Hi K, <P>I poked my nose into Sheba's thread to you and I have a question from what you wrote. <P>You mentioned that things are going well in your marriage now except the "no sex" thing. You stated that Steve gave you some ideas about that and I certainly am interested in what those ideas were. <P>My marriage is sloooooooowly healing. My wife and I are dating, we talk a lot, we laugh together, and we dream of our future. The one area that hasn't recovered is our physical intimacy. We do hug and I get quick kisses, but getting beyond that has been a trial. If I press, she will give in but I don't want that. I want her there emotionally as well as physically. <P>My counselor has told me to wait for her to initiate activity. He said it isn't that she doesn't want sex with me, it's that she doesn't want sex with anyone. She's also on anti-depressants, which I believe to be a libido killer. I certainly create the right environment for something to happen. I give her loads of non-sexual touch every day, and she really enjoy that. She just isn't interested in taking it further. <P>So, do you have any insight? If you tell me to give it TIME, I'll shoot you .<P>Thank you in advance for all your help. <P>SHA<P>------------------<BR>There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved.<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited May 03, 2000).]

Sir Hurts Alot,<P>I'm not K and I don't have any advise for you, but I wanted to poke my head in and tell you hello and am so happy that your marriage is back on the mend.<P>Prayers to you and your family.<P>God Bless,<P>Cheryl

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!<P>"If you tell me to give it TIME, I'll shoot you!!"<P>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!<P>SHA (heavy sigh) - I just LOVE YOU!!!<BR>You always make me laugh!!!!!!<P>But, please...I beg you....don't SHOOT K!!!!! How will we get these answers then? (kidding, K!!) You know that time is involved since he's been waiting too!!! <P>How are you Buddy? Besides the "dry spell"......<BR> <BR>Miss Ya.....I know I owe you E also!!<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba<BR>

SHA:<P>I'm sitting here in my bunker, with my Kevlar vest on, strapping the helmet over my head...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He said it isn't that she doesn't want sex with me, it's that she doesn't want sex with anyone. She's also on anti-depressants, which I believe to be a libido killer. I certainly create the right environment for something to happen. I give her loads of non-sexual touch every day, and she really enjoy that. She just isn't interested in taking it further. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Stop living my damn life!!! I've gotten the exact same message from my wife: it's not ME, it's that she doesn't want to have sex with ANYONE.<P>(and there are no drugs to blame, which is a concern on your part---and one that could be addressed by switching meds).<P>Loads of non-sexual touch?? Ditto. But a caveat here: the touch that I give her is similar to the touch I used to give her to "get her in the mood" (whether that's foot rubs, head/back massage, etc). So one of the things I've had to do is to COMPLETELY DECOUPLE the affectionate touch from any thoughts of sex. Ya think doing this for over a year would be a sure thing, but it's taking longer (but there is slow, steady progress).<P>So, when I discussed this with Steve, he said the most damn depressing thing I had EVER heard from him...<P>"You're basically doing all the right stuff..."<P>I think he told me to give it "more time" too. See---phone counseling is not only more convenient, it's safer for the counselor too! <P>The areas we centered our discussions on were the "Rule of Time"---doing things together, alone, to get the intimicy to build. We do our time in the evening, but that obviously hasn't been enough. We've also been having fun going out more often, but that mainly means "movies"---and there's not a lot of interaction there. So I've started to change the direction---dinner AND a movie. Doing things together---especially things that she loves doing (like the dog show stuff). And I think that we're making more progress again.<P>I'm sure that you're like me: you'd like to have an open discussion on this, figure out what you're NOT doing that you could be, try to get a plan in place (with little X's on the calendar, if necessary), and execute the plan.<P>I've tried that approach, and it's not been particularly effective. Part of this stems from the fact that when my wife started counseling with Steve (and doing the marriagebuilder stuff), she was fully into the affair. She still has negative associations with Steve and with some of the MB stuff (forms, plans---you know, the "analytical" stuff). We have had discussions. She acknowledges the problem, says that she wants to work on it---not for her sake, but for mine. But then there's no plan. I do think she's working on it---but I'm never sure (because I can miss the signs). And when she is working on it, and I miss the teeny steps---well, there's another problem.<P>I like having a plan, because you can both assess the effectiveness, and you're both aware of what the other's responsibilities are (and you can use positive feedback---instead of whining about no sex at the end of the week). But we don't yet have a plan---and I found that when I pushed her for a plan, I pushed her away from intimicy.<P>So, really go over YOUR performance with the Four Rules in detail. Very critically. Try to figure out where YOU'RE maybe not quite 100% there. My guess is for most of us, the 15 hrs/week requirement is "impossible". Make it possible (even though we're only probably up to 10). <P>I think you're on the right path. You just have to give it TIME...<P>

That's it!!! LOCK and LOAD!!! <BR>BANG - BANG - BANG!!! <P>You've given me some homework to do and I will certainly work on improving the time together (no kids) part of our relationship. I'm guessing we are pretty close to the 15 hours a week (maybe a little under that) even with a house full of kids. We try to go out once a week for a date but that doesn't always happen. I also know what you mean about making it more than a movie. Sometimes a dinner and a movie is a little long so, if we don't do that, we stop at Starbucks or DQ after the movie to sit and talk a while. <P>I'm also trying to get her to other events; concerts, museums, dancing etc. Funny thing is she tried to get me to go dancing for 20 years and finally gave up. Now I'm tryiung to get her to go. we have a week long vacation coming up; just the two of us. Kids are all going to their grandparents (God help them) for the week. This will be the first time we've done a vacation alone together in almost 15 years. <P>I do think part of my wife's lack of desire is the meds. She doesn't want to give them up right now and she panics when the bottle is running low. I imagine she has a lot of things to sort out in her mind and her meds are a way to cope with it right now. <P>Can you tell me how you evaluate or score your four areas. Is that information located somewhere on this website or in one of Harley's book?<P>Your wife sounds a lot like mine. And we seem to be doing pretty much the same things to heal our marriage. I'll continue on my journey, stay focused with my plan, and analyze my performance a little better. <P>My counselor said the same thing you told me - I'm doing all the right things just give it more of that four letter word....I can't even write it anymore . Thanks K.<P><B>ceecee</B><BR>I responded to your thread - thanks for popping in <P><B>Sheba</B><BR>Sorry I had to shoot K. I told him NOT to use that four letter word around me and he did it anyway! He's OK - he had a kevlar vest on.<P>I'm doing OK. The rollercoaster has leveled out a bit and I am not as easily affected by mood swings. I know my wife has a lot to sort out and she knows I'm there for her if she needs me. As the days pass, I feel more and more like we are going to make it. Trust is still a very difficult thing for me, but that's improving too. I'm still growing through this. We're getting along better and I hope that continues to improve. If we could resolve the "dry spell" issue, I would give serious thought to changing my name to Sir Happy Alot or Sir Gets Alot or ....(I've got other ones, but you don't want to hear them ).<P>I know you being a Warrior Princess is a tough job and very time consuming, so when you get a minute drop me an Email. <BR> <BR>SHA<P>P.S. HEY! I just noticed I crossed the 1000 posts level. Am I in a club now? <P>------------------<BR>There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved.

SHA:<P>If your wife is willing to do the EN/LB forms (or if she's done them before, and is willing to review recent performance), then that'll help. But my wife is clearly allergic to the MB forms, so I just sit down and try to go over the areas objectively. I may ask my wife for input as well on certain issues.<P>It really does sound like you're doing pretty well---I know that you want it fixed now. But the hope is that when this part of our marriages are fixed, our wives will be thinking "Gee---I really missed this"---that'll be the acid test.<P>I think when you get to 1000, you ought to be "clubbed". That'll teach you for shooting me! I just checked on my count and I'm over 2500. Ugh---I ought to see if I can get a discounted rate for Steve (who will tell me that "I'm doing everything right" and "Give it more TIME"). Maybe not...

Well it's not just women betrayers...Just wanted to add that. Men do it too. Use the old line it's not you I'm just not interested stuff. We don't have kids so that's not the problem. Time is it. (Don't shoot) I have noticed that when we spend quality interactive time he is more inclined to round the bases. Spend a week at work and come home doing nothing more than watch tv...he shifts uncomfortably at the mention of anything sexual. It's been getting better though. Let's make a pact. The first one to figure this out lets the rest of us know...<BR>Ha Ha Ha. Has Steve noticed this pattern in recovering relationships?

Just a thought....<P>When I feel beautiful (new clothes, hairdo, etc.), I feel more confident.<P>Maybe encourage a personal shopping spree? Just a thought.<P>Peekin back out....

<BR>I couldn't pass this up. I don't really have a question, just wanted to throw out a "me too!"<P>My wife got her instructions from the same place, no doubt about it. No sex. Not interested. At all.<P>She'll let me hug her, and she'll pat my back. I rub her back nearly every morning and night. She seems to appreciate it. She actually asked me to rub her feet last night which of course I cheerfully did. But it never goes any further.<P>No drugs in my situation, but if she'd go to the doc they would probably put her on antidepressants in a heartbeat. <P>My wife has MB allergies too...she read "His Needs, Her Needs" and tried to get my attention with it. When it didn't work, she shredded the book in anger. Yes, I know how badly I hurt her. I'm still struggling mightily with LB's, but it's been a moving target.<P><BR>Slightly Sane<BR>

K,<BR>Hi pal. Maybe,just maybe, I might have some insight for you.<P>I think you are dead on when you say that your wife does not want to have sex with anyone. I feel exactly the same way. Right now, I cringe at the thought of ever being touched by a man in the foreseeable future. I know why it is true for me. Maybe this will help you understand your wife. <P>It is more than just being afraid of being hurt by love. That is a big part. In my case, it is fear of being out of control. It is a fear of being tricked in the name of "love". You see, when I cheated, I violated everything I ever believed about myself. I completely lost myself. My identity (or what I thought was my identity) was wiped away. <P>I associate that with sex. I associate every manipulative thing a guy ever does with sex.<P>It is very good that you have disassociated your loving actions from sex. In my case, it will take a very long time (maybe never) for any man to convince me that he loves me for me, and not to just "get some", or use me for some other purpose. Every thing you do that shows your wife that you love her for her (not just to get something from her) has to help.<P>Another thing. If she feels half as bad as I do about what happened, it is likely that she believes that she doesn't deserve to be loved. Then, all the loving things you do seem even more manipulative because she doesn't feel she has earned it, in a way. <P>The Harley stuff turns me off sometimes too. I'm the analytical type and generally like lists and plans too. I think what turns me off is that it seems so contrived sometimes. It really goes against how alot of us are brought up to think about "love". Habits, needs, ugh. Sometimes it is just too much to think about. Where is the magic, serendipity, the ah-hah! experience in all of these to-do-lists that Harley has? Now that you have all these lists and plans, it could appear that you are trying to break her down. Of course, in a way, you are. The trick is to convince her that it is in her benefit and that she will be safe. <P>In my case, I know that there is no such thing as "safe". Life holds no guarantees, right? So I'd rather be untouched and alone, than risk going through anything as painful as what I've just been through. As lonely and painful as my solitude can be, it is not half as bad as what I went through with my ex's.

Had to add this...<P>I wasn't always this way. When I was married, no lie, I could count on one hand the number of times I turned my ex-H down in 8 years. Sex was never used as a weapon. After an argument, I'd even encourage it so that we could feel closer. To my ex's benefit, there was always tons of affection outside the boudoir as well. Now I've changed into this totally frigid thing. Interesting...

Student:<P>I hope to hell this wasn't meant to cheer me up <P>I pretty much agree with what you've said. My wife also has issues about how she was raised to view sex (and husband/wife relationships). Because the affair was 'taboo', she was able to explore that side of her safely (a very warped way of thinking---but I do understand). She can't do that as easily with me. <P>We also had a 'rocky' start in our courtship. I was interested in another woman, and my wife said to her friend when she first saw me:<P>"That's the guy I'm going to marry" <P>She had to work for it. And I was honest about my feelings for the other woman, and this hurt her (but didn't deter her from "meeting my needs" to make me fall in love with her). And she holds some resentment for that---I think she associates the aggressiveness she pursued me with with the way I'd want my needs met (which is true), and she associates that with a competition with another woman (which she didn't enjoy).<P>I'm also concerned with the "guilt" aspect. Especially with a child that has the potential to remind her of the affair every day of her life. She tends to live more in the past than I do, and this affects her more. I look at Noah and delight in him. But I commented last night about his beautiful eyes---there's a touch of hazel in those baby blues---and I was sitting outside looking into them as we were swapping ice cubes in and out of each other's mouth from a glass of icewater (yuk!). And her comment was that it was probably "that stray genetic material" (we're both blue-eyed), and I'm sure she felt bad. And guilty.<P>I wish I could take the pain of the past away from her. But as you indicate (as does Steve), the best plan is a consistant track record of demonstrating the kind of love she needs, for her best interests, over a long time.<P>So that's the plan. And I've done other things in the past (whine, complain, lovebust, punish), and I know that they don't work. So I'm comfortable with it... I just wish those seeds would hurry up and grow!<P>I hear you on the issue with the "Harley" methodology too. But romantic love is a process (highly unromantic view, isn't it?). Go read my post to grandpabri---I'm trying to help him focus his efforts there---I think he'll be successful more quickly if he does.<P>God bless.

SHA,<BR>I too am not getting any sex. I feel that we are well on our way to recovery. Yet, I know my W's problem is that she has been hurt so many times that it is not funny. The OM hurt her in a way that I never have nor ever will do: he cheated on her with another OW as well as probably still having sex with his W.<P>I was saddened the other day when I was looking through her notebook and found that she has been scribbling someone else's name who also is a Robert. Her behavior has gone back to that which she has exhibited with all the other affairs. <P>I am doing all the nice things: massages that get very close to being interpreted as sexual, sending my I love you pages 945683968911911911, gave her money to have her hair done, buying perfume, letting her sleep on the couch without bugging her, etc. I just keep praying that God will open her heart soon. I am not balking at my relationship with Hi developing at a rapid pace but I long the intimacy. It seems like I am going through a second puberty thing: my sex drive is as high as it was then.<P>Hang in there, it will get better. I beleive that guilt is also playing a factor though not much. I know she, my W, is trying to protect herself because she really has been hurt a lot. I will be here as long as God gives me strength and the desire to serve her as Jesus server the church.<P>MONDO HUG my friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

<B>TheStudent</B><BR>I really appreciate your insight. Everything you stated seems to fit so well. I remember early on in my Plan A efforts, my wife was angry at me for turning over a new leaf. She actually asked me to go back to the way I used to be (when I didn't cherish her as I do now). I believe she was able to cope with my former self much easier.<P>She is now my focus in life. My consistant efforts to cherish, honor, praise, communicate, touch, and love her all I can for the past 18 months has helped me to become her friend again and we are closer than we have been in many years.<P>During some of my frustrating times, my counselor asked me why I was doing all I am. He said if I'm doing it to "get" something in return, then I better stop because she won't return the love I am providing. But, if I'm doing it because I love her, then I should keep going full speed ahead. That simplistic statement made an impact on me. I was doing some things to try and make her love me. But, for the most part I do what I do because I love her. <P>I think my wife is afraid of being hurt by me again. I am as guilty as the next guy for saying and doing dumb things. Thankfully, my eyes have been opened, and I am now hypersensitive to love busting behavior. <P>Early on, she completely locked me out emotionally. I've learned that the path back to her heart is through many, many locked doors. As the days pass, she will feel a little more comfortable or safe with me and allow me to pass though one of those doors. But, there are so many. And, as you stated, a lot of time must pass coupled with consistent loving behavior on my part to continue to pass back through those doors. <P>I just wanted to thank you for helping me understand what my wife is going through. It's so easy for us guys to feel rejected right now in our recovery process. Not only do we want to be our wife's best friend, we want to be their lover too. Perhaps when enough time passes - we will.<BR> <BR><B>To the rest of you guys in the same boat</B>- with summer appraoching, the cold showers will feel a little more tolerable. Let's all continue to unlock the doors to our wives hearts, one at a time.<P>SHA

K,<P>Sounds like you understand your wife pretty well. I know my message wasn't real cheerful. My situation is different than your wife's. You have some history of meeting her needs, so you have a much,much bigger chance of breaking through than some random guy does with me. <P>SHA and the other guys,<BR>It sucks. Just the thing guys seem to need the most to feel loved, is the thing that women have a hard time doing at times like this (sex). And the same goes for men (affection. Keep up the good work. It sounds like you are doing alot of good things!

The Student, <P>What you said about how you felt after your affair makes so much sense. Just this morning when my husband made a racy comment to me, I looked at him and said, "Is this all you guys ever want?" <P>Now this comment obviously speaks more of me and what I just went through than it does about men. I am newly in recovery, and I still experience flashbacks to what sex was like with the OM. This makes me feel guilty and used simultaneously. Although the OM I was with never intended for me to feel this way, it was what happened. We used and manipulated each other, and so much of that manipulation occurred around sex. As a result, when my husband makes advances, I associate his advances in the light of everything that happened over the past four months. Then, I start to feel really guilty, because, on top of already having hurt my husband's self-esteem through the affair, I am also denying him one of the things that helps him feel loved, appreciated, and fulfilled in our relationship. This is not to say we do not have sex. We have it. The desire for it comes and goes, and I get very frustrated. Knowing, however, that others can identify helps. <P>I also feel hope when I see how much my husband is willing to work at everything. I am amazed that he wants to at all after everything that has happened.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>K,<P>Sounds like you understand your wife pretty well. I know my message wasn't real cheerful. My situation is different than your wife's. You have some history of meeting her needs, so you have a much,much bigger chance of breaking through than some random guy does with me. <P>SHA and the other guys,<BR>It sucks. Just the thing guys seem to need the most to feel loved, is the thing that women have a hard time doing at times like this (sex). And the same goes for men (affection. Keep up the good work. It sounds like you are doing alot of good things! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>TheStudent,<BR>I can relate to everything you said because my W was hurt when she did not get support when she was molested as a child. Now she has been hurt by most recent OM and is more than likely applying all the things that you said. However, I found another Robert scribbled in her notebook that says she is on the prowl again. She is looing for comfort that can only be found in a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus. I know that I caome across as a self righteous blow hard that wants to be seen as a martyr. But I am none of those things. I love my W because God loves her. He brought me into her life to show her that someone really cares.<P>I only want her to have what she is seeking. I can't give it to her. ONly Jesus can. I can't say that I had anything to do with my being still with her other than I chose to obey God's request that I do His will. I love her because He loves her, you all, and lastly me. I feel the pain that she is going through and want nothing more than to be able to alleviate it for her. But she is the only one who can change that. I can only be here to help her as God gives me ability to be there for her.<BR><P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K:<BR><B>SHA:<P>You just have to give it TIME...<P> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know I'm jumping on this a little late, but I've heard this more times than I care to count. Time may heal her wounds, but it cuts mine even deeper.<P>

{{{{{{{{{{{{{nad}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Hang in there!!! If you don't already hate the phrase "it takes time", you will soon...<BR>but it does get better!

Professorg,<P>I hear you. Even though I don't share your belief in the diety of Jesus (he is still an inspiration to me, however), I think I get the gist.<P>It is good that you can stand outside your wife's actions and see her for the hurting person she is. Being molested at a young age is very devastating. I was never molested, but was a victim of attempted murder at age 14 by, yes, a man I had trusted. Bless you for helping your wife with her burden.<P>