Hi HPK,
I wanted to respond to your post to me in the other thread, but didn't want to take over.
It's darn near impossible to get upset with you for assuming I'll burn in hell for my beliefs (or lack thereof) when you are nothing but kind and generous to me. Thank you.

I had a very civil and relatively respectful conversation with some Christians about heaven and hell a couple weeks ago. I say relatively respectful because there is just something really unnerving about talking to someone who thinks you will go to a horrible, burning hell in the afterlife for not sharing the same beliefs.
These two guys explained to me that they believed that anyone who did not believe in God would go to hell...not because God would send them there (being wholly compassionate and forgiving), but because the person chose that path. What irks me is that I can be a wonderfully kind person. I can be a great friend, daughter, mother, wife, worker...generous, intelligent, useful, enlightening, honest....I can be a really great person, but a man who believes in God, but cheats on his wife, steals, abuses his children, hates, murders, etc....as long as he believes in God, you'll believe he's better off in the afterlife than I am. The response from these friends was that if he does bad things like that, he doesn't REALLY believe in God and will go to hell. But, if HE believes that he is good for believing in God...basically, it's these independent thought processes and the fact that I don't think there is someone out there who really determines whose been naughty and whose been nice, that brings me to the conclusion that this whole heaven and hell idea is just a cute explanation/motivation similar to mythology.
When I told these friends that I need some kind of proof, they told me I'd never get proof...I just had to believe. There may come a day when I have so little control over my life and become so horribly depressed that I need an external explanation and form of support. It may get to the point that I cannot carry the weight of the world on my shoulders and will believe in anything that makes me feel better. If and when that time comes, you may see me pray...you may see me reach out to these things that cannot be proven. But, I've already faced some pretty terrible times without the aid of religion.
Since I was a small child, I did not believe in God...my family never taught me religion, I only went to church for holidays...actually, I was Jewish and celebrated only Jewish holidays until I was about 8. My childhood was NOT easy. I never got to be a carefree child. I never got to be a carefree teenager. Right now is the most carefree I've been in my life and I'm planning a wedding! I got through some really horrible times by myself...thought of suicide, wished I'd never been born, curled up into the tightest little ball of a human being and cried alone. I grew up never knowing that there might be a God that could take the pain away...I figured out how to do it myself (and that took a loooong time, sadly). I became a great saxophonist and put all of my pain and energy into that. When that was taken away from me in college, I had to relearn how to get rid of the pain and rebuild a healthy Smile...I still didn't believe in God. I did, however, for a short time believe in angels. My uncle died around that time and I had been very close to him for the few years I knew him (my mom was adopted and found her family about 11 years ago). I felt like he gave me strength after his death when I really needed it. I felt like he was watching over me and helping me get to the next day with fewer tears and a little less pain.

I think that people's strong belief that someone like me will go to hell is sad...it must be difficult to see past the tip of your beliefs and truly appreciate someone who you think is a lost cause. I find that very sad. Everytime you find something to admire about me, your religious logic kicks in and all you can do is pity me and wish I believed so I wouldn't burn in hell. Please don't pity me. I'm a strong, happy person...I've earned that...I've fought for that. I am stronger, happier, and healthier than so many people who do believe in God, so please don't pity me.
If out of the goodness of your heart you want to pray for me and my happiness, I will never turn that down...those are warm, generous thoughts that I'd never reject. But, please realize that I am happy with my choice to expect proof. I know I'm not going to burn in some hell somewhere. I don't know what will happen, but I will not be penalized for not believing in Christianity. We all make mistakes in life, but I do not consider this choice to be a potential mistake. I appreciate the internal strength I have arrived at via my choices. I appreciate the freedom to be open-minded and respectful of other people's beliefs. I appreciate the ability to look at everyone around me as unique people that can be happy regardless of their religious beliefs and who won't be penalized for not adhering to the rules of the Bible (in its many interpretations).
So please don't pity me. I'm very happy. I'll face more challenges. I'll cry more, I'll hurt more, I might even become depressed, again. But, I'm strong and will pull myself out of the funk. You don't have to worry about me...I'll find happiness in the end. There are so many people I know that believe in God whom I don't think will necessarily be happy in the end...people who will drown in face of those challenges...people who will just slip away. But, I won't. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I'll slip away from these forums eventually and you'll forget all about me. You won't miss me in your eternity.

As for the wedding? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I haven't got much help from those mothers who were so excited. I haven't even got a rough list of names from 5x's Mom and don't know how many people to plan on. The location holds more than I'd ever invite, so that makes this uncertainty easier, but I'm about ready for some help from them. I've researched a lot and put together a really nice web site. I've got my part of the wedding party finalized. And I've got nonstop ideas that are probably driving 5x quietly nutty by this point (he's been really great <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).
HPK, thanks so much for caring. I hope this lengthy post begins to explain where I'm coming from.
Peace.
Respectfully,
Smile

Smile - I do care. I care about all the hurting ones posting here. I do have a strong sense of right and wrong and I bleed just like everyone else. I don't express myself in print like I would in person. In law enforcement we see so many hurtful things that people do to each other. As a police chaplain and a minister-in-training I see the other side of situations after the paperwork and redtape is done. I'm sorry for the pain you have experienced in this life. You have recovered remarkably well. You are correct that many Christians, or those professing to be Christians, don't handle their problems in near the responsible way you have. You are to be admired and you are precious in Jesus's eyes.

Smile - my beliefs, too, have been formed by a dysfunctional past and they have been strengthened by my current trauma. My Christianity is based not on a list of do's and don't's, but on a relationship. Jesus stated that He did not come into the world to nullify the Law of Moses, but to make it alive. He offered this message of forgiveness and reconciliation to both Jew and Gentile. Too many folks see Christianity as just another religion, but the Biblical mode of Christianity is based upon a relationship with a living, breathing, RISEN Savior. Yes, it requires faith to believe in this Messiah. Smile, He likely will not come down here and tap you on the shoulder and say "Here I am, now believe!" He could, because he is God and I will not put Him in a box like so many "religions" do. Yet, I know He is real, Smile. I have seen some physical manifestations of His healing and delivering power, but my faith is not based upon what I see. I have seen people healed miraculously, I have literally seen limbs grow, I have observed people be set free from demonic possession, but more importantly I have seen people accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. I have been blessed to lead many to that salvation. But, Smile, even with all that, I base my salvation upon Jesus only - not the signs and wonders. I, too, questioned His existence at one time. All people do, especially when they are being abused and rejected. There is nothing wrong with that so don't feel guilty about it.

Smile, if someone finds the body I will publicly renounce my faith and go back to my old way of life. If someone can produce Jesus's body I will totally reject my belief system. But they can't produce the body, because it's no longer in the tomb. He died and rose again on that 3rd day. Smile, the tomb is empty. No other religious figure can claim that! I am very convinced that the concept of "religion" has led more people to hell than any other belief system. Why? - because cults and religious systems are based upon good works or centered around a person that falsely claims deity. That is why secular humanism is in fact a religion - their deity is man himself.

Smile - I can only share with you what I know to be reality. Your perception of religion is your reality and I respect that. There was a time in my life when I questioned religious things, too. I, too, was puzzled and confused when it came to religious things. It was only when I discovered the reality of Jesus Christ that I was able to separate religion from Biblical Christianity. Smile, the name over the church door doesn't mean squat, neither does God need or is impressed by our good works. What matters, and is the heart of the matter, is this - Who is this Jesus? Is He truly the Messiah and Savior as He claimed? Can He actually heal my broken heart, repair my marriage, forgive me, and bring me peace? Those questions I struggled with years ago have been answered for me (well, the marriage one is still a work in progress). I will continue to pray for you Smile, and the other Mbers, not in a judgemental way but with compassion. Just what Jesus is doing! God bless and thanks for letting me have this long post. You are a neat lady!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I, too, questioned His existence at one time. All people do, especially when they are being abused and rejected. There is nothing wrong with that so don't feel guilty about it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi HPK...but, that's why I told you all of that. It wasn't BECAUSE I was abused that I doubted the existence of God or some higher being. I really wasn't exposed to religion. The Bible was a storybook. The story of Adam and Eve to me was on the same tier as stories of unicorns and fairies. I believed in Jesus on a similar tier as Greek mythology. Only, as a child, mythology was far more interesting.
I didn't shun God because he allowed me to feel such horrible pain...I just never associated my pain with him. He wasn't a being that could look down at me and take the pain away...only the people around me and myself could do that.
It's actually really interesting when I look back at my childhood. I went through phases where I pretended that certain people could see me at all times...watching over me, feeling my joy, feeling my pain. Usually, those were real, living people that I knew. After my grandmother died (I was about 13 years old), I then thought she could see me, too. But, I've never felt like there was a God watching over me, making sure I didn't do anything wrong, praising me for what I did right, and comforting me when I felt lonely. I created my own guardians.
I just didn't have the exposure and by the time I did start to understand what other people believed, it just sounded silly to me. So surreal and intangible. Stories from the Bible sounded just as unreal as the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. The biggest difference I see is that there is SOME physical evidence of biblical stories and it was compiled by many people as opposed to one author.
Having studied psychology during the time I was starting to get more exposure to religion surely had an impact on me, too. I studied how people's brains functioned. We quite literally fill in the gaps of what we see and believe. From a therapuetical standpoint, I studied how people filled in those gaps with belief systems. It's all very intriguing and acceptable...but, not everyone believes the same things. I'm perfectly comfortable with that, but one people start telling me I'm going to hell for what I believe in, I'm rattled to the point of thinking their beliefs are not okay. I honestly believe that religion is a type of human defense mechanism to explain away the unexplainable and receive the emotional support necessary to thrive. Having gone through the most difficult times of my life so far without any religion, I do not rely on it. I do not really understand it. I do not need it. I think there are very good guidelines to live happily and healthy to be learned through religion, but I think that people abuse it. I think people use it as a crutch. I think people use it as an excuse. I think people lose sight of the big picture. I'm not saying everyone is like this or that having faith is a bad thing...it is usually very good and healthy. But, I don't think it is necessary. Having one universal religion would be blinding and having hundreds and thousands of religions causes incredible conflict.
I'd like to say more, but have to go right now.
Smile

Smile - I appreciate your input on this subject. Each person has a God-created void in their heart that can only be placated when they choose to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Many folks never understand this longing until they hear the Gospel message and realize their need for salvation. For some, it's when they are laying in bed at night wondering who they are and why they are here. For some, it's when they receive the news that the cancer is ravaging their body and death is a sure thing. For some, it's when their spouse abuses them or commits adultery. Others face this issue when they are on a battlefield, out of ammunition, and the enemy is closing in.

Smile - Jesus loves you and offered His life for you. 2,000 years ago, as He hung on that cross, he saw your face, my face, the faces of all civilization. He could have called upon the Father to get Him down from that cross. Instead He chose not His will but the will of His Father. He offered the Supreme Sacrifice, Himself, in order that when Smile's day came that she realized she could no longer cope with this world's hurt she would know the way to eternal life. Smile - that day will eventually come for you, as it does for everyone. When that day comes remember the words you have seen here. Psychology can be a fine diagnostic tool for your soulish realm (mind, will, emotions, intellect) but only Jesus can set you free in your spirit as well as bring total fulfillment in your soulish areas.

Smile - once again, I compliment you for your openness and willingness to share your story. Jesus has a special place in His heart for you.