Everytime I read something about the effects of divorce on children, the article will say that high conflict marriages are not good for children either. But why do they assume that most, or even very many, marriages were high conflict? I have never met anyone who claimed to have gotten divorced after a marriage of high conflict. Ever. I am sure they exist, but I don't think they anywhere near as common as the "divorce apologists" as Frank Pittman calls them would have you believe. But I have met several people whose H left them for an OW, completely out of the blue. <P>Generally speaking, marriages don't end because of conflict. All that talk of "not getting along", "not loving each other as H and W should", "growing apart" - that simply doesn't happen very often. Marriages end because of affairs. And betrayers (at least male ones) generally have affairs because it is easier than figuring out what is missing from themselves or from their relationship and talking about it with their spouse. It is very rare to see a male betrayer who had an affair only after years of trying to get his spouse to go to counselling - I can think of only one case that I have seen on this board. <P>

Nellie:<P>I bet you were referring to my marriage - where my ex H tried to get me to go to counseling for "years" before finally having his affair. <P>I actually agree that having children live day in and day out with the anger, resentment, frustration, fighting, yelling and of couse the tried and true silent treatment, is not an ideal situation for them. In fact, quite unhealthy. My children have since told me that they appreciate the "no fighting" less stressful environment they now live in. While it is true that the ultimate scenario is having two LOVING parents in the home, I think we (my ex and I) have gone the extra mile to provide the next best thing. Certainly not what I wanted. Not at all. But I did cause alot of the strain and stress of our marriage, and yes my ex H begged me to please see a counselor. By the time my blinders were off, and I saw the light, it was too late.<P>Interested in seeing other opinions on this.<P>TL

While I agree with the experts that an affair often reveals undealt with problems in a marriage, I also believe that affairs are the death of many if not most marriages. My W and I had one of the best years of our 20+ together just months before she went into an affair. She now reinterprets those good times as naive, nostalgic, shallow, and empty - a cover-up for all the bad problems that went untalked about for all those year. There is certainly some truth in it - and I have repeatedly told her I see those things and would love to address them in counseling. But the rupture in our marriage occurred, in my opinion, because of the affair and all the toxins introduced into our marriage through that betrayal (which she does not see as the problem, only a problem). It is very frustrating - as Pittman say, temporary insanity.

Nellie1,<P>When someone tells me they got a divorce because things "just didn't work out", or a bunch of the other things you listed, it makes me a little suspicious. My answer these days is something like "We had problems, of which I was a big contributor as well, and my H didn't want to try anymore". I know that sounds like a cop-out, but I don't think my affair was the sole-reason for our divorce and I'm not taking all the blame. When I confessed, I loved my H very much. It is only after the year from hell, where he did everything he could (seemingly) to crush me did I have to reassess my original opinion. It is only now that I believe that he never really loved me, and that the hopelessness I felt before the affair was not completely in my head. Long before the affair, it was me going to all the counseling. My ex had me convinced that my inability to deal with his anger had nothing to do with him. I understand now that he has a HUGE anger problem. It will only be a matter of time before he figures that out. Probably after divorce #2. It will only be a matter of time before your H figures out that he can't run away from himself either...<P>I still believe my affair was a symptom of deep problems in our marriage and within myself that I'd never properly dealt with in the past. However, I still believe we'd be married today if my ex could have been a little more honest with himself about the destructive things he had done in our marriage. Someone said that affairs don't cause the problems in the marriage, it just makes people not want to try to fix them. I agree with that statement. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 07, 2000).]

I believe that most affairs are because of deep rooted problems were in the marriage before.<BR>I beleieve that there are sexual addictions in which that may be the overwhelming factor in some affairs.(not an excuse just a factor)<BR>I also tried to get my husband to go to counseling for years to try to save our marriage before I left and had the affair.(which i still can't believe i did)<p>[This message has been edited by unforgiven (edited March 07, 2000).]

I disagree with you. My marriage is ending because of conflict, not an EMR. I have tried to get my H to go to counseling with me, he refused. He promised to go get help for himself, he never did. <BR>I grew up in a household where my parents were fighting all the time, and it screwed me up immensely. I wished my parents had gotten divorced. I now have problems getting close to others, problems trusting, problems with basically every aspect of a normal relationship. <BR>I've known people who got divorced for this reason, a few in my family alone. I think it may be even more common than divorcing because of infidelity. That's just from what I've seen though.<BR>Now, my opinion on infidelity is that it usually doesn't happen unless there are underlying problems in the marriage. I know some people are just born "cheaters", but I think in the majority of cases, people use an EMR as an escape from reality, an escape from dealing with problems at home. Some have no intentions of leaving their marriage, and some of them do but they haven't figured out how to go through with it yet. It's wrong, but it provides comfort, much like alcohol provides comfort to an alcoholic. <BR>Just my opinion.<BR>heartfelt1

Tired Lady,<P>Yes, it was your situation I was referring to. My children did not live with "anger, resentment, frustration, fighting, yelling and of couse the tried and true silent treatment" - they had no idea that anything was wrong. I had no idea that anything was wrong with our marriage either, until my H's affair began. Even after my H had lived here for months while having the affair, my kids said we argued, "a medium amount" - and we argued a whole lot less frequently before. My H and I almost never went to bed mad. As to the silent treatment - one of our daughters didn't speak to another one once for about two days, and it drove everyone nuts. If it weren't for that, my kids would have no experience with the "silent treatment". <P>My H certainly never mentioned counseling. Never mentioned that he was unhappy with our marriage. I was completely blindsided by the affair - and I think that is typical of male betrayers. In general, from what I have seen, most female betrayers have at least told their husband that there were problems, and most male betrayers have not.<P>doc,<P>My H basically forgot most of our good times as soon as the affair began as well. Unfortunately, his insanity doesn't seem to be very temporary.<P>TheStudent,<P>Affairs certainly make them not want to fix them. My H admitted that when he said, "Why would I want to work on the marriage when I am happier now?" Unfortunately, he has never really identified problems in the marriage - I still don't know what he thought was wrong. And I never will, apparently.<P>unforgiven,<BR>Almost every female betrayer on the board has said the same thing - that they tried to get their H to go to counseling. And most male betrayers never let on that anything was wrong. <P>

We never had any extreme problems in our marriage....very little if at all was there any fighting. I never knew he was unhappy....even after affair and we were working it out. Now he claims to have just been out and out miserable. I never saw it....friends and co-workers never saw it...neither did the girls. That is what really devastated them. The 9 year told me that she believed everything was great between us.....that dad was happy and had even told her of how much he loved her mother and how he would never ever think of leaving.<P>After receiving that e-mail from my friends husband....I see how affairs start. I am not dumb. He said everything nice to me....things that would have made a naive person fall. I knew better. My H had sort of admitted at the start (after discovery) that he could see what OW was doing and said that he felt stupid for falling for it. Then addiction set in and he must have contacted her again....because things changed overnight. Then he would be ok for about 2 weeks.....then he needed his fix again. So we went like this for 3 months...all the while I thought it was me....my depression....that was bringing all of this "bad" feelings stuff out. Now I know it was her again. He just can't stop. Even now...after all of these months I can tell by his telephone conversations to me or the girls....when he has been with her....he becomes this totally different person.<P>I believe that most people will stay in a marriage...even if unhappy...but will leave if they are in an affair. Just my opinion.

Nellie,<P>Affairs are often seen as a "cause" of divorce, however, the affair is usually just a symptom of the underrlying problems in a marriage. The ultimate "cause" of divorce is the refusal of one or both spouses to deal with their issues.<P>An excellent book on the subject is "The Case Against Divorce" by Dr. Diane Medved, in which the author destroys the myths and excuses about divorce.<P>The biggest myth is the false dichotomy: <BR>"a good divorce is better than a bad marriage".<P>First of all, couples in a high conlict marriage are most likely to have high conflict divorce. Secondly, with all the work a couple needs to do to go through divorce (including a minimum 5 to 7 years of recovery), doesn't it make more sense to put that effort into rebuilding the marriage?<P>Many people go through divorce and then look back and realize they didn't expect it to be as hard as it was. In retrospect, most divorced people think they could have saved their marriage if they had realy tried! Duh!<BR>But by then, it's too late.<P>Simply put, fixing a bad marriage is easier on everyone that going through a bad divorce, and the end result is certainly preferrable.<P>There are several other destructive myths about the reasons for divorce and it's effect on family members. The more people understand about this the better.<P>Kenneth

Kenneth,<BR>I completely agree with you. My parents (who have gone through some truly awful times in their marriage) told me long ago something like... "Make a decision to be married or be single. If you get married, you might as well stay with that one person and stick it out, because if you move on to someone else, you'll just get the same problems (from yourself) and probably a whole crop of new ones. "<BR>I really don't understand how some people think that life is going to be magically different if they start from scratch with someone new. There are very, very few good reasons for a divorce IMO.

heartfelt,<P>I don't think divorcing due to conflict is all that common - and particularly in cases of a long term marriage. My H claimed to the therapist that we fought frequently - but it must have been someone else he was fighting with, because he was the only one of the 8 people living in our household who thought so. I agree that the affair was an escape - and escape from our financial problems, an escape from the fact that he felt like a failure and probably thought that I would agree. <P>Mental,<P>My H used to behave very differently depending on how recently he had be with the OW. <P>Sometimes I think that they just have completely lost their minds, and then the H and the OW have to share one mind - hers - and the H gets the smaller half.<P>Kenneth,<P>It seems much easier to run away than to address issues. The OW apparently told him that the kids would be ok after a period of adjustment. He doesn't have to worry about recovery, since he's got everything he wants - companionship, money, etc., and he knows he can see the kids as much as she is willing to let him. Not that he seems to want to see them very often. And if the kids seem unhappy - well, that must be my fault too.<P>TheStudent,<P>I agree that there are very few good reasons for divorce. Unfortunately, I think that his life is magically different. He no longer has the financial problems he used to. He no longer has any day to day responsibility for the kids, or home ownership, or basically anything except his job. He no longer gets to spread his anger around and be irritable and short-tempered with her and her kids, but he still has me to direct it at. It is "safe" to direct all his anger at me. It is not "safe" to direct it at the OW, or probably even display it in front of her, so he bottles it up and lets it come out at me. <P>I used to wonder how he could give up his kids for her. But, I think I was assuming that he felt about our kids like I do. Maybe he can give them up because he never really was terribly connected to them. I know he thinks he loves them, and he probably does at some level, but I don't think he has ever been capable of real love. His father never showed much love to him, and I don't think he ever learned how to love. <BR>

This is from my favorite book "The Road Less Travelled". In it is possibly the best description of "love" I have ever seen. So many people claim to love their children, spouses, whomever, and actually have no real love at all. As a child, I was never loved by my parents. They had so many things going on with themselves personally, that they couldn't be there for me and my sister. As you know, love for a child involves so much more than providing shelter and food. Anyway, here's what the book says:<P>...love is an action, an activity. This leads to the final major misconception of love which needs to be addressed. Love is not a feeling. Many, many people possessing a feeling of love and even acting in response to that feeling act in all manner of unloving and destructive ways. On the other hand, a genuinely loving individual will often take loving and constructive action toward a person he or she consciously dislikes, actually feeling no love toward the person at the time and perhaps even finding the person repugnant in some way. <P>...the fact that we have cathected another human being does not mean that we care a whit for that person's spiritual development...<P>...In a constructive marriage the partners must regularly, routinely and predictably, attend to each other and their relationship no matter how they feel. As has been mentioned, couples sooner or later always fall out of love, and it is at the moment when the mating instinct has run its course that the opportunity for genuine love begins. It is when the spouses no longer feel like being in each other's company always, when they would rather be elsewhere some of the time, that their love begins to be tested and will be found to be present or absent.<P>...People who neglect their children in the grossest of ways more often than not will consider themselves the most loving of parents. It is clear that ther may be a self-serving quality in this tendency to confuse love with the feeling of love; it is easy and not at all unpleasant to find evidence of love in one's feelings. It may be difficult and painful to search for evidence of love in one's actions."<P>This is why I truly believe my ex-H never loved me. He was attached to me and had a "feeling" of love while I did and thought exactly like him and while everything went his way. The slightest evidence of differences (i.e. my desire to go back to school, while he wanted to stay where we were) was occasion for serious bouts of criticism towards me. The second I showed him that I was not under his control and had a mind of my own, his "love" disappeared. When I wasn't *feeling* in love with myself or my H, I did something very harmful that I regret very much. However, it did not alter my commitment to restore and improve my marriage and myself. He asked me "How could you say you loved me when you did something like cheat on me?" I said, "You are absolutely right that cheating on you was a very un-loving thing to do. However, I confessed and am willing to stay by you to help you heal and to restore our marriage. THAT is love!!"<P>Think about all of the times when your kids were sick, or grumpy, or just down right immanageable and you had a hard time attending to them. You didn't send them off or put them up for adoption, right? I don't understand how spouses can justify a divorce either. A marriage commitment is no different to me than the commitment to have children. <P>