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I found this from one of Renae's posts, and I followed the link. WOW!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I heard excellent messages by David T. Moore, that aired on radio this week (Monday,Jan. 21, Tues.,Jan. 22, and Wed., Jan. 23)! These can also be heard via the internet at http://www.mooreonlife.com. , "The Curse of Codependency" and "The Cure of Codependency".
These can be ordered on audio or video tape too.
I found these messages very helpful, so I recommend them to you all!<hr></blockquote><p>http://www.mooreonlife.com<p>I found it is so good, that I got out a pen and paper and started taking notes as I listened. He talks about King Saul being co-dependent, people pleaser, etc. Ladies, this is absolutely eye-opening!<p>He gave scriptures to look up - and talked a lot about the Bible had a lot of verses about the need for Self-control, but none on the need to control others. <p>It is amazing how co-dependency can be learned from generation to generation, and how it can be super huge behaviors that are very obvious, and then other behaviors that are not obvious. <p>I just encourage you to take the time to listen to some of his broadcasts. - and thanks Renae!<p>FYI!<p>TNT <p>FYI!

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Thanks for the link. Discovery Series (RBC Ministries) has their latest booklet on this issue also. Interesting this topic keeps "popping up" around me the last few days. Ok, Lord, I think I'm getting the hint.<p>Read this verse today in Exodus 29:46 today:<p>"I am the One who brought them out of Egypt SO THAT I could live among them."<p>God brings us out of slavery and keeps bringing us out of the bondages that hold us (co-dependency, etc) SO He can be in a more intimate relationship with us (and we can also enjoy more intimate, healthy relationships with others).<p>The first God brought the co-dependency issue to my attention was 14 years ago. He has been continually freeing me from more and more layers of it (I must have had a pretty bad case!!). As a result I can enjoy relationships so much more (friends, children, family...). Now its' time again, becuase the one relationship still limping along with this is with my H. So, here we go again...more revelations, more confronting truth, more growth, more freedom.

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Thank you tnt for the link. The audio is a bit more than my computer likes to handle, but I got through most of the programs. <p>When he spoke about the great need for control as part codependency, I couldn't tell if he was talking about the role I play in the relationship or my H's role. Or is it both? I don't consider myself a controlling person. Could I have a control issue that I haven't faced?

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LH,
It is both - the codependent is driven to control others (and situations), as well as is controlled by the other person. <p>From a booklet I have ("When We Love Too Much, Escaping the Control of Codependency") from Radio Bible Class Ministries:<p>"A careful examination of codependent people reveals fear, misplaced trust (not in God, as it should be), and poor examples (growing up) drive them to contol and be controlled".<p>"Codependent people add to their pain an even greater problem - a determination to manage life apart from God. Instead of wanting and trusting in God, they are committed to managing life and protecting themselves throug their own codependent means. If we are to break the pattern of codependency, we need to honestly admit that our real problem is our tendency to mange our world without God."<p>There are degrees of codependency. Some of us are codependent around weak and needy people. Others are codependent even around healthy people. It seems hardest to break out of the role when the other person is weak and seemingly self-destructive. <p>I am really struggling with this today. I am so frustrated with trying to "build a marriage" with my husband. He just seems to sabotage any building - in his subtle, passive ways. We are going to a pretty good counselor now (only been a few times), and my H. is back to his ways of just not being able to get to the assignments (does them partially), or not at all ("didn't know about it" - despite being in the room when the counselor gave it to us). Yesterday he said he just has to be really convinced of the "benefit" of the assignments in order to be willing to do the work. I guess the fact that our marriage barely exists and had the tragedy of an affair are just not big enough red flags for a man like this. I'm not sure what more it will take. Our counselor told him divorce court is just down the street and we aren't too far from it. Finally I made him write up a "contract" that stated specifically what he is willing to do to work on our marriage. I've asked him to give it to our pastor and our counselor and ask them to hold him accountable. If he does not keep this contract, it will mean he is not serious about building our marriage and he has to move out. It sounds so harsh and controlling on my part - but really he has all the control. In any other situation (job or school), this kind of behavior would not be tolerated (forgetting, blowing off assignments, half-hearted attempts). <p>I want to get out of this codependent dance. I want to work with an adult. I'm just so saddened to hear he doesn't "see" the benefit of putting work into our marriage. <p>I feel like I'm working against forces that seek to destroy anything good. It made me realize this is a spiritual battle - I can't fight it myself. I want to get out of the cycle of getting angry whenever he sabotages any good.<p> [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

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Hi LH & Sifted.<p>You know, when I read Proverbs it is so easy for me to say "wow, my husband fits this." But it so hard for me to see myself sometimes.<p>Now I am looking into co-dependency issues - and I can for sure say "wow, my husband fits this to a tee", (same with narcissm) - BUT I want to be emotionally healthy - so I am now trying to observe my behaviors as they relate to these new revelations. I think I am a natural co-dependent, but that I have been growing emotionally for some time now and have not been using those old behaviors. I want to understand myself more.<p>I am glad that you guys liked the link. Kudo's to Renae!<p>Love,
TNT

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http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-2145902-8397745<p>Look at this one for a challenge at how we interact in unhealthy ways and how to love differently. Am watching his videos at church and it is powerful.

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SueB - I couldn't make this link go anywhere (just to a page that said "bug browser". <p>How are you doing anyway? I remember you have a pretty trying situation. Is it getting better?

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http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_75_1/102-2145902-8397745<p>Sorry. If this doesn't work, then the book is Bold Love by Dan Allender. My situation remains trying but I can say God is teaching me a lot about living with a difficult person, about loving as Jesus loved and about boundaries.

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WOW, this is me too! <what a surprise, eh? :rolleyes ><p>What kills me is that I have not just been co-dependent around men, but WOMEN too. I have this one friend who I became so incredibly emeshed with that I couldn't pee without her permission. And yes, I am completely serious (not about the "pee" part, but that it was that severe). I would be embarrassed to share about some of the things I got involved with because of this woman. <p>I think it ultimately comes down to a complete lack of self-worth... <p>My grandmother gave me a little book about Christian's and self-esteem. Gosh, we're SUPPOSE to believe that because God made us, that we are worthy, period! It's true... why is it so hard?

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Hi ladies,
I can see that my relationship with H is codependent, but this thing about both people having control issues has me scratching my head. My H bitterly complains about how controlling I am. His mother was very controlling. She was very high energy, successful in business, always on the go. Those are traits I'd like to claim for myself, but I feel lacking in those areas. She was also extremely outgoing, rather pushy, and a bit too materialistic for my comfort level. Those are also traits I lack, and they're not on my list of goals either! For the most part, I feel like I'm so NOT like his mother. Yet, I feel like I have a parent/child relationship with H. It was a role I accepted willingly at first. Later when I tried to disengage from that role, it seemed to stick like glue. I can see how I've enabled my H's dysfunctional behavior, but when I look at ME having control issues, my response is "that shoe doesn't fit!" <p>An example of my "controlling" behavior that my H sited in counselling was the way I'd ask him to get me a napkin. He referred back to his childhood home where he was expected to get his OWN napkin if he wanted one. I'm thinking, first of all, you're not living in your childhood home anymore dude! Silent LB I know. Then I reflect on times I've made that request. It happens rarely and only at times when I'm already seated and he's still standing. I thought to myself, well, this must mean that any request, no matter how small, is viewed as control by him. If I'm to avoid the "controller" role, then that must mean I can't ask for one single thing of him! I feel like I'm not "allowed" to have requests or expectations. <p>The control issue I see in front of me is deficiencies in self control. I'm addicted to smoking. Like Mark Twain said, quitting smoking is easy, I've done it hundreds of times. LOL I put on a nicotine patch this morning and I'm trying one more time. The audio link mentioned how the bible says 8 different times to love your neighbor as you love yourself. The key to that is having enough self control to honor yourself and practice proper self care.<p>If codependency and control issues are intertwined, could MY control problem be the LACK of self control??? I typically think of control problems as exerting control over another person. I'm willing to examine the errors of my ways, but I just don't see myself as a "control freak." SueB, slw, tnt, how do you see y'alls control issues? I hear the words, but I don't get it.

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Hi all!<p>I just came back from an all day workshop on Boundaries - given by Dr. Townsend (Boundaries book). It was excellent. He is a very entertaining, funny speaker - lots of jokes about codependents, which many of us related to. It feels good to laugh about it - part of the healing?<p>When I have a chance (maybe tomorrow) I'll see if I can post a few nuggets from his talks, especially some things he said about codependents. <p>Also, my counselor has been pointing out how I am trying to control my H. by trying to get him to participate in assignments, etc. He has to want to do it. This doesn't let him off the hook - it is just a statement that I can't control him or make him grow. That is to help me from carrying him. I CAN'T do it. Interestingly there is a grieving that comes along with this (Dr. Townsend talked about today) - it is a sadness that comes with realizing we can't make things the way we want. Like grieving the loss of the type of marriage I keep trying to get. I have to let it go and go through the sadness. I need to stop going to an empty well - the grieving is realizing I "can't get it here". At least not now - and not this way. It takes two to make a marriage and you can't make it by yourself - hence the grieving.<p>Hope this makes sense. I'm typing fast and pretty tired from the workshop.<p>[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: siftedlikewheat ]</p>

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David Moore's talks about stress are fantastic too! I listened to them last night as I slogged through some backlogged paperwork (a huge source of stress right now). It was especially encouraging to hear about the recovery time needed after an episode of stress. <p>SLW, can't wait to hear about your boundaries workshop.

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Ok, maybe I have a few moments to post a few things I learned at the Boundaries workshop.<p>Most importantly: It's ALL my H.'s fault and if he doesn't change I'll NEVER be happy!!<p>JUST KIDDING!! But it is fun to laugh about it all and enjoy a few more minutes of codependent thinking before moving on to maturity and getting my own life.<p>Seriously now, here are a few things I found interesting:
There are 3 levels of correction:
1. Self-correction (this is the most mature level)
2. Other-correction (when we have blindspots and things we can't see ourselves)
3. Reality consequences (when we don't listen to words and action is necessary)<p>The problem with codependets is they interfere with God's correction process in others' lives. It is the Law of reaping and sowing - and because codependents are going around rescuing others, we prevent God's process for them to grow. This is especially true when we try to rescue from reality consequences. Dr. Townsend actually said that rescuing our friend/spouse/whoever is killing them!! We stand in the way of God. That really got my attention. Codependents don't have a life since they are so busy worrying about everyone elses'. We need to get on with developing our own heart, passions and gifts - and leave rescuing.<p>It made me realize that we are often focusing on helping/rescuing others so we don't have to look at our own issues. Phew! that is a lot to think on, but I know I don't want to get to the end of my life and find I haven't really lived it because I was too preoccupied with others.<p>We are to live so righteously ourself (in the light with grace and truth), so our spouse (or whoever) must choose between darkness and light. Also, don't take away others' choices. If they choose to live irresponsibly, they can choose it, but you don't need to participate (your choice). Give them enough freedom so they can face God (and not you!).<p>And here is one for you LH (along with all the above which probably confirms the steps you are taking): In marriage we are to require ownership. Each party should require life from the other (it is a requirement of marriage). You should require that your spouse step up to the plate, be part of the team and participate in the marriage. We are not meant to carry our spouses.<p>Anyway, lots of freeing thoughts to lighten the load of those of us who have carried way more than we ever should have. I'm realizing I need to focus on myself and what belongs to me - develop myself, my heart and passions so God can use me in the way He intended. Carrying someone else is definitely not what He intended. <p>One last thought about marriage and boundaries: We should be willing to see our spouses' growth as more important than our comfort. Do not make happiness your #1 goal. Don't keep asking if your spouse is making you happy - ask "is my spouse helping me to grow". That is what we should desire and our spouse should desire from us. We are not to be an anesthetic for our spouses' life (and vice versa).

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[img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] I am new here and am not sure if I am in the right place. My first post was in the negotiations section where I got very little feedback. I have posted since in response to some other things I have seen here and kinda like this place.<p>Is this a bible study?? I have read some of these posts and can relate. I am married 20 years this Wednesday, Feb 6th, and am in a power struggle with my husband for various reasons. One is, he wants all the power and I want God to have all the power with me as fascilatator! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
Either way, we both are trying to take God's job away from Him and we are struggling. So, what do ya say ladies, could this place be for me?????

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by frstrtd:
<strong> [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] I am new here and am not sure if I am in the right place. My first post was in the negotiations section where I got very little feedback. I have posted since in response to some other things I have seen here and kinda like this place.<p>Is this a bible study?? I have read some of these posts and can relate. I am married 20 years this Wednesday, Feb 6th, and am in a power struggle with my husband for various reasons. One is, he wants all the power and I want God to have all the power with me as fascilatator! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
Either way, we both are trying to take God's job away from Him and we are struggling. So, what do ya say ladies, could this place be for me?????</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, yes, it WAS a Bible Study at first, and a study for "The Power of a Praying Wife" ... and it's since evolved into a place for Christian wives to find help, support, a shoulder or two... and a place to vent, cry, question and complain a bit...<p>Yes, you're in the right place!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So... why not begin your own thread here and tell us your story and we'll go from there...<p>This is what I like to call, "The gentle forum"... and you are more than welcome to come on in!!

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If codependency and control issues are intertwined, could MY control problem be the LACK of self control??? I typically think of control problems as exerting control over another person. I'm willing to examine the errors of my ways, but I just don't see myself as a "control freak." SueB, slw, tnt, how do you see y'alls control issues? I hear the words, but I don't get it. <hr></blockquote><p>Wow, that is just where I am at. I had posted a thread to see where we could analyze "my behavior" - to see if there is any indications of "unhealthy coping strategies" - but, all we can tell is that H is messed up. That is a 'duh' to me, I can see that! So obvious. <p>In fact, my IC the other day told me that it basically isn't me. hmmmm.... <p>But - getting to the "self-control".... WOW, there is where I lack big time. (which by the way seems to be a huge lovebuster for H.) I am an INFP - just like Faith Hope and Love (sometimes I go to an E - so not a strong introvert) - and this is part of my personality trait.... hate mundane activities. And I do smoke too. I am not as self-disciplined as my H. (Big lovebuster to him.) But I seem to manage - sorta, anyways. Maybe that is the direction I need to head, is to understand my lack of self-control. <p>Thanks!
TNT

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I'm an INFP too! Y'know tnt, after what happened to me yesterday, I'm really questioning why I try to be nice to my H at all. It just seems like wasted effort. Not sure whether to start a new thread or say what happened here. Gotta run for now.

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Well, LH, as long as you post it SOMEWHERE!!! What happened??? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>(((((LH)))))

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Yeah, I'm with Sheryl on that one..... what happened? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Did he catch a cold from taking cold showers and called you up to blame it on you because you didn't reassure him that there was a limited risk in having your water heated with gas? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Or...???? <p>LET US KNOW!!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

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Ok, here's what happened. I visited my mom, who is the source of my kind and thoughtful gene. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] She also worries about H being cold at night, so she offered him an electric blanket. Mom, bless her heart, also offered him the love seat from her den. Knowing him as I do, I wasn't sure if he would use or accept either one, but I took the blanket with me. <p>Yesterday was pretty cold, so I decided it would be a nice gesture if I took him the blanket that day. I was squeamish about going there unannounced, but it's kinda hard to go there any other way since he doesn't have a phone for calls or email access. So, I go there, he's home, I knock on the door and he answers. <p>I offered him the blanket, to which he responded reluctantly. Said he wasn't sure if he would use it, as he looks inside the bag. I started to take it back, saying he didn't have to take it if he didn't want to. Of course, he has to disagree with THAT too, and he says he'll keep it. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] He didn't say thank you, showed no sign of appreciation for the blanket or the thoughtful notion. I should KNOW what to expect from him by now, but still I could feel my feathers ruffling. But that was just the beginning. <p>Then he tells me he has a phone now. He tells me the number, doesn't offer to write it down, or invite me inside. He tells me how he had to buy a new phone (not sure if he HAD to or if it was a backhanded slight to the phone I sent with him when he moved). I'm starting to shiver by that time, and I'm not particularly interested in listening to his blow by blow account of how he got his phone service. <p>I decide to leave and then remember the love seat. I told him about Mom shopping for a hideabed and her willingness to let him have her loveseat. Instead of saying yes or no or any expression of appreciation, he starts complaining about his neck and back hurting from lack of comfortable furniture to sit on. It's starting to mist by that point, and I'm still standing out in the cold. I said, well, "take some time to think about the furniture and let me know. I'm leaving now." I hightailed it outta there. <p>His rude behavior isn't anything new. I expected resistance, and that's exactly how he behaved. No surprises there. What I'm really having to examine is WHY DO I BOTHER???? I was raised to be kind, courteous and thoughtful, and I'm grateful that it's a quality I still possess. <p>In light of the "control" issues mentioned in David Moore's talk about codependency, I suppose I did have a "string" attached to the gift. I expect an expression of thanks and appreciation in return for that gift. If he really and truly doesn't want the blanket or use it, it's really no skin off my nose. I'm coming away from the episode feeling like my kindness and thoughtfulness are some sort of character flaws. Even more than that, I feel like my effort to be thoughtful is a failure. I feel like one of my best qualities is being ground under the heel of a muddy boot. I feel like a total moron for devoting 15 years of my life to this man. I feel like I've taken a barrel of my precious life resources and poured them directly down a drain. I feel really really dumb right now. That's my reward for being nice? Tell me what's wrong with this picture!

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