I'm going to try and keep this short & simple. Been married for 5 yrs, with him for a total of 9. Young when I got married, had doubts which I thought were normal, since then have felt there was something missing. DOn't get me wrong, he's not a horrible H. He's a great guy, got a good heart, good career, but has trouble putting me first. Jumps if his friends ask him to do stuff, has to think about it if I ask him. So guaranteed at least twice a year I bring up what I feel we need to work on, be it scheduling time together, taking up a hobby together, etc, He tells me he sees nothing wrong, makes a half hearted attempt, then goes back to being his usual couch potato self. In the past year I've made an attempt to go out more with my friends rather than sit at home (H is in school & is either doing homeowrk, at school or watching TV). I think this has been good for me, but I feel bad because H was my best friend for the longest time..I would rather do stuff with him. Anyway, I've about reached my breaking point, all my patience is used up. I'm not even mad at him I just think that maybe we weren't a good match to begin with. Then I go and fall in love with one of my friends. I'll be the first to admit that I started spending so much time with him because H was either not around or didn't want to do stuff. But as time has gone on, we are so great together. Sure we each have our flaws, but seems like all the important stuff is there, and we have really taken time and gotten to know each other. He's sweet, we have similar personalities, similar interests. He's what I wanted in a relationship, but thought I'd be able to live with what my H had to offer. Now I'm not saying that things would work out with me & the OM if I left my H, but he gives me hope that the kind of guy I hoped to find is really out there. How long do I try with my H before I throw in the towel??

hi mschf, you say your h was your best friend? Then talk to him!! Let him know how you feel abou the marriage. A couple times a yr is not enough. Have you read the rule of honesty on this site? Have you read the Policy of Joint agreement?<BR>I am assuming from the tone that you are not sexually involved with the OM? This is an emotional affair? <BR>You owe it to yourself and your marriage to quit seeing this OM, focus fully on the marriage. You cannot give your full heart to the marriage while you are involved with another, be it sexual or not! I feel that people sell themselves short sometimes by not working on the tough issues in life. <BR>I would recommend counseling to help you thru these times. I am not a betrayer, so am not the best person to answer, but please try to focus on your marriage, get control of this before it leads you away.<BR>His needs/Her needs is a good book. I also rec some of the books by Michele Weiner-Davis. There are some great marriage communication books that might help you and H understand eachother better. John Grey has written a few (men are from mars). Start talking!!!

Thanks for the feedback CL.<BR>Let me clarify a few things. When I say it comes up a couple times a year, I'm referring to the fights we end up having because he gets tired of me trying to fix something he doesn't think is broken. So I do try and tell him more regularly what I need, and at the time it seems like he gets it, I get my hopes up, and then nothing changes. The last argument we had, about a month ago, I brought up counseling and he said to go ahead but he would never even consider going. What has gotten his attention is that I told him I had feelings for this other guy, and I agree with your viewpoint, while I have not cut off all communication with him, I have stopped seeing him. ANyway, H is now trying harder than I have ever seen him, but now I'm having trouble trying because I've been let down so many times. But I will continue to give it a shot, just don't know at what point does one say Enough is enough.

Mschf-Have to say that if you really want to work this out you will find a way, just the same as your H. Maybe if you told him where you were headed he would think twice about the position you two are in. I know that it's hard to open up communication but he needs to know just how seriously he's not meeting your needs. Obviously he's not taking it seriously enough or you wouldn't be feeling the way you do. <BR>About this OM, what needs does he truly meet in you? Or is it just the need for something different than a couch potato? I would truly try to examine all your emotions and if you truly want to make it work tell your H. If he really wants to make this marriage work he needs an eye opener before things get too painful for both of you! God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P><BR>

mschif,<BR>Your H sounds EXACTLY like I used to be, that is USED to be. Bout twice a year for about the last 15 years we would have 'the talk' She would say she felt neglected emotionally that I needed to show her more affection, romance, etc. She said she NEEDED that stuff. My standard reply was that I wasn't raised in a house that showed much affection, that I was a good provider and faithful hubby, but I would try harder. Which I would do for a short while. <BR>After 15 years of sliding down the rope she said enough was enough and let go of the hope she was hanging onto waiting for some change from me. Well she didn't fall far before she found her affection and romance with internet scum. She was dying of thirst so she drank from a mudhole. We are 2 years into recovery now and the pain for me is still tremendous. Don't really know where I am going with this except that your H should be reading this not you. What I learned was that women really are wired differently and have very very different emotional NEEDS. I was a fool for not listening and now we both will pay for this the rest of our lives. My life really loved me then and loves me know but I really think she felt she had no choice, she was truly dying inside and I just wouldn't or couldn't give her what she NEEDED. She has changed and I have changed but the wounds we both have will be a very very long time healing.

Please read, starting on Page 52, from <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"</A> by Dr. Willard Harley!!!<P>It's the story of Kevin and Lee! You are in the role of Kevin as the "potential" wayward spouse...<P>Read it! Read it! Read it!<P>You've got to break contact with OM <B>right now!</B> The pain that will attack you... is going to be far greater than for your H! Give your mental health a chance to <B>not</B> go into the toilet bowl!<P>Please read the book! <P>I'm praying for strength and resolve for you... <P>Jim<BR>------------------<BR>I can dare myself... I'll put a pebble in my shoe...<BR>I can walk... I can walk! I shall call the pebble Dare...<BR>Dare shall be carried... And when we both have had enough<BR>I will take him from my shoe, singing... "Meet your new road!"...<BR>Finally glad... Finally glad... That you are here... By my side...

I can't believe what a great site this is..so much info, so much open feedback.<BR>I guess my big question is to myself, whether I really want to keep getting my hopes up, thinking we can change, but still end up feeling like something is missing. I'm young, we have no kids, but I'm approaching the age where we're starting to think about starting a family, but I have major doubts about how we'd be as parents. I want to be a partner not a "wife". People tell me he'll change when we have kids, but to me that's a risk I don't want to take. I guess I'm looking for someone who can put someone else's needs first. I am not saying my H is mean or abusive, but I can't shake the feeling there's something better out there. Last time we had a discussion he got mad, saying I've been complaing bout the same issues for 6 yrs. Hello? Then why are you not trying to help me resolve them? I truly believe in my heart that he loves me, but I don't even know if I want to try anymore. Especially since this OM has the qualities I like in my H, and the qualities I wish my H had. Just proves what I'm looking for is out there. No, I am not saying I want to leave my husband for OM, but it gives me hope guys like that exists, affectionate, caring, doesn't think he's God. If my H changes I want it to be because he wants to, not because I want him to, ya know? Otherwise I will always wonder if he's taking me out to dinner because he wants to appease me or does he really want to spend the time with me? <BR>Sometimes I think it would be easier to call it quits and start over. My heart is tired.

I tried to think of a way to explain my opinion without being too offensive, but I had trouble.<P>I tried sarcasm, but I sounded like a jerk.<P>I tried sounding understanding and reconciliatory, but I ended up advising you to leave your husband.<P>I tried supporting the MB principles and encouraging you to work on your marriage, but I sounded trite.<P>So, I decided to honestly tell you what I have seen happen to a few girls that I know who started out with similar questions. It turned out sounding arrogant, maybe it'll help, and maybe it won't. I'll use one actual factual case because it is typical:<P>My friend "Anna", which is what I will call her for reasons of consistency, started out with the same questions. Her husband was a really nice guy. He had put himself through school while they were married. He then put her through school. They have two lovely girls. The husband had a really good job earning just shy of 6 figures. Everything looked perfect.<P>But something wasn't perfect. Anna thought something was missing. She found she couldn't change her husband to suit her purposes. He had a nasty habit of continuing to be himself. He just wasn't willing to do enough for her. Don't get me wrong, he was a great guy and I am still best friends with him to this day, but maybe he just wasn't right for Anna. Of course, they had married young, so Anna had no idea how good she had it, having gotten lucky first try.<P>So Anna started seeing someone she met at work. At first he seemed perfect. He was emotionally attentive and supportive. They had common interests (work). She felt more his equal. They fell in love. Ann started to see her problems as mostly derived from her marriage. How could they not be? She felt so wonderful about her new relationship.<P>Things went from bad to worse at home. Anna finally kicked her husband out.<P>But now that she was single, where did her new man go? The weekends she was free from the kids, he was golfing with his friends. It seems like he was only ever available for sex. And even that was less because her now ex husband was no longer around to look after the kids whenever she wanted to sneak out of the house for a quickie. Damn. And he had no interest in her kids at all. A poke in the hot tub with Anna maybe. But "take the kids to the zoo? Are you crazy? I have a tee-time!"<P>The husband decided enough was enough. He filed for divorce. Anna put it off as long as possible, but she could not delay it any further. She had to decide. It was clear by now even to her that she had screwed up pretty good. She begged for another chance.<P>But what do you know? After two years of this, her husband wanted nothing to do with her. To complicate things he was seeing someone else.<P>I have seen at least 4 women whom were good friends of mine make similar mistakes. 3 had kids, 1 did not. In either case I have learned a few lessons by observation:<P>- Never burn the bridge that leads back home.<BR>- Grief takes two years. After that you may as well be dead to them. It is certainly too late to change your mind.<BR>- The grass is always greener on the other side, but you still have to mow it.<BR>- The fact that you don't know what you want does not necessarily imply that it is out there.<BR>- If you are unhappy, change yourself. Don't try to change others. It is not their fault you are unhappy. Nor is it their problem.<P>In your particular case I would say your friend is a much bigger jerk than your husband. He is interfering in your marriage and in your own thought process for his own purposes. I think you will do yourself a lot of damage finding that out. You have to look after yourself better than that.<P>Life is not for regret, nor for envy, nor for dreaming. It's for making the most of ourselves and the time we have with our loved ones.<BR>

mschif,<P>You are having an affair emotional if not physical. You judgement about you marriage is at best clouded. Get out of the affair and then take a look at yourself, then you H, and finally your marriage. <P>Nonplused gave you some excellent advice; take it. You want your H to change, but then you say you don't want him to do it for you. Who should he change for? THe reality he doesn't need to change, perhaps if you talked to him instead of nagging him he would understand your needs better. <P>If you two do discuss needs, don't be surprised to find out that you haven't been meeting his. It is very unlikely that you have since you are in this affair. Oh! and don't even think about having kids, your H maybe ready but it is clear you are not. This wondering if there is someone better out there is a sure sign of a shortage of maturity. There are 6 billion people on this planet, there is probably someone out there who meets your current needs better than H, however, none of them have stood up before God, family, and community and vowed to love, honor, and protect you for the rest of their lives. It sounds like you have a good man. He will change and mature as will you.<P>Finally, if there is to be any hope for your marriage, you will have to be honest about what you have been up to. From your point of view you have nothing to lose: only a marriage and you are writing that off without really doing the hard work. Facing up to what you have been doing and feeling about OM and your H will be tough, but your H may surprise you. <P>I know I sound harsh, but I like the others who have posted realize the effects of "the grass is greener" syndrome. Do both of you a favor and talk with your H and be honest with him.<P>God Bless You and Your H

Listen to ALL the advice given before mine. My situation stinks. Read mt profile, click the red glasses at to of each post, my wife was in your shoes now we have a huge mess. She regrets NOT having said something to me about her actual feelings for this little [censored]. NSR seems to know Dr.H's material pretty well I'm learning it my self. His solutions for marital problems are simple.However they sre not necessarily easy.<BR>Think long and hard about the vows you took, before you act out any more than you have. I don't mean to chastise you. It's just that I'm in an assload of pain from my W's EA. I only want to see you avoid it.<P>Keep posting, replying, and reading this board.<P>My Prayers are with You,<P>Bill

There was excellant advise here from everybody. You must break all contact with om if your marriage is to be saved!!!!!!<P>My stbx mentioned once or twice about problems and I too didn't understand what she was talking about. Above all, don't bring the problems up when you are mad about something else. Then he will never hear you.<P>This needs to be a loving, open, serious talk about your relationship.<P>Best of luck and God Bless

mschif:<P>First, I have to commend <B>nonplused</B>!<BR>Bravo! Bravo! Bravo!<BR>It was eloquent and more accurate than life itself... God... that was what I needed so desparately to hear about my W too!<P>Now... mschif...<BR>Please take to heart what <B>all</B> of us our saying... <B>Life is only as good as <I>you</I> can make it!</B> Don't rely on another man. You're bigger than that!<P><B>nonplused</B> really said it... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Life is not for regret, nor for envy, nor for dreaming. It's for making the most of ourselves and the time we have with our loved ones.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Throwing away you H... will not give you anywhere near the most... but just the opposite <P>Post... Post... Post... Reply... Reply... Reply... READ! READ! READ!... <BR>Think!... but most of all Think!<P>Prayers... for your thoughts at a difficult time.<P>Jim<BR>------------------<BR>I can dare myself... I'll put a pebble in my shoe...<BR>I can walk... I can walk! I shall call the pebble Dare...<BR>Dare shall be carried... And when we both have had enough<BR>I will take him from my shoe, singing... "Meet your new road!"...<BR>Finally glad... Finally glad... That you are here... By my side...<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited November 22, 1999).]

Lots of good advice even if I hate to admit it.<BR>My H does know about OM. We talked a week ago and though his initial reaction was a bit volatile, he has since calmed down. At one point said he could have taken it better if it was merely a physical thing, but it hurt more that it was emotional. He said if I wasn't happy I should get out, but that he didn't want to lose me.I have not seen the OM since, although we have still been talking. Yesterday OM told me to work things out with H. Said if I wanted to still be friends, fine, if not he understood. He's been a good friend, but I must summon up my courage I guess and say goodbye. This is not what I want, to lose a good friend, but I will try. I really like that The grass may be greener but you still have to mow it quote. I know that OM is a great guy, and no his intentions are not the purest, but whoever ends up with him will be damn lucky. I know, you all think I'm just feeling like this for the wrong reasons, but I know him, you don't. I've known guys who are just out for a good time, and those friendships quickly fizzled out. This guy is special, just not as special as my husband I guess. Someone said that I should be the one who changes if I'm not happy with H. I see your point, but I'm stubborn. I just want to be me. I don't want to learn to like going to bars, I don't want to succumb to his laziness. I've been trying things his way for 9yrs thinking I'd adjust. We have no recreational companionship. He doesn't care if I do things without him, thinks it's great. I don't want to do everything together, but it would be nice if we could find some common ground. Anyway, I haven't given up hope or I wouldn't be here. I'll keep trying.

Hi mschif,<P>I'm a betrayer like yourself, and like you, my affair was an emotional one. I know all the questions that get raised by this. I know all the things you are going through because I've been there.<P>I must say that you've gotten some very good advice here. It sounds to me like at one time you loved your husband very much. If so then I think you have an excellent chance to reconcile and get those feelings back again. But I really think that your husband has to be on board with this as much as you do. He has to realize that this time its not just the "do it 'til she shuts up again" routine.<P>There is one bit that nonplussed said that I must take issue with, and that is:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But something wasn't perfect. Anna thought something was missing. She found she couldn't change her husband to suit her purposes. He had a nasty habit of continuing to be himself. He just wasn't willing to do enough for her<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The reason I don't like this is because it makes it sound like the wife is being unreasonable to ask the husband to meet her emotional needs. The wife should just accept that her husband doesn't know how to do that. The "change to suit her purposes" line is actually rather offensive. I think it is a husband's <B>responsibility</B> to meet the emotional needs of his wife, just as it is for the wife to meet the husband's needs. Your husband has to recognize this and <B>change</B> to do that. Only then will your marriage have a <B>real</B> chance.<P>take care,<BR>--andy

Thanks Andy. I have to agree with you about the H needing to be there to meet my emotional needs. My questioning our relationship started long, long before the OM. I was amazed to see that it's suggested 15 hrs of quality time a week is needed to maintain a healthy relationship. I see this as no TV, no friends, just the 2 of us. I am lucky to get 5 good hours. Even when we just dating I don't think we had more than 10. This OM amazed me with the fact that he prefers my company to his friends, and even when we're with his friends, I am not ignored. It made me realize that maybe I wasn't asking too much from my husband, that I wasn't living in a fantasy world thinking it could be like that. I just don't know how to make him understand, and it hurts that he thinks it's a problem only I can solve.

mschif,<P>Yes, the OM prefers your company... right now he does. But what about when you've been together for awhile? What then? What about 2, 3, 4, 10 years down the road? Do you think he'll be just as attentive then? You might wind up in exactly the same position you are now. Maybe not, but it's something you have to think about. The OM might be more attentive now then your husband ever was, but that doesn't mean it will always be that way.<P>I guess what I'm saying is you have to gain a little perspective about the OM. This can only come with time and no contact with him. Right now your husband can't possibly compete with the OM because he's so elevated in your mind.<P>I've been skeptical about that 15 hours thing myself. There's just no way we (my wife and I) can do that. We've both got jobs that put us away from home until around 5 or 6pm every day. We have a 9 yr old son who just can't be shuffled off somewhere. Where do we magically pull these 15 hours from? Believe me, we've been trying, but the best we can manage is like 9 or 10... and that's on a <B>good</B> week! <P>--andy

This whole post brings up a question that still bothers me. Does it ever work to just *talk* to one's spouse to wake them up that one's needs are not being met and that something disastrous is on the horizon if things don't change? <P>I keep telling my H that if he had only come to me and told me how seriously unhappy he was and that he was considering having an affair, it would have delivered the wake up kick without the total nuclear destruction his affair caused. Would I have realized how serious our situation was? Would I have set out to change things and try to meet his needs? I think so, but I guess I will never know. <P>I know many people feel differently, but I hate to hear someone say that they are grateful for the affair because now they are better than ever! I can see how you can end up with a better marriage because you start communicating with each other and meeting each other's needs, but I refuse to believe that there could not have been another way to achieve the improvement - a way that would not totally destroy the soul and self-respect of the spouse, as well as the soul of the marriage.<P>It just seems that from what I have read here over and over, the betraying spouse gives some ambiguous clues that they are unhappy, then goes ahead and does what he or she feels like without alerting their spouse that there is SERIOUS trouble.<P>Maybe I am just analytical instead of a "feelings" type of person, but I can't get this question out of my mind. Comments anyone? Help me understand!<BR>

Dancer,<P>I don't know how it works in every relationship, but I have had some very serious, open and what I thought productive conversations with H. I am not the best communicator, but I am no slouch either. I think because my H has never felt unhappy (or least not that he's told me) he has never truly understood where I am coming from, he thinks that if something were wrong, both of us would be unhappy. It's a shame but I think sometimes you have to come close to losing something before you wake up, and in the worse cases, some lose it before they realize. I am not saying that my affair has made our relationship stronger, but I am not sorry I met OM. I think he has woken up both me and my H. Me by showing me that I obviously still am not being heard in my relationship, and for my H that I really have something to say.

I read a lot here but don't post much but had to reply to mschif. You sound just like me about 4 months ago. I was a few steps behind you, not involved in a EA but on the brink. My H I felt put his friends first he wasn't a couch potato but spent what I considered an inordinate amount of time hanging out with guys wasn't meeting my need etc., but basically he was a good guy. We would have discussions every once in a while and things would change temporarily. Anyway, about 4 months ago I had just had it I began to think like you maybe we just weren't right for each and there was someone better out there. I was so incredibly unhappy; I just hated the thought of divorce. I decided to give it one more try. Found a book called "The Surrendered Wife" Basically it is about giving up our expectations about our H and changing the only person we can change which is ourselves. I decided to give it a try. A month later I found this site. Starting reading everything lurked around the forums. Printed out the Emotional Needs Test. To make a long story short I started meeting my H needs with no expectations of getting mine met(Very Hard to do) But you know what after a couple months he started to meet my needs and more. <P>I Thought I was no slouch when it came to communication too, but you know what I started to really think about how I had communicated in my marriage. And you know what it basically consisted of me sitting there telling him everything he was not doing right and what he needed to do to meet my needs. He would change temporarily and then it was to back to normal. As time went on I turned into a nagging, controlling b#$@h<BR>trying to get him to change to meet my needs. <P>Now I focus on the positive, quit trying to change him to meet my expectations, but let him change on his own, which he has and when I do get frustrated about something he did or did not do I give it up to God.<P>The proof that this is working is that my needs are being met things are better than they ever have been in 10 years of marriage.<BR>And my H asked me a few days ago if I was happier than I was a few months ago. I said yes> He said ,"I don't understand how that can be I haven't changed at all. I am the same as I was those few months ago when you were so unhappy and yet now you are happier than you've ever been." I said, " Yeah, I don't understand it either, Must be a miracle.<P>

KalGrl,<BR>Good for you! How I wish I could have been that insightful at the time my wife was telling me constantly what it was she needed. Instead my wife and I have a hurt that will last a lifetime. <BR>When you start really meeting the other persons needs it seems to have a very positive synergetic effect. My wife and I are closer now than we have been in years all because we took the time to ID each others needs and then just started to work on making the other happy. And it worked for us. It's just a tragedy that it took an affair to make our miracle happen.<P>