My stbx, Tired Lady, has been contantly asking me to read these topics so that I can understand myself and my actions better. While I can certainly empathize with so many of the people who write here, there needs to be a way to also communicate that all people who end their marriages (especially the men here) are not bad people.<P>I have been accused of being incapable of having human feelings or emotions. I know this isn't true. In fact, quite the contrary. (and Tired Lady knows this) If you recall from her own writing here, I repeatedly asked her to find counseling help with me. Over and over until you just can't do it anymore. For us, this process was over the span of 10 years. By her own recollection, and what she told our marriage counselor, she has felt unhappy with our marriage since the honeymoon was over - that would make it all 18 years of our marriage. That old saying is quite true for us, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". <P>I'm sure that there are alot of people who write here that are genuinely in a very "shocked" situation. That they didn't "see it coming". That their perception of their marriages were that of the relationship being "okay". In my marriage, our relationship was not "okay" and I made it known over and over and over that we were in trouble as a couple and we needed help.<P>Developing a relationship with a co-worker was not a planned event. Absolutely not. But I allowed it to happen. A fault of my being weak? I don't think I was weak. I know that I needed and wanted more from my marriage and after exhausting conversations with TL about "us" making changes to our relationship, I stopped trying. Sometimes you can't do anymore on your own.<P>I have a healthy and nurturing relationship with my children. I would never give that up. In fact, I have them more often that their mom, by her own choice. My kids mean the world to me. Mia knows that this is extremely important to me. She shares this same feeling about her own child. I'm definately not going to say that this is not difficult at times, because some of you are probably very aware it can be challenging give the circumstances and all the different personalities. But the difference here is that we are all talking, compromising, and making decisions together as a "family". Not always easy or simple. But we work at it. We are not living in a "fantasy" world. This is reality.<P>I want my stbx to be healthy, and happy. I cannot provide that happiness for her. She told me that herself. I wanted to express to everyone that not all persons who have been involved in an affair are indivduals who didn't try to make their own marriages work. Sometimes all the trying in the world won't make a difference. I'm certain that TL would agree with everything I've written.

Hi Exhausted Man -<P>I completely agree that not all people fit into neat little "categories". <P>Your situation was a very difficult one and TL knows what she contributed. As do you. All that can be done or expected of anyone is that they take the time and energy to really look at themselves and know that they gave it their all!!<P>I believe that you did....at least for as long as you could endure. TL knows it too!! It is TL who had some work to do and for whatever reasons she didn't or couldn't do it. ONLY SHE can figure out why and I pray everyday that she gets to the discovery of those "whys".<P>You are a good man...I have believed this all along. I only wish that a split was made before the affair with Mia. Would have been the right thing to do rather than having broken vows and devastation all around.<P>But, like a lot of people, we sometimes have to have something or someone to move on to. It is very scary to just give up what we have even if we don't like it and it is hurting us and just walk into the unknown without someone there to know we can be happy.<P>That, in itself, can be something that could hinder your own growth. I hope that you have taken a close look at why it was only when there was Mia that you finally became proactive (leaving) for what you wanted. You need to know for yourself and to understand how your thinking works. Was it better to just jump into another relationship? Would it have been of greater benefit to have had some "just you" time?<P>Only you and future events will tell. s long as you have dealt with any issues that needed attention about yourself than all should be well.<P>I hope it is EM, I really do. I think that you and TL are good people who lost something along the way and just couldn't find it. I hope that the happiness you seek and deserve (and TL also) is right around the corner.<P>Sorry, went off subject a bit there, didn't I? <P>I believe that a lot of affair situations are quite different than yours. Not to say that they are better or worse, for there is no such thing. Pain is pain is pain....deception is deception is deception.<P>What I am saying is that for many (and I do believe that this applies more to men than women betrayers only by the number of cases) the betraying spouse is avoiding something that is inside of themselves. Unlike your situation, they did not speak up or even have a grasp of what their problem was/is. They just weren't happy and found something to give them the "happiness" they sought.<P>There was no indication of why they were unhappy - no real problems that the wife created for them....they were just missing something. Rather than examine it with their spouse (or even themselves) they just ran.<P>Now it could be said that you "escaped" also with the way you got involved with OW.....and you did. But the difference is that you attempted to fix life in the "real world" before moving on to "happyland".<P>A lot (like my H) never do that and just do the running....this is where the "fantasy" comes into play. LIFE is not something to run from!!! YOU HAVE TO face it and deal......<P>So, when you see all the fantasy talk, this is how it applies. The "in-love" feelings, the acting like a wife (or husband!) don't exist, the acting like their own children don't exist or need them.....these are not behaviors of reality.<P>Would you agree?<P>Hugs to you,<P>Sheba

Exhausted Man,<P>I welcome you too, to the forum.<P>I don't know all of the details of your situation...<P>...are you still involved with the OW?<BR>...have you tried the principles of Dr. Harley?<BR>...counseling with Dr. Harley?<BR>...attempted to identify your and TL's <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>?<BR>...discussed a personal <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A>?<P>It is one thing to read about these "things"...<BR>...it is another to work on them.<P>The MB concepts aren't offering a "fantasy world" (that is what exists when an affair is continuing).<BR>The MB concepts <B>are</B> a reality! One where effort needs to be put in (sometimes for a long time)... before even the smallest results are seen.<P>I hear you about your children...<BR>My children are my world now too...<BR>...(my W left us almost 9 months ago)<BR>They are the ones that will be most affected...<BR>They are the ones that will wonder for the rest of their lives... why?<BR>Was the OP's pull so strong... to remove a parent from their lives?... to disrupt thier lives so?<P>Life is hard...<BR>...very hard.<P>The MB concept of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> and other plans are to give your marriage all possible chances to rebuild your marriage. <B>With a lot of hard work</B>! Aren't you kids worth it?<P>Maybe you can fill us in on the attempts you've seen fail..<BR>Let us know the status of affair...<BR>Tell of us changes (need to grow) in you, or in TL...<P>Don't just post once and go away...<BR>Stay and have a dialogue...<P>There are many like you... who have decided to stay... waywards...<P>You have my best wishes...<BR>You have my prayers too...<P> <P>Jim

Hi EM,<P>Hey, a few months ago I began a similiar thread that you might be interested in reading... and TL did post to it... here's a link for you:<P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000677.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000677.html</A> <P>I've emailed with TL, and I think we have shown each other the 'other' side of things... I was a betrayer, although I was also betrayed. I felt like TL at times, and I completely understood her pain and anger. On the other hand, I had to see that I too was capable of causing the kind of pain she's felt, and indeed my stbx H felt, when I had an affair. <P>I wish you happiness EM, and I certainly wish TL much happiness... perhaps neither of you will understand what the other felt until she finds someone herself... and even though you love another, when TL begins a life with another man, it will still touch you in the strangest, saddest ways... I truly believe that. You just can't have 20 years of history and toss it aside. I say this because I KNOW. <P>Best wishes!

The way that I see it....you are STILL in your affair....therefore, you ARE still in your fantasy.<P>You gave up on your marriage because Mia came into your life. It sounds like TL was finally ready to work on the marriage, but you gave up because you had a distraction.<P>Then, you used your 10 years of not being happy as an excuse to pursue this so-called love affair.<P>You are using this excuse to justify your actions.<P>Why didn't you divorce first before having an affair? That would have been the right thing to do.<P>I understand that you are separated from TL, but during that one year of being away from Mia....I don't believe that you were 100% committed towards trying to restore your marriage with TL.<P>It doesn't take 1 year to recover. You should have given it the chance that it deserved.

I'll stay and carry on a conversation for a while. Thank you for your input.<P>Sheba - you are a wise person. At the very least you can see and acknowledge that I did in fact try to fix things while we were still married and living together. And I did try the hardest after Mia left me to work things out with my stbx. TL knows all of this. And she has agreed with everything I have ever brought up that went wrong in our relationship. The difference is not that I stopped trying, rather she made a very conscience decision not to work with me to make things better.<P>NSR - Thanks for the welcome. I won't promise to post all the time but I'll continue this one with you. You asked me if I was still with OW - yes, now I am. But I no longer consider her the OW. TL and I are near the end of our divorce. Mia (the OP) basically left me about a year ago so that I could work on making the marriage work. Very little contact with the exception of certain projects that both of us has involvement in in one way or another. She actually removed herself from the ones where daily contact would be required so I could really have a chance to get TL to meet me half way in finding solutions to our problems.<P>What did I do that did or didn't work? Well, we went to counseling both alone and together. I let her chose the counselor. We saw 2 different ones until she felt comfortable. I stopped working overtime. One of her biggest gripes was that I was always working. But you all need to remember that TL doesn't work and she incurred a rather huge credit card debt unknown to me so I needed to work those hours to pay off the debt. We, counselor and I felt it only fair since she was the one who incurred the debt to at least work part time to help pay for it. She has yet to go back to work. She told us she hated the thought of having to work. She had been spoiled. So that part of negotiation didn't work. I began making "dates" with just her and I since the kids are both teens and can fend for themselves. At first it was fine, but after a while she began to always bring up the affair. I got old. I have answered all her questions till I'm blue in the face. Eventually the dates became dreaded time we spent together. So I guess that didn't work either. <P>NSR, in the end, it was ultimately TL who agreed that we should divorce. She began a vicious campaign againt Mia, at one point impersonating her and having her phone service disconnected. Not a very smart thing to do to someone with a small child. I know alot of her actions are as a result of her being hurt and angry, but irrationnal behavior is not something I look favorably at. I've forgotten if there is anything else I need to respond to you about - if you ask I'd be happy to try to answer your questions.<P>NewBeg - I know you have been a friend to TL. She's told me about you. I agree that it will feel odd when she finds a man that makes her happy. She is the mother of my children and I will always respect that. But as I'm sure you are aware, we are way past being able to be with one another anymore. I needed and wanted to be loved not just as a human being, but as a husband and father. TL stopped doing this along time ago. I became in her eyes "only a paycheck". That is truely sad.<P>NoTrust - I'm sorry if you view my post as a means of justification. I don't need to justify anything. I was in this relationship with TL for 18 years with her and no one else. She has admitted here on this very forum that she was as much responsible if not more for the breakdown of our marriage. I did everything I could to get her to counseling, to work on things with me, to meet me half way on paying the debt she incurred solo on our behalf. One cannot fix things alone. It's even much more difficult to do so when the other party is unwilling. And for the record, I am no longer in an affair. My divorce will be final in a few weeks. There is abosolutely no chance for a reconcilliation. Neither TL nor I want that. I am having an honest and open relationship with a woman that believes in me as her partner. We are not living together and will not. After a year or so of being alone to work things out with TL, I am actually grateful that Mia was still willing to go out with me.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NoTrust:<BR><B> this sounds like the epitome of betrayers when the betrayeds say they feel no regret and reek of justification.<P>I agree with noTrust and see this post<BR>as a means of cleansing yourself and getting absolution from people who have been hurt as your wife has. It may be true that you "tried", but there is never any excuse for infidelity. What about self respect? What about honor? What about your covenant between your wife and God? Your selfish needs come before all those things?<P>I also think that this OW was the catalyst and excuse for you to give up. I'm not saying that your marriage was something that could have been fixed, but once your attention was on someone else, it didnt have a chance. Since it didn't have a chance, the legal and honorable thing to do would have been to end the marriage first. If Mia is as great as you say, you bring to her an ugly history now. Great beginning.<P>As for being in a fantasy, I have to agree with NoTrust on that one too. The thing that was lacking in my life and marriage was a sense of morality and trust. I met a guy who was all things wonderful: good looking, had loads of money, was a family oriented person, went to church, balanced work and play, and was just the dream man. I found myself attracted to him and him to me. Neither of us pursued this though because I was married and neither of us was about to infringe upon that! <P>When I decided, "This is it. I am not staying in this marriage" I went out with him. And guess what? I had the common sense to see that he was a flawed human being just like the rest of us and what I was attracted to wasn't him, but his qualities of fidelity and honor. (this just happened 2 days ago) Funny how our vision of things change when we don't have all this "Stuff" from our relationships on our back.<P>I realized that I am not ready for Mr Wonderful or anybody else and that the things I need cannot be found in another person, but must be cultivated in my self.<P>It's great to have someone there to comfort you and feed you what you lack, but until you stop searching outside yourself, you will never find the strength and character we all have within ourselves. You will never have that "honest", "open" relationship you talk about. We all have some holes that one single person can't fill. As long as you are looking outside yourself, you will always be vulnerable to the one who seems to have everything you need. When we expect other people to do what we are responsible for, we are always disappointed.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Popeye,<BR>Very insightful, and I agree.

EM,<BR>True though your story is, this post does *reek* of justification. If everything is so right and great with ms.sunshine, <BR>than WHY, are you here again, trying to convince ?, that you did all you could, your marriage was doomed, so what the hey right? <BR>You didn't give until you had no more left to give, you gave until you found someone else.<P>Just one more thing... The tale of how the evil TL. had mia's phone service disconnected<BR>putting her child in such peril . I bet you and Mia were just so *shocked* that she could do such a thing! (one more good reason to justifiy your affair anyway.).<BR>GEEEZZZZZ!!!! How long did she go without service...a DAY?? (My! whatever would she do, if a storm knocked out the phone lines?)<BR>It was wrong of TL. to do that of course, but she has apoligised. (Many betrayed have gone to far worse extreems). It's petty of you to come here and kick TL. like that. If you are so great you wouldn't need to do that.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Girlfriend (edited May 21, 2000).]

EM<BR>I just have a question since I don't remember the details.<P>During the year that Mia was completely out of your life, was TL aware of the affair and the facts? This year of "working" on the marriage was based on honesty about the past?<P>Sorry I don't remember that part of the situation.

So Mia left you to allow you time to work things out. Sounds like the affair never really ended to me. You merely put it "on hold". She patiently waited in the wings to see what happened, and you knew that if things with TL didn't workout that you could go back to Mia. As long as you justify your actions by any means, you cloud the issue and your own "weaknesses".<P>Of course, this is all water under the bridge. As long as you and TL have agreed to the final course of action (you have), then anything the rest of us have to say is irrelevant.<P>I wish you both (actually all 3) the best.

EM:<P>I won't say too much, but I hope you and Mia are happy in your life together. You and she really deserve some happiness, and I am glad you finally have someone special to share your life with.<P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Ditto WhoDat's post.<BR>And, BTW, I am one of the betrayed.<p>[This message has been edited by Merlyn (edited May 21, 2000).]

Exhausted Man,<P>I remember reading about what you and Tired Lady have been through. My heart goes out to you and I truly hope you and Mia find the happiness you deserve, as well as Tired Lady.<P>...also dittoing what WhoDat said.

Thank you again for all your opinions. And that's what all this is about...sharing our thoughts and opinions whether or not we all agree or disagree. <P>Wasstubborn - I was completely, and at times painfully honest about every aspect of my relationship with Mia. TL wanted all the "gory" details, against the advise of our "joint" marriage counselor. But she felt she wanted to hear the truth from me instead of the "imagined" things in her head. From TL's point of view, she needed to know everything and I answered every question she asked.<P>WhoDat, Merlyn, Connor - I appreciate your encouraging words. Thanks.

Some marriages just don’t work. Perhaps yours was/is one of them. However, having an affair is one way to all but guarantee it <B>won’t</B> work! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She began a vicious campaign againt Mia, at one point impersonating her and having her phone service disconnected. Not a very smart thing to do to someone with a small child.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But having an affair <B>is</B> a smart thing to do?<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know alot of her actions are as a result of her being hurt and angry, but irrationnal behavior is not something I look favorably at.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So clue me up on this one, ‘cause I just don’t get it?<P>Look, you are having an affair. Their is absolutely no way you can repair your marriage while you are. Do not try to justify it. So TL filed for divorce. She must have felt that you were not putting as much into the relationship as you should have, I don’t know<P>Whatever happens, I hope you learn what you contributed to the failure of the relationship and also learn how to NOT make the same mistakes.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Hi EM .... sorry to see you getting blasted so bad. There's no use in beating a dead horse, but those still in pain don't see that.<P>And GIRLFRIEND, Mia was w/o phone service for an entire weekend, as TL was clever enough to do it on a Friday. Affair or no, she had NO reason to take that high school action. Her absolute and total hate of Mia has affected her THINKING .... I shudder to think that she has the ability to put an innocent child in danger ... it's probably best she doesn't have her own kids .... she's very irrational .... has no regard for life in general.<P>At any rate, what's done is done. We can stop beating up EM for his actions ... right or wrong ... it's DONE now. TL agrees that it's best and frankly why would EM bother to argue that point?<P>I wish EM and Mia the best ... it will be a hard road with many death threats I'm sure, but they KNOW that already. I don't envy them ... <P>I just wish TL would get some friggin' counseling and medication.<P>That is all.<P>

I HAVE to say something! I am a betrayed spouse.I had a difficult time with forgiveness.H and I are now recovering so wonderfully,I am thankful we had this wake up call.<P>My counselor once told me someting I believe was the most important "nugget" I got out of counseling through this whole ordeal. She said,"You hold the keys to whether or not this marriage will work.If you don't let this go and focus on the future and what lied ahead,you will exhaust your H over this and he will end up being unable to endure paying endlessly for his mistake.You have to LET IT GO." <P>My H said one of his biggest fears was that I would never get over his affair and that it would be something that would haunt our interactions together for the rest of our lives.He said that if that were to happen,he wouldn't be able to live like that. Who's choice was it? MINE<P>WS do not deserve to have this hung over their heads forever,especially if they honestly try to give the marriage a go. They need a break too.Betrayeds just can't continue to beat WS up with this,and there are many ways in which we can accomplish that.We betrayed can push them away forever,if we don't get the help we need to deal with the pain.<P>TL sounds like she really needs help. EM maybe you could be a little more patient with her if she sought out the help she needs. God bless you both.

I see the "exhausted man" took my suggestion and came along to read and even write down his opinions. Most of you seem pretty pissed off at him, myself included, for having "chosen" to leave our marriage. <P>Now I'm going to say something to set the record straight and be honest (for a change) I was in fact the person in the relationship that failed to work at any sort of compromise. I wanted everything my way - yes it's true and very selfish. You could all go on and on about EM's affair or resumption of one, but he's right that we both no longer view this as an affair. We both filed for divorce before he called Mia up and asked to start seeing her again. It really doesn't matter whether you believe him or not. But I know it to be true. As for the "disconnection of the phone service", what Maya states is correct. I wanted her to be completely pissed off so I did it when I knew there would be no customer service available to her. What did I gain from that? Absolutely nothing except her pressing harrassment charges against me. Some example I'm setting for my own teenage children, huh? And continuing on the honest theme here, the phone thing was the least harmful thing I've done to Mia. I wanted her to hurt. I wanted to make her life a living hell. My venom did nothing but hurt me in the long run. <P>I am totally in agreement that I wish we had filed for divorce long before EM decided he needed to be with her. That's hindsight. And for what it's worth, for the past year or so while he was not seeing her, he made great efforts to do what I wanted him to do to change - I however didn't even do half the things he felt he wanted or needed out of the marriage. Because, my dear friends here, I was far too deep in hatred and anger over the actual affair that I wouldn't allow even the tiniest babysteps to be acknowledged as him trying.<P>We, EM and I both got to where we are today as a joint effort in contributing in the downfall of our marriage. I know I made bigger contributions and refused to seek any sort of counseling until it was far too late. What I hope that others here read from this is that, as "mthrrhbard" stated, the men and women here who have been betrayed emotionally, physically and mentally must be able to forgive their mates indescretions and learn to move forward. I haven't learned to do that and I'm very afraid that this will carry forward with me into any future relationship I may have. Obviously we all need to learn from our mistakes.

Just trying to get the reason why this post was started again. I thought this situation ended months ago, why rehash all the ugly and painful details just to make yourself feel better EM? You are both human who have made mistakes, move on. The comment about what TL did to the phone was unnecessary. You said she did it out of anger and that doesn't score points with you. Wasn't your affair out of anger towards TL, not having your needs met after begging for years. Sounds like neither one of you know how to control your actions when needs aren't being met so why rehash it all. Your human, you've both made mistakes, move on.