<BR>I haven't posted as Liz for a while, but the Pearl of Great Price learned a lesson today that Liz and Pearl want to share.<P>I have been waiting for my husband to say certain things about his affair before I would forgive him. He had apologized when he confessed, he has changed jobs, and we are in counseling. <P>But I had some conditions to be met before I would forgive him. I wanted to see tears of remorse. I wanted to hear that he regretted what he had done and that it was the biggest mistake of his life.<P>As we left church together today, I had the clear impression that God wanted me to tell him that I had forgiven him. "But Lord, He hasn't cried enough yet. But Lord, he hasn't said it was a terrible mistake. He hasn't shown enough remorse."<P>I know. DO IT.<P>When we got home, I asked him to sit down in our bedroom and took him by the hand. "I haven't been ready to say this yet, because I had conditions and hoops for you. Now I want to put this away. I forgive you."<P>Then---the tears flowed like crazy and he buried his face in my neck. We held each other for a couple minutes. Then he said, "Thank you." And he went into the bathroom to blow his nose.<P>Aren't I glad I sometimes listen to those little prompts from above?<P>Love to all, <P>Liz Smith<BR>POGP<P>------------------<BR>When you go through deep waters and great trouble, I will be with you. Isaiah 43:2<P><BR>

Liz, your story brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for posting this story.<P>I have often talked about whether or not I should tell my husband I've forgiven him, and many say that I shouldn't tell him this until he leaves the slug (with whom he is living). Some say it would be demeaning for me to do so.<P>I think that (as Michele Weiner-Davis has said in one of her online articles at <A HREF="http://www.divorcebusting.com)" TARGET=_blank>http://www.divorcebusting.com)</A> forgiveness is a gift that we give to ourselves. We can offer this gift to those who have wronged us when it is time for each of us to do so. I'd love to be able to tell my husband that I forgive him ... I don't know that he's willing to listen, or even if he's willing to be forgiven. Perhaps, as a friend suggested to me today, he believes what he has done is unforgiveable. I've heard from people in recovery from infidelity that the person who has betrayed the marriage often continues the behavior because of this belief.<P>Liz, you've given yourself, your husband, and all of us here a great gift. I hope that we can all accept it gracefully and gratefully.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<BR>

Oh, Liz, you made the tears flow for me, too.<P>NOW you have EARNED the title "PEARL OF GREAT PRICE"....<P>Wonderful!!!!!<P>Roll Me Away

Liz, wonderful sunday!!!!!!!!!! <BR>We forgive for ourselves, but the wonderful love that encompasses us when we do so surely has an effect on all.

Liz<BR>I am still crying as I write this.... I am so happy for you!! Thank you for posting your story. It truly touched my heart. I wish you and your husband all the best and hope that others will learn by your example.<BR>Blessed be!<BR>Moonbeam<P>------------------<BR>MAY WE ALL FIND PEACE, LOVE AND COMPASSION IN OUR WORLD(:

terri - I think you are right that your h. may not be ready to hear that he has been forgiven. I know in our situation (it has been three months since the confession and his moving out for a while and then back in) if I had tried to say that I forgave him before he was ready to receive forgiveness, he would have been sarcastic and said something like "How big of you". Also, before yesterday, I don't think I could have really meant it. I know there will be a temptation for me to go back to some of the anger and hurt, but somehow, having that experience to look back on seems to make the forgiving more 'real'. <P>Roll Me Away - you have been around here a while, so you know the ups and downs I have gone through in order to get to this point. Thanks for the "Pearl" comment! I just prayed for you and your h.<P>cl - You are so right that this experience of forgiving was really a gift from God to me..it just happens to benefit my h., my kids and our marriage as well. To think that I almost refused to say what God wanted me to say. He KNEW that the tears would follow the forgiving, yet I would have gone on indefinitely waiting for my h. to act remorseful FIRST.<P>moonbeam - thanks. I do really hope that my sharing this very private joy will help encourage my dear friends here.<P>Liz/POGP<P>------------------<BR>When you go through deep waters and great trouble, I will be with you. Isaiah 43:2<P><BR>

Please, let's clarify something. For years I heard that we are always supposed to forgive everyone for everything, but what is forgiveness?<P>I think we often confuse two distinct concepts: 1. dealing with our own pain/bitterness. 2. forgiving the other person and restoring the relationship.<P>The first is tough enough and we must do it strictly for our own peace. But it is the second definition that is Biblical forgiveness. The other person must acknowledge wrong (even if not remorseful, I don't know if I'll ever see that in my h; he feels more for what he did to the OW) and seek a restoration of the relationship. So where the h is still out there wronging you, you can't forgive him this way; you cannot restore him until he stops the sin. All you can do is deal with your own feelings, but this should not be told to him; you should NOT tell him you forgive him.<P>Unfortunately, I have had much experience with forgiveness. As a teen I tried to forgive my stepfather for the sexual and other abuse, but there was no restoring the relationship; he wanted to resume where he left off. I finally had to completelly sever all communication and I know I did the right thing. I'm glad today he is nowhere near my 2 kids, as I know from my brothers he is still a pedophile. Dealing with my own feelings and becoming a whole person from that point was a different thing all together. But there is no forgiving him, he has never acknowledged any wrong! All I know is that one day he will have to answer for his crimes, even if not in this life. I have even prayed for his salvation.

Liz,<BR>I know where you are coming from. I forgave my W after each affair. She still doesn't understand that what I am saying is real and comes from God because my flesh only wants revenge. She thinks I am insincere because she is insincere. Yet, I know that He is working on her by making changes in me. I don't fault her for her being duped by Satan's lies. I love her because she is God's gift to me in spite of the great amount of pain that she has caused and continues to cause. I remamber when I felt as she does now. But He moved on me to let me know that He was always and will always be there when I am to stupid to know what to do.<P>He continually reaffirms me now that I am often at the to stupid state.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

schizzo- I would NEVER presume to tell anyone when they should forgive. I don't even agree that it is always time to offer forgiveness. Everything has its proper time. As I posted before (I am also Liz Smith) offering forgiveness when it is the wrong time can just infuriate the other person. I am not in your situation, so I would never say "you have to forgive". I just posted our story because many of my pals here know the bumpy road I traveled to get to this point. It was supposed to be an encouraging word, not a lecture...Sorry if I offended you in some way--I've never read your posts before and certainly don't intend to tell other people what they should do, unless they say "Hey, I need advice".<P>professorg - I'm with you, sometimes 'stupid' is a great place to be, as long as we listen to God for wisdom! Have a great day, Rob.<P>------------------<BR><BR>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR>

Liz,<P>Your story is inspiring. I am not there yet.<BR>Completely ready to forgive but I know I should and must do so. And in church yesterday I felt God saying to me that while I am working on forgiveness I must also forgive the OP. That we are all his children. This made me cry, it is so difficult and I want to do the right thing. It has only been a short time for me learning all this and knowing Forgiveness is right I will continue to pray so when I do,it will come completely from my heart and soul. Thank you again, with the coming Holidays we all could use more examples of the ways of Jesus and strive to be more like him. However, we are human. <BR>God Bless you and your family

Liz,<P>I am very happy for you and your H. I know of no other healing words than those you said to him...<P>I read this when you first posted, and thought, "yes, I remember when I first heard those words from my H"... but it's what happened afterward that made me NOT respond to your post. Very selfish of me!!<P>Some of the later responses to your post, mostly Scizzo and professorg, state my fears in this type of situation. My H <B>said</B> he forgave me, only to turn right around and act totally <B>non</B>forgiving. The words mean little without the action. <P>I cried in my H's arms and even posted about it here when he said it. It meant the world to me - everything! My dearest POGP (I love that name), hide that moment in your shell with you and remember what those words meant to both of you the next time the green-eyed monstor rears her ugly head (and she will, it's human nature, unfortunately)... <P>You are a wonderful person with a bright marital future ahead of you, I think. I see many blessings in your path... <P>Have a lovely week!!<P>------------------<BR>Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

Sheryl,<BR>God does NOT give you the spirit of fear. Your fear is found in the lie that Satan tells us all. Satan has been trying really hard to get me to be unforgiving of my W by having her to continue treating me as though I don't matter. God is ALWAYS there. I feel your pain. It is when you are weak when you become strong in the Lord. You have to STOP relying on YOU; rely on GOD, the source of all your strength. <P>Let Him guide your steps down the path He has chosen for you. It is a very narrow path but you can never go wrong in doing as He says. I know this sounds stupid or insane but once you listen to Him it makes perfect sense. He will give you PEACE UNSPEAKABLE FULL OF GLORY.<P>To God be all the glory, honor, and praise!!!<P>MONDO HUG!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Sheryl, I am so glad you've posted, I was afraid I'd have to adjust to MB without NB and that would be sad! I know that there will come times when I am tempted to dig up the crap from the past, but I will 'hide that moment in my shell' to remind me that I promised to forgive. <P>We know that forgetting completely is impossible, and I don't even believe that forgetting would be a good thing...it is time to remember the lesson and forget the pain. <P>Thanks for sticking around. Thanks, too, for your 'prediction' about a happy marital future. <P>We plug on with counseling and heartfelt talks. Sometimes it's painful. Last sesson my h. said "I know it hurts you when I say this, but my biggest motivation to make this work is loving my kids." That hurts, but the counselor pointed out that he also said "I want us to have a happy marriage and a happy home". To me, that would mean that I become the love of his life and replace her as 'the special one'. Time will tell.<P>Rob - Have a good Monday, thanks for posting again.<P>------------------<BR><BR>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR>

Liz,<BR> I think I am where you were at a few weeks ago. I keep thinking "how can I forgive something that he doesn't even see as all that bad". He says he is sorry he hurt me and our relationship but everything else in the affair was good. It felt good for him and so it couldn't be all that bad. <BR> I spent this weekend with him without the kids and it was nice but some of the things that he said and did still hurt me so much. Forgiveness is hard when the hurt is still there. He says he still loves her(I didn't expect him not to at this point), and he is not sure he even wants those feelings to go away. It hurt because he admitted that the love he carries for her causes a conflict in him that keeps him from being loving to me. How can he say he wants to make our marriage work but still want to hold on to something that is putting a rift in our relationship? This is major issue for me in forgiving him, and maybe I am just being selfish. I don't know. You have given me a lot to think of. Thank-you for sharing.<BR><P>------------------<BR>I am holding my heart out to you and ask only that you receive it and give me yours in return.<BR>Nicole

Nicole, If my h. hadn't confessed and said he was sorry for hurting me, I don't think I would have been at the place to offer forgiveness. <P>Also, I think there is am important distinction between "I am sorry I hurt you", which is the first apology I received, and "I am sorry I betrayed you and violated our marriage vows". <P>This first "apology" sounds backwards to me...I am sorry you are reacting badly to something I did. Whereas the second apology actually involved taking responsibility for doing wrong. I think waiting till the offender has some notion of what they have done is critical. Sometimes the fog is too thick for them to really feel sorry.<P>I still hope that someday he will regret the affair, but we have both noted that our marriage is now more 'real' and intimate than ever before.<P>Perhaps I should send her a thank you note? NOT!<P>grins,<BR>Liz/POGP<P>------------------<BR><BR>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR>

Thank-you,<BR> Again you have given me something to think about. My husband is at the first stage still and I keep hoping he will get to the second stage of actually seeing the wrong in wnat he did. I do believe that forgiveness will be easier at that stage, I keep thinking"is there something I can do or say that will bring him there" an I really don't think so. So I just try to carry on with patient love and hope he will come around soon.<P>------------------<BR>I am holding my heart out to you and ask only that you receive it and give me yours in return.<BR>Nicole

Liz/POGP,<P>May I offer something to think about. You do not want to replace the OW in your H's heart. You want to BECOME part of his heart. The OW in someways doesn't matter. Let me explain what I am sure is a very strange statement. <P>Many years ago I had a person working for me who was just exceptional in every facet. This person decided to change jobs and physical location to further his career. I started looking for a replacement and I could not find anyone who could replace that person. One day I realized I was doing this all wrong. I needed to find somebody who was really good at what they did. And if what they did was completely different from the original employee that was fine. I redefined the job, because the vacant job was really created by the employee themself. They did what they did best and the job became them. The new employee must do the same thing. They could not really be compared.<P>I indeed found such a person and when they moved on they were the exceptional employee.<P>What does this have to do with you and the OW. Just as you never forget old friends, high school classmates and so forth your H will never forget the OW nor will you. However, the place the OW held in your H's mind and heart does not need to be replaced. You do not want to be her. You want to create new places in your H's mind and heart.<P>If you give him your gifts (and you have started with forgiving), you create new places and feelings. The more he comes to love you the more he will regret the affair. (The old saying " The best revenge is a life well lived.")<P>Does this make any sense to you? What I guess I am saying is give what you want, when you want to and how you want to and he will respond and start to do the same. In essence this is the Harley method of meeting needs. But do not play the game of wanting to do something but waiting until he meets certain criteria before doing it. Your post here demonstrates how important it is to do the right thing, because you do not know how he will redefine the marriage once you "hire" him for the job. Just trust that if you have love to give and he wants to receive it (ie stay in the marriage) then the marriage will evolve in ways you may not expect.<P>I hope I have given you something to think about. This is not about the OW any more. It is about you and your H, creating the marriage that you both want. The past should only be considered enlight of what the events can teach you about making the future better. <P>I know this is not easy but your H appears to want to make this work, but he is probably more fearful than you. In fact I am sure he is very afraid of you: he has much guilt to deal with and is protecting himself. By your forgiving, he could let down some of the walls of protection. I have rambled long enough. Make a new marriage don't rebuild the old one.<P>God Bless You and Your Family

Liz - Pearl - That's so great. I cried when I read your story of forgiving your H. Truly you are a Pearl of Great Price. It sounds like you've really gotten your life back now. Regards, blessings, and all my best for you and your H's new life together,<P>--Wex

LizPearl,<P>Thanks for bringing it to my attention. <P>I read it earlier today and it brought a smile to my face. It did again just now.<P>So glad that you are in a better place.<P>Know that your always in my prayers. I too appreciate <B>your</B> advise.<P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<BR>

just learning- wow, thanks, I am going to print that post to look at more later. Sometimes I print posts that really speak to me and keep them in my purse or backpack to mull over when I am waiting for my kids or for my classes to begin. You are so right--I don't want her place, I want something different, better, and more permanent than that!<P>wex and sam--you both know I value your posts so much, I am glad I could share a little of my joy today...<P>------------------<BR><BR>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR>