Guys,<BR> I'm writing this in the friendly letter style that we all learned about in grade achool in hopes to take you back there or at least high school. Girls don't like too much of a bow down kinda of guy. When you were dating what was the thing that attracted your wife to you? Was it your kindness, assertiveness, security, leadership, your control of yourself? <P> All of you guys seem so sincere in your efforts and I admire the fact that you all have made extreme attempts to accomodate your wives. Those of you that have had affairs..... have your wives achieved true emotional closure and determined that she wants the relationship to continue?<P> If so, then try to move some of the focus off meeting her every whim because as cruel as it may read, some women revel in just that. I know there are many, many that do not! Just don't forget what it was about you that drove your wife crazy. I'll bet it will still turn her on.<P> My h and I share one of the most powerful connections both mentally and especially sexually! The mental connection definitely intensifies the sexual. <P> Are you letting your wife know how much being near her turns you on? The following day do you ever walk by her and maybe whisper something like, "You are one h--- of a woman. You drive me crazy! What did I do to deserve last night. I'm so lucky to have you. Most men only dream about having women like you,etc. My h always does and that in turn will cause me to pause for a moment and reflect on the most intense moments. Then I can't wait for the next encounter. But keep in mind my h is definitely doing the right things but then again so am I.<P> If all else fails try a "little wine" to help set the mood and don't forget music. Maybe some not all, of their depression is coming from not seeing to it that their personal needs are met. By that I mean having sex when they want to. I'm just guessing and that is obvious but my h and I have an understanding that when one of us wants sex we're there for each other, even if we're in an unsettling time in our marriage we recognize it for what it is...a temporary situation.<P> Good luck fellows and remember what attacted your wife to you?

You know what?<P>There isn't a 'one size fits all' kind of solution to this situation. I was molested when I was nine years old. I was a betrayer. I was betrayed. I had a weight problem and hated my body. I had a medical problem that made sex painful at one time... BUT... I love sex. Sex was never my problem - well, except the frequency of it, which was never often enough. <P>I relate to what The Student says about wondering if a man wants me just for sex, but that doesn't stop me from wanting it. I can't imagine being celibate, but that's just me. Aside from a medical problem, sex is something I will continue to enjoy for the rest of my life. <P>With that in mind, I don't think you can pinpoint the reason why your W's don't want sex. You can guess, you can reason, you can ask, but the bottom line is that it is something *within them* that is keeping them away. <P>With all due respect, I have a theory. I think your W's began withholding out of guilt, fear or anger, and then it became a habit, and now it would be awkward to have sex with you. I know it was that way with David and I. In the last five years, we never went a whole week without it at least twice, even when we only saw eachother on weekends (it was much more frequent in the early years of our marriage). After my affair, the sex dwindled, and we still tried for once a week, but after his latest affair, it got down (no pun intended) to maybe twice a month, if that. We both said that it was almost embarrassing to get undressed in front of eachother, let alone 'let go' enough to enjoy sex with eachother. I don't know if this makes sense to you, but in my experience, it just gets easier to avoid it as time passes without it...<P>Thanks for letting me add my two cents worth... I don't read or post much anymore, but can't pass up a question for K <P><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited May 07, 2000).]

NB,<P>I still want sex too, just not willing to put up with all the other B.S. that goes with it. Also not willing to let some guy use me for sex and call it "love" till he finds someone better or his priorities change. Just wait. Once you get out on the dating scene a little while, you'll see what I'm talking about. All the stupid, insincere things guys will do to get a piece. Most of it is forgiveable, because half the time the guys actually believe what they are saying when they do stuff like that. Then, if things "don't work out", they certainly don't feel too bad. They got theirs, if ya know what I mean. I work with all men, so I get to hear all the stuff they don't tell their girlfriends.<P>Women do the same thing (are dishonest in order to get what they want), but it is not to get sex usually. I'm a little easier on women, because being a gold-digger won't end a man's life (like AIDS would). I'm sure the man would still feel used, but no permanent damage is done.

Hi The Student,<P>Thing is, sweetie, you've said that you will be celibate FOREVER, didn't you? I thought so, and if I'm wrong, PLEASE correct and forgive me.<P>Yes, I remember well how it was when I dated, and sex seemed paramount to 99% of the guys I dated. Difference was, it was paramount *<B>to me</B>* too. I, at times, felt very used, but **<B>I used</B>** too!! It was the 70's, after all .<P>The whole thing for me is that people <B>use</B> people for all sorts of things. Sex is one of them, money is another, to produce children is perhaps another... there are many, many ways. It would be nice to have a non-manipulative relationship wtih someone, one where we could be ourselves in all our humanness and be accepted totally, warts and all. It's a once in a lifetime thing (if that). I happen to want to continue trying to find it... <BR>

This is a fascinating thread!<P>Both H and I had affairs. H and I began our relationship with an extremely passionate courtship, but through the years, built up resentments and what I now perceive to have been erosion from lack of openness, honesty and communication, our sex life all but ceased completely. It was not uncustomary for us to go 6-8 months without <I>doing it.</I> And when I say "doing it," I mean exactly that. Not much passion, not much intimacy, just me <I>allowing</I> him to reach a climax and then the both of us rolling over and going to sleep. No kissing, no foreplay, no after play either. It got to the point where I actually felt <I>awkward</I> having sex with him, and I'm sure he had to have felt this too. Well, years of this eventually led to both of us seeking intimacy elsewhere. <P>The thing that has continued to bother me is that even through all of our rebuilding and re-establishing a stronger marriage than we'd ever had before, the sexual intimacy still is not there. We do make love fairly regularly. Well, let's just say we don't allow ourselves to go more than a month without, and usually it's closer to once every 1-2 weeks or so. The love making is pleasant and even pleasurable, but it's still not <I>there</I> yet. The raw passion, intensity and openness, for me, is still lacking. When we first <I>start,</I> I still feel somewhat awkward and am not really able to passionately kiss or respond to him the way I wish I could. I know he's primed and ready, but I'm still not. I know he wishes I would do <I>more</I>, but like you all, he's been very, very patient with me. Thing is, I'm beginning to feel really guilty, and not only guilty, but inadequate too. I know that he really enjoyed how sexually expressive OW was with him, so I know I'm falling way short. He also knows I was able to be very sexually expressive with OM, but continue to have difficulty doing so with him. I don't know what it is, but I just haven't been able to <I>make</I> this go away. I know it has to be a mental block of some sort that is preventing me from fully giving in, but I don't know what else either of us can do. <P>It's been 2 years of filling each other's love banks, openly and honestly communicating, spending all of our free time together, and our relationship is stronger and more loving than ever before, but no passionate love making. Is it really a time issue here or should we all just start to <I>accept</I> that this is the way our love making will always be? Does it sound like maybe we need a sex therapist? Would anyone here who's been to one care to share exactly what it is that a sex therapist does? Since our <I>problem</I> isn't <I>mechanical</I>, would we still be candidates?

NB,<BR>I think I offended you. It did sound like I was giving you a lecture, and I apologize. <P>Yes, I do intend to be celibate the rest of my life. It is not because I don't like sex though. My other values/needs take higher precedence.<P>My sister has had sex with perhaps 3 men her entire life. After her divorce, she dated a doctor. Didn't have sex with him until after about 6 months, he said he loved her, etc,etc. The first time she had sex with him, she contracted a particularly virulent herpes virus. Without daily medication, she suffers from painful outbreaks every month. She later found out that he knew he had herpes beforehand.<P>I consider myself very blessed. My first husband slept with numerous prostitutes from all over the world and contracted herpes a month after our divorce. I had unprotected sex with the OM. Amazingly, I'm disease free. The way I see it, I've used up all of my lucky chits. My need to protect whatever is left of my emotional and physical health is what keeps me celibate.<P>Being celibate has been incredibly effective at weeding out men I wouldn't even want as a friend. Lots of guys can turn on the charm (and do try, bless their hearts) when they've got a goal in mind. Once it is clear that it is going nowhere, though, I find out really quick the ones who like me as a person. Maybe they are just more patient, who knows? Just more info for my little experiment. Ok, so I'm using them too. I'm using them to see if men and women really can be friends without having sex. I'm using them to disconnect from my hormones. And I'm using them for guilt/baggage free companionship. <P>I know you are a big girl. No more lectures from me. Just be safe please. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 07, 2000).]

Student,<P>Oh no, honey, I wasn't in the LEAST BIT offended!!!!!<P>It takes more than THAT! <P>Remember, I respect you loads... no problemo!!!!<P>Take care!

To cendee:<P>Your response was interesting because it mirrors so closely what I think my wife may be feeling. Your final comment about your being amazed that your husband still wants to try is the same thing my wife tells me. I keep telling her it's my love for her that inspires me to try, but I just don't think she believes it yet. Hopefully, you can believe your husband if he's telling you something similiar. <P>She's still seeing the OM, but says nothing physical has happened in months. I imagine this in itself explains much of her continued guilt. We had started having sex in Febuary, 3 months after D-day, but 2 weeks ago, we abruptly stopped again. She said that despite her efforts to block out thoughts of the OM during sex, it's been becoming increasingly harder for her to do so. She also feels guilty about having hurt my feelings. I agreed with her decision to stop for now. I told her that I want sex with her to come from mutual desire and not from habit or loyalty. <P>To new_woman:<P>I too am concerned that assuming my wife ends her affair and we can make it into recovery, that she will have a difficult time overcoming her guilt and regaining raw passion, intensity and openness that we used to share. I hope you can find a way to overcome your guilt. I've been encouraging my wife to seek counselling, which she's agreed to do. We tried joint counselling and made some progress, but I really think she has some deep seated issues that just meeting her EN's isn't going to satisfy. I'm hoping talking to someone one-on-one will be beneficial for her.

<BR>There is something to be said about the awkwardness of it too. I like that. The first time we made love after disclosure was mechanical. downright let's get it over with. I read that in After the Affair so expected it a bit. It's gotten less awkward and more intimate as we have gone on, but the uneasiness my husband feels confuses me I guess. Guys are supposed to want it right? I know cookie cutter molds. Before the affair he didn't think we had enough. Now he doesn't want it very often at all. I didn't want it much before the affair. Boy, if we just got on the same page at the same time, I think we'd be sore. <P>I know time's the answer, but I think I'd feel better if I attached that word to my dart board and shot a few rounds off at it. Anyone for cricket?