You know during my marriage I <P>....worked at jobs I didn't want to do to put a husband through college and law school<BR>....raised two pretty good kids<BR>....did the laundry, cleaning, shopping and cooking<BR>....worked a full time job<BR>....did the mowing, yardwork, painting and house-repair all by myself.<P>And H, well he basically studied, read and watched TV, when he wasn't at work or working out at the gym.<P>Self-absorbed? Selfish? Maybe,but more then that he was missing-in-action. His life slipped away while he was unaware and one day he woke up and said "What's missing in my life?" I'm not getting my needs met. Who's to blame? Can't be me so must be W. Solution: Find someone to meet needs, i.e. OW. <P>He came awake when he was lacking and sought to meet his needs. But, where was he when my life was taking place...certainly not participating...or contributing...he was just there...someone who yelled when he was irritated, complained when he didn't have fresh clothes or his suits weren't pressed, spoiled all of our fun times with his temper, didn't believe in gift giving, birthdays, or Christmas, someone to walk around on eggshells....yet we loved and put up with him.<P>Then he left to live with a barfly "who lights up his life" and my life will never be the same. And it's all my fault. I guess I was just too selfish.<P><BR>Buffy<P><BR> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited May 26, 2000).]

We seem to be over-analyzing this "selfishness" thing at this point.<P>When you think about it, just about anything you do can be said to be selfish. What if you build a great marriage and you do everything you possibly can to make your mate happy. Isn't that a selfish action because you're doing it for your own happiness? Oh, yes, you're doing it for him or her, but it makes you happy to make your spouse happy, so again, isn't it selfish?<P>I'm just being a little facetious here, to try to make a point. Yes, I think selfishness is at the root of so many of our problems, marital or otherwise, but I think that's fairly well established and doesn't need to be beaten to death... It also doesn't need to be used as a tool to jab at either betrayers or betrayeds.<P>The important thing, to me, is that recovering a marriage requires unselfishness from both. Each person has to learn to put their spouse's needs and happiness ahead of their own, even if it's not what they "feel" like doing.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Contrite:<BR><B>We seem to be over-analyzing this "selfishness" thing at this point.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Perhaps. You have a good point that a recovering marriage needs two unselfish people to make it work, but I think the reason for the thread is that betrayeds need to have their feelings acknowledged. The betrayers generally don't see themselves as selfish. When betrayeds are dealing with so many issues of "you did this, this, this, and this, and I'm STILL trying," for betrayeds to acknowledge their selfishness is an important consession. It might seem petty, but it is really important. I would simply die if my H said, "I was selfish. I wasn't thinking about you or the future, only my immediate needs." those words would be a wonderful gift. I would finally feel heard.

Catnip,<BR>"It seems as if you have become the forum's self-appointed "hypocracy cop" who comes to the forum to 'bust' the betrayeds for your perception of their self-righteousness. You practically admitted as much as a way to deal with your issues and indirectly retaliate to your husband's justifications."<P>Yep. You are absolutely right. By doing so, this place is, arguably, a safer place for betrayers to come to. The betrayed here have plenty of outlets/resources for their frustrations. Betrayers who come here are very often told how mean, evil, selfish, lying, callous, they are. For what purpose? So that some betrayed can take their pound of flesh from them, a pound of flesh they aren't getting from their spouses? The only betrayers who come here KNOW that infidelity is wrong. <P>The message that is constantly drilled into betrayers heads is personal responsibility. Ok. I'll accept that. But I'll also insist on the same from betrayeds. Getting on here and taking a "holier than thou" attitude is not in the best interest of the betrayed, in the long run.<P>You might also notice that I've gotten on the occasional betrayer a few times who is thinking about cheating or is continuing an affair. <P>Mrs. O, <BR>It is false to assume that betrayers set out to hurt their spouse. I did not set out to hurt my ex. I knew that cheating would end our marriage, but he had also told me that even having feelings for someone else would end our marriage, and moving him again would end our marriage (I'd only moved him once in 8 yrs, and that was to go to school), and the list goes on. He didn't love me, and I'm pretty sure the only thing that was hurt is his pride. Losing me? Small beans. <P>New-beginning,<BR>You said:<BR>"I have been told on this very forum that we have been playing a game of revenge. I was not seeking revenge. I was trying to feel better. I never saw myself as selfish because I was so emotionally broken that I wasn't thinkingclearly. Call is justification if you want, but I don't see it that way. People have affairs for all sorts of reasons, all of them wrong. But it does happen, and it's not always because someone is selfish."<P>My point exactly. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 26, 2000).]

I'm sorry this post has turned out so argumentative.<P>I have said before that I am not in any way trying to place "Ultimate Blame"<P>I do fear though that my H's selfishness and the importance he puts on physical appearance makes him much more likely to have an affair.<P>If I'm going to ultimately have to start my life over on my own I would rather do it now than to go through his infedility again in the future.

The real answer to it all is to be selfish while being selfless. We are being selfish when we seek our salvation while being selfless through serving ALL others as Jesus was selfless for us in that He died on the cross for our sins.<P>It is NOT about receiving. It is about GIVING. We have gotten to focused on RECEIVING (getting our PERCEIVED needs met) rather than serving as Jesus served. We need to allow Jesus to continue to mold us into His image.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

Professorg,<BR>Thank you for reminding us that there is a higher purpose and a better reason for doing things than just "meeting needs". I have something for you, something I keep on my fridge:<P>"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our Light, not our Darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you NOT to be? You are a child of God. You playing small does not serve the World. There is nothing enlightening about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It is not just in some of us: It is in everyone. And as we let our own Light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."<P>-Nelson Mandela, 1994 Inaugural Speech<P>Professorg, thank you for letting your light shine. Both here and to your wife, who can't see the glory of God that is within her right now. <P>This is what I forgot when I cheated. That no matter what my H said or did to me, no matter how low, ugly, or awful he thought I was, that I am a child of God and worthy of love and beautiful in "his" eyes. When I was broken down, ashamed, fearful, less than human because of my ex-H's words, I forgot that he was only one person. One person who'd squash a rose if it pricked him...<P>"These roses under my window make no reference to former roses or to better ones;they are for what they are; they exist with God to-day. There is no time to them. There is simply the rose; it is perfect in every moment of its existence. Before a leaf-bud has burst, its whole life acts; in the full-blown flower there is no more; in the leafless root there is no less. Its nature is satisfied, and it satisfies nature, in all moments alike. But man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time"<P>-Self-Reliance - Emerson

The important thing, to me, is that recovering a marriage requires unselfishness from both. Each person<BR> has to learn to put their spouse's needs and happiness ahead of their own, even if it's not what they<BR> "feel" like doing.<BR>____________________________________________<BR>Your post is so familiar in many ways - but the problem here is I was forced to continue in my career and life, alone - as my husband was building his career and never there, and now, in order to not be seen as selfish in our marriage - I must give up all of the work I have put into my career? <P>I love my husband and want our marriage to work, but I am not willing to give up all of the work I have put into my profession to get to where I am. In order to fill his needs - I would have to stop everything I have built over the years, and spend the rest of my days catering to him.... that is what he wants. <P>It's not going to happen and I really don't know what the future holds. I am willing to compromise - but he is not - it's his way or no way. <P>I hope the couselor can help him - but I am not willing to forgive everything I am and have earned at this point in my life. I have lived 16 years of this marriage alone - waiting for my husband to have time to spend on our marriage - while I was waiting - I built an International Non-Profit Corporation. I have alot to do yet and need to finish what I started - there are alot of people that are counting on me. I can't be totally unselfish without giving up everything. I'm not willing to do that on the hope that my husband will finally place me and or relationship first in his life - he hasn't so far.....

TheStudent,<BR>Thank you and to God be all the glory, honor, and praise for without Him I am nothing.<P>With each new day He is continually checking me which I humbly say yes Lord I was wrong to feel that way. I really do love my W because she is His gift to me. I would marry her even knowing that she would treat me the way she has because she is God's gift to me. I chose my XGF. He chose my W. I only want her to know the JOY that my soul experiences. I focus on those things that are eternal because the temporary discomfort I experience now will go away forever.<P>I am atively seeking the best way to communicate with her without repeating myself. It is quite difficult because that is how I got her to understand what I was saying early in our marriage. She is now aware when I am saying something from a slightly different angle but the core concept is still the same. I guess that I have rubbed off on her over the past almost 15 years.<P>I know God resides in her because that is the part I have always appealed to. I know it exists because she is still with me. She may be a little confused but I would hope that she would have the same amount of compassion if I lost my head for about 7 years.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

Genesforme,<P>What came to my mind in reading your post was the POJA - part of the process involves brainstorming creatively for ideas and compromises. Of course, that assumes BOTH parties are willing to go through the process and work out a compromise!<P>I can certainly understand your unwillingness to give up an entire, successful career for a man who hasn't indicated he's willing to give that same level of commitment. As I mentioned, I believe unselfishness is required of both parties - I certainly can't imagine throwing all my other priorities and commitments to the winds if my husband were not willing to meet me halfway!<P>As you said, hopefully the counselor can help... My best wishes for a successful resolution to your situation.<P>~Lori~

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by genesforme:<BR><B>The important thing, to me, is that recovering a marriage requires unselfishness from both. Each person<BR> has to learn to put their spouse's needs and happiness ahead of their own, even if it's not what they<BR> "feel" like doing.<BR>____________________________________________<BR>Your post is so familiar in many ways - but the problem here is I was forced to continue in my career and life, alone - as my husband was building his career and never there, and now, in order to not be seen as selfish in our marriage - I must give up all of the work I have put into my career? <P>I love my husband and want our marriage to work, but I am not willing to give up all of the work I have put into my profession to get to where I am. In order to fill his needs - I would have to stop everything I have built over the years, and spend the rest of my days catering to him.... that is what he wants. <P>It's not going to happen and I really don't know what the future holds. I am willing to compromise - but he is not - it's his way or no way. <P>I hope the couselor can help him - but I am not willing to forgive everything I am and have earned at this point in my life. I have lived 16 years of this marriage alone - waiting for my husband to have time to spend on our marriage - while I was waiting - I built an International Non-Profit Corporation. I have alot to do yet and need to finish what I started - there are alot of people that are counting on me. I can't be totally unselfish without giving up everything. I'm not willing to do that on the hope that my husband will finally place me and or relationship first in his life - he hasn't so far.....</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>genesforme,<BR>What you espouse is nothing more than what God has told us is. Yet, we choose not to listen to HIm by not reading His word. In order to know Him we have to let Him talk through reading His word. I am on my second year of read the Bible through in a year. I am finding many answers to all those questions I had. He is opening my eyes continually with each new moment. If you know Him well tehn it will become more apparent. Sometimes He doesn't give us the answer we want when we want it.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

To Tired LuLu,<P>You know what? It's okay for these posts to be a little "argumentative"....as long as we allow each other our differing points of view and don't put each other down. We all have a point of view on this based on our experiences, etc. There is no way we are all gonna agree. I welcome the differences because they allow me to see the situation thru another's eyes. I may disagree, but that's okay. The differeing viewpoint still gets considered.<P>I hope that we can continue this open, honest discussion and not think that AGREEMENT is really our goal. The goal of these forums IS to share our opinions and thoughts regardless of whether others agree or not. If we all agreed, what would be the point of the forum??<P>So let's keep the communcation open and just remember that in our postings as in our relationships, LB's aren't cool. We are, after all, brothers and sisters.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O

Great post, Mrs. O. Hard to keep that in mind sometimes. I have always been guilty myself of trying to bring everyone over to my opinion (it MUST be the only right one, right?? ) I'm getting better at it, but thanks for reminding us all!

What you espouse is nothing more than what God has told us is. Yet, we choose not to listen to HIm by<BR> not reading His word. In order to know Him we have to let Him talk through reading His word. I am on<BR> my second year of read the Bible through in a year. I am finding many answers to all those questions I<BR> had. He is opening my eyes continually with each new moment. If you know Him well tehn it will become<BR> more apparent. Sometimes He doesn't give us the answer we want when we want it.<P> ------------------<BR> God Bless,<BR> Rob<BR> regilmor@swbell.net <BR>_____________________________________________<P>God is my only guide through this time.. The pain has been so deep that in order to survive - I follow his guidance. He just hasn't shown me the answer yet- I am seeing what plays out in time. I have read the bible several times and my cousin is a minister... God just recently brought us together again and I think there is a reason for that...she has always been there when I hurt the most to help me through the tough times.<P>God brought me this man - I have a hard time believing it was the purpose of the pain I have receieved over the years from him...so now I wait to see where his next direction will lead us. I guess I just don't feel strongly in favor of continuing a marriage that has been so empty and hurtful. <P>All I do is pray every day to guide me through this...and he is - just more slowly then I need him to right now.

Student,<BR> What you quoted about not letting one person defining who you are is so true.It is so easy to catergorize a person.I dislike the thought of anyone(including my stbx)thinking they know everything about me.People are so full of false assumptions about others.<BR> He's a jerk,she's a b!tch,they're all idiots;it's so easy to do,isn't it?I think this can happen in a marriage,too.I'll never let anyone try to tell me who I am again.<BR> Make sense? Have a good day. --Murph