morning.
I had typed a longer post a little while ago, but I don't see it?

With all the difficult situations this Summer, working closely with Diane, and both of us listening, and communicating with care I have fallen even more in love with her.