Having come a long way after S's complicated, lengthy affair reservations still exist with both of us over S's altered facts of the affair. Lack of honesty to protect spouse and in part to "protect" me. As many have expressed on the forum, I need S to be perfectly honest about the affair and can handle it. What the betrayed thinks is often worse than reality and can be a greater impediment for recovery than facts.<P>I'm dedicated to: "Don't ask, forgive" but feel there will always be lingering reservations on both our parts without clearing the air with the fresh breeze of truth. How can the betrayer be encouraged to open up without LB?<P>Harley's advice is honesty -past, present, future. Would value others views.

I have to say that the hardest part of opening that door was letting my betraying spouse know that I wasn't about to run away once he started revealing the truth I wasn't going to run. The other part of that was I had the resposibility of asking the questions to direct us both down the right path, knowing he must be honest with me in all things and that I had some questions that would be painful to both of us!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!

There was a thread here about a week ago on a similar topic. I think it was called Can You Forgive Without The Truth (or something similar).<P>My thoughts are that you can WANT to forgive without the truth, but you need to really know what you are being asked to forgive. If not, why couldn't the wayward spouse just admit they have committed a wrongful act of some kind and expect a blanket forgiveness without any further acknowledgement.<P>The truth is not the same as knowing every painful detail. You can forgive without knowing every second of play-by-play, but you do need to generally know what happened in order to deal with the truth and be able to forgive.<P>Just my opinion and the way it worked for me.<P>Peppermint

Our problem is that all the questions have been asked but, even those with irrefutable facts (telephone logs, witness statements, etc) to back up the questions, are denied by S. It's almost as if S has convinced self that the altered facts have become the truth and now to admit to them would destroy her credibility.<P>How to get the facts without LB is a biggy.

My H has had a couple of affairs and to tell you the truth... ignorance is bliss.<P>With his first affair I was not allowed to know very much at all!!! And although that was hard for me to accept, I can see the wiseness in that situation now.<P>With his second affair, I knew many many details, from both him and her. Curiosity, insecurities and who knows what else makes you feel the need to know as many of the detail as possible but I will tell you something. The first affair was a whole lot easier to get over than the second.<P>The knowledge that I have from the second affair has made things so much harder for me and him to get back to where we should be. Even now after a year of recovery it is still very hard for me, especially.<P>That is what I mean by ignorance being bliss.<P>When you want details... be careful that you really want to know and that you will be able to deal with whatever they are. Many will be hard to hear and even harder to deal with in the days, weeks, months and even years to come.<P>However, there is the issue that if you don't know that hangs over your head also.<P>It really is a no win situation either way you look at it. The basic question that you have to ask yourself is... how much do you want to have to work through to overcome this nightmare? Because the more you know, the more you have to deal with and work through, the more questions you have, and the more resentment you feel.<P>It is a decision that you and your spouse must make together but on the betrayer's side, there is alot more too that they will have to deal with all over again. If full disclosure is decided upon... then you really need to make sure that your relationship is strong enough to handle that and that the betrayer can be there for you and allow you to go through all that you will go through and be there for you in a positive way.<P>Genie

Thanks Genie:<BR>Forgiveness is a priority for me. I'm sure all the undisclosed facts are not as bad as that which I have envisioned. Even the worst scenerio that's in my mind I can accept and forgive. The problem isn't the hard facts, it's the dishonesty of not disclosing the facts. How do you forgive that which you don't know?<BR>Will get back to the board later today for more hoped for advice.

I am dealing with the sames issues of trusting which of H's "truths" are true & which are lies. Its very hard to deal with. Without trust there is no marriage. I uncovered a bunch of lies to questions I had asked him a month ago & when I ask why all the lies, his response is that all telling me the truth does is get me more upset & get hin in more trouble. I keep telling him that it is the constant lies that is adding to my inabilatly to trust him. Yes the truth about his affair hurts, but not as much as finding out later on that he has added to the pain by dragging it out by not just being open & honest in the first place.

Almost universally authors on infidelity say that it's the lies, more than the actual infidelity, that are the hardest to get over and forgive. Many of the book listed on Notable Threads of MB recommend "brutal" honesty from the betrayer if the betrayed needs the information to heal. Discussion should be at the discretion of the betrayed but unfortunately introducting sensitive issues such as how, when and where are often LBs. The excuse that it's we the betrayer that's protected, "I forget" or "I don't want to talk about it" or "that's not important" just doesn't cut it for me.<P>Still trying to figure out how to negotiate honesty about the affair without LBing.

I'd expect total honesty about anything that happened during our relationship. Harley suggests that ALL things past, even things that happened long before you met your spouse should be confessed. That I disagree with. <P>The reason why I believe that is because I have had a very hard life starting in childhood. In my experience, nobody but a professional has any clue how to deal with that information without doing me more harm than what has already been done. Telling my life story to some people has done me much, much more harm than good. I think sometimes that people should let sleeping dogs lie. Regurgitating long distant painful history is very unconstructive and potentially very damaging, unless handled by an expert, IMO.

Hi Student:<P>If the past bears on ones actions and reactions today and tomorrow it might be reasonable to have your partner party to that past. They would then be better able to understand cause and effect of buried feeling, problems and pain affecting the relationship. <P>Ones personal demons not related to infidelity might be thought to be best buried but honesty about the facts of an affair is due the betrayed spouse. Honesty is part of the compensation the books speak of as being owed by the betrayer to reestablish a trusting new relationship. <P>No relationship, new or reestablished, can survive without trust. Without openess and honesty there can be no trust. The choice of being vulnerable to love again depends on mutual trust.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Almost universally authors on infidelity say that it's the lies, more than the actual infidelity, that are the hardest to get over and forgive. Many of the book listed on Notable Threads of MB recommend "brutal" honesty from the betrayer if the betrayed needs the information to heal. Discussion should be at the discretion of the betrayed but unfortunately introducting sensitive issues such as how, when and where are often LBs. The excuse that it's we the betrayer that's protected, "I forget" or "I don't want to talk about it" or "that's not important" just doesn't cut it for me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree that honesty is an integral part of building a marriage to last a lifetime. It isn't a prerequisite to forgiveness, however. Honesty and Trust are two different things, trust and truth are two different things, trust and trustworthiness are two different things, and to kinda gain some sort of control over all of these important issues - it needs to be sorted.<P>Why not try listing your questions in a journal, and ask your wife for one after noon a week to go over some of the questions. Ask her not to lie, but to pick a couple or maybe one question to answer honestly about. <P>If she can stop lying, and you can slowly work towards honesty - it will help, but it is going to take more on your part than it is on her part - to be patient to wait it out. <P>In the rest of the week, make sure that you are not lovebusting to create an unsafe environment, and meet her most important emotional needs.<P>I'm sure you know how to trust, but you are not responsible for her trustworthiness. That is something she needs to re-develop, with your patience.<P>TNT

Have done exactly that ie. listed questions and sat down to go over them. Same style of response. Often go month or 2 without any reference to affair but still no real addressing of the real issues of how started, etc. etc. Patience tried to max for months but still no progress. Discouraging but still dedicated to patient wait and see. Otherwise progress great.<BR>Good evening all.

So - she won't even try to answer one question a week out of your journal of questions? <P>Then what other steps towards developing an honest relationship will she commit to?<P>Is it possible for you to say to your wife - "I feel _______ when we have not set a plan in place to work towards having honesty in our marriage. I need us to _________." ???<P>Sometimes both parties want the same things (a happy marriage where you feel safe and loved) - but fight over the methods to achieve this. Maybe some brainstorming with your wife so that you have a plan of how to restore honesty, safety and love? I know this can happen, even with the most devestated marriages....<P>But, maybe your wife hasn't arrived at the point where she does want a happy marriage where she and you both feel safe and loved? I believe recovery does not begin until there is that decision to work towards that goal. I believe recovery does begin when the parties can identify what they want, and are committed COMMITTED committed. Maybe, you are putting the cart in front of the horse? Maybe she isn't committed - and you are already thinking you can accomplish honesty in your marriage - without her commitment? if so, then I suggest plan A, until she realizes that the hope and goal of happy a happy marriage, that feels safe and loving - is possible. <P>TNT

Good morning trustntruth:<P>That's the inigma - we're both dedicated to rebuilding a peaceful and fulfilling marriage. Spouse is a wonderfully gentle, kind and caring person dedicated to fill all of my 10 needs and I to fill hers. No question of trust and sincerity now. Are following MB tenants and practicing every day. Get along great except..........<P>What is hidden about the affair, not what has been declared, plays on my mind and is the source of occasional LB. I believe the same hidden material is the cause or spouses reservation about giving herself permission to allow the vulnerability needed to accept all aspects of intimacy. She says her reservations are due to my attitude, I feel a lot has to do with her trying to bury the how, when, wheres of the affair.<P>Have written and presented my list of questions. Didn't work - big time love busting. Have tried presenting a question at a time - causes hostility and denial. Some of the lesser questions have been addressed but the major ones still are denied -"I don't remember, I don't want to talk about that, you wanted me to keep count? that's not important, you want all the dirty little details?, etc, etc." <P>We're working hard on the present and future building new good memories. Neither of us have reverted nor will revert to our old style of interacting in old marriage.<P>We're stuck. So much goodness has been rebuilt but the one problem of spouse's denied truths (many confirmed by independent investigation) and my problem of need for honesty about the past still exists.<P>

LooksGood<BR>First of all let me tell you that this is the biggest problem in recovery at my house as well.<BR>I just want to share my thoughts with you. No advice or solutions really.<BR>The thing that helped me the most though the early part of this was a post by Almost Happy. I will try to find it and give you a reference. She said that She really didn't want her H to remember that time so the questions weren't important.<P>As far as the truth with my H, I have 8 years of it that we need to get through. Over a third of our marriage was wasted on this little bimbo. Most of it was emotional betrayal.<P>Now I have come to some conclusions:<BR>1. My H lied so much really doesn't know what the truth is.<P>2. Talking about it makes him ashamed. He has grown into such a different person that he doesn't like to look at the man he was. Do I really want him to?<P>I do understand your need for some answers. I need them too. I study my questions before asking to find out for myself if I REALLY need to know that. Sometimes I don't.<P>Our spouses are afraid. They are afraid that the truth might be the thing that makes us decide to leave. <P>I think the only thing we can do is continue to make them feel safe about telling the truth. My H knows that my images are much worse than what really happened. But I don't think he is ready to talk about the truths because It would make the "bad guy" so real.<P>I don't know if this made any sense. I will try to find that thread I was telling you about. There are some very good thoughts in it.

Thanks wasstubborn, good to have your input again. Much the same with us only 1/2 our life together has been wasted by the OP. I'm sure much of what you feel about your husbands reactions apply to my S as well. Look forward to getting the other thread.<P>Gotta run, catch up to you later.<BR>

Just wanted to say I understand. Honesty and Openness is my greatest need in any relationship. It is so hard for me to understand that it is not for others. Mostly I want to know the whole truth to know that he can be honest, for him to be completely honest is the best way for him to build trust for me. I believe people shd be able to face what they've done and own up to it, so telling the whole (and I stress whole) adds up to repentance, integrity, and character, they own up to their mistakes. Like many of you have said, our mental images are usually worse than the reality, even tho the reality is soooo extremely painful too. I to am struggling still after final confession 10/99. Did he tell me everything? Is there more? What am I gonna find out next that he didn't tell? I hate this, not knowing, not feeling safe, and dread that it will happen again, and what will I do? <BR>No advice, just wanted to share, you're not alone!!!!

Hi there brknhrt:<P>As one author put it: We the betrayed can take ownership of the truth but not lies. When we own the truth we are able to settle the demons created by infidelity. <P>Pittman in "Private Lies" say that:<P> 'Lies disorient your partner and is a power play that will hurt the relationship. Honesty is the central factor in intimacy. People like to convince themselves that they are doing their loved ones a favor by hiding the unpleasant truth. Spouses know when they are being lied to; they just don't know what the truth is and if it's bad enough to lie about, they expect the worst.<P>The things people must talk about are those thing that are unsettling, guilt-producing or controversial. <P>The is no truth that is as destructive as a lie.<P>The lie, or the secret, is the real betrayal of trust and intimacy of the marriage. If people would only trust one another enough to reveal the secrets and tell the truth then they would be able to live happily ever after.'<P>Recovery from infidelity is far easier than recovery from the lies of infidelity. If lies continue during efforts for recovery dishonesty will greatly jeapordize the chances of building a new relationship.<P>The problem as I've said before is How oh How do you encourage your spouse to be completely honest. How do you do this without the questions you need answered being taken as LBs by the betrayor.<P>Honesty is my main need. I wonder if it's a priority for the betrayed but less so for the betrayer?<P>Life is getting better - this week better than the one before, this month of greater joy than the month before that and the last year far more peaceful than the many years previous to that. With truth life can become perfect. <P>`