In light of "Poorme"'s demands for a child from his wife - I'd like to propose a question - Is wanting a child more important than your spouse and your marriage? Is this a legitimate "need" that one has a "right" to expect the other to fulfill? And, if, after the marriage, if one or the other changes their mind, or circumstances make it difficult or impossible to have a child, does the one wanting a child more have a right to walk away from the marriage? Is this a justifiable reason for divorce and/or infidelity to find a like-minded partner?

That is a really good question. My ex had some pressure from his family to have kids, and all of his friends had kids. According to his family, it was my "fault" for not wanting kids. Never mind that I was as clear as poorme's wife about kids before we got married. I think my ex changed his mind too, which was just one more reason for him to divorce me.<P>One thing my ex said was "If we had kids, I'd want someone else to take care of them". He made no bones about not wanting to do the "dirty work". So no surprise that I would not want to have kids with him.

Absolutely for sure, one of the things that led to my fiances divorce was his wifes refusing to have children. She had always said she wanted children. When they married it was with plans to start a familly in a few years. Then she changed her mind and refused. She put her desire not to have children in front of his desire to have a family. Why is her desire not to have children more important then his desire to have them? That seems like a very good reason to leave a marriage to me. First he did not get what he thought he was getting. He had never thought in a million years that he would not be a father! Second she has no right to deny him that and expect him to stay. If she doesn't want children fine, but it was to deny them to him. Here's the really said part of the whole thing. She strung him along for years saying maybe next year, maybe next year and because of his good heart he did stay! Finally she was nearly 40 and she just flat out said no. He was destroyed by this and by her misleading him all these years. We will never have children together. He feels he is to old and I can't have more. She stole that from him. Thank God he at least loves my children like his own. I am not saying this was an excuse to have an affair. But it is a big reason why their marriage was destroyed even before the affair.<P>Del

One other thing, isn't she forcing her decision on him by refusing to have children? It's one of those situations where one or the other is going to have to make a big sacrifice and neither one thinks it should be them.<P>Del

HI Student! How goes life?<BR>I have to agree that sharing this little tidbit with your soon to be spouse is vital! Student made it clear right from the start. <BR>But the urge to procreate is pretty basic for most species, us being no exception. <BR>I do not think it is a right, but I do think it is a valid need for some.<BR>Does spouse come first? If the marriage is strong, this issue should not tear it apart. There may be areas to compromise that should be explored...maybe adoption, big sis/bro programs, foster kids, etc. <BR>I made it clear that I wanted one child prior to marriage, h agreed. I have two. That is compromise, and I have been very blessed by the act.

I think any issue that is approached with dishonesty is a bad one. If both agree to have children or not have children, they should honor their agreement. If the desire for children is stronger than the desire to be with that person, you should find someone who shares your desire. Why can't it be that simple?<P>If you deny yourself a heart wish, can you be anything but disappointed and resentful? I thought of that a million times and offered my H a way out of our relationship, engagement, and marriage for this very reason, and he never took it. He always said his he wanted kids with me. I felt special.

You know...that is a tuffy. My stbx and I never talked about having children before we married.<P>When I found out I was pregnant...I was devastated. Why? Heck I don't know why it came as such a surprise...I mean I did know what would happen if no protection was used.<P>But as the preganancy progressed....I slowly got into it. It became clear that my stbx was more excited about the fact that he could make a baby then the thought of being a father.<P>By the time I became pregnant again...I was over joyed. I really loved being a mother, a parent. He acted more like it was expected of us....not what "we" expected or wanted.<P>So we go back to the question.....I don't think I really cared at the beginning of our marriage if I had children or not....but after I had the first.....I knew I wanted more.<P>So yes...I do feel that your wanting a child can change....yes I do feel that if both of your expectations and wants included having a child.....only to change your mind after marriage that it could lead to the breakup of a marriage.<P>People don't always want a child...just to prove they can.....many want a child because they love their spouse and want to have a family with them.<P>Poorme does have the right to want a child, if he truly wants one to have a family and because he loves his wife. But if their are problems in a marriage...you need to wait until you both feel secure enough with yourselves and your marriage before starting a family<P>Please don't flame me for my opinion

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MENTAL:<BR><B>Poorme does have the right to want a child, if he truly wants one to have a family and because he loves his wife. But if their are problems in a marriage...you need to wait until you both feel secure enough with yourselves and your marriage before starting a family</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that people have the right to have a child if they want one... period? He should bail on his wife/commitment because he changed his mind? <P>Poorme DOES have a child- with the OW. He has abandoned his child because it is a girl and because he doesn't like the mother. (My understanding based on what he's told me).<P>I think people have a right to fulfill whatever their heart desires, but NOT if that means doing something immoral, unethical, or illegal. Last time I checked, adultery was illegal and immoral. <P>I offered him the door anytime he said he wanted children. Not in a mean way, but because I love him and want him to be fulfilled. He did not take it. Said it wasn't that important to him.<P>When we were still together and he knew that his OW was pregnant, he told me he could find someone to have his kid that wouldn't ask any money from him. He could go over there and spend time with it and be a part time dad and have his life with me. That beautiful plan would save me the hassle of being pregnant and dealing with a kid and he would get his child. Little did I know that his scenario wasn't just some musings, but was actually what he had in mind.

When my stbx and I were dating we discussed having children. I wanted at least one. He agreed. When we were married he wanted to wait, then after 2 yrs he said that he really never wanted kids and that he was getting a vasectomy. I was crushed. I have always wanted children and I feel he agreed to them in the beginning just to get me to marry him. <P>We are not divorcing because of his decision to not have kids but I must say that it helped me to take the final step with the paperwork. The fact that he had an affair while we were together and several others since we've been separated, along with our inability to communicate as partners is the basic reason for the divorce.<P>The fact that I now have a chance to be in a new loving relationship with the possibility of children (even if they are step-kids) is very exciting. I feel I have hope again.

Why am I not surprised that poorme became less enthused about being a father when he found out it was a girl? Hmmmm.<P>There were other things I made clear before I married too. Like wanting a grad school education. I knew exactly what I wanted and was very upfront about everything long before he married me. So why did he marry me? He lied to me about his intentions. He had betrayed me before I put even one foot on the aisle because he couldn't be honest with himself about his goals/needs.<P>So many people get married just to get married. They want someone in their life, that person meets alot of their needs, but they never ask themselves what THEY are willing to do to keep the relationship together. Basically, they stay in it as long as it is convenient. <P>People, if someone gets married with the understanding that the other person does not want children (or vice-versa) then they need to stick with their commitment. Period. They made a choice. Now, they are perfectly within their right to ask the other person to change their mind, and even discuss a compromise. However, they do not have a "right" to expect the other person to change because they knew what they were getting into when they got married. If they decide to divorce, at least they should have the guts to take responsibility for their change of heart, instead of making the other person the villain for not just following along.

Popeye,<BR>I am not very eloquent with words. Yes, I do think that you misunderstood me. The statement I was making is that if he loves his wife(you)....is commited to his marriage and "if" you decide together to have children with him....how wonderful. There are alot of things I want.....But just because I "want" them doesn't mean I get them. Your husband has the right to want a child. You have the right to not want a child.<BR>No...I do not feel that if one spouse makes it perfectly clear that children are not an option before marriage...then it should end the marriage.<P>I think it was so disrespectful...so hurtful....so terrible....for him to go outside your marriage to fulfill his "wants". I do not think what he did was right....and I believe that I could never be swayed to condone it unless you were using a surrogete (sp??)<P>Popeye...I feel for you...I know the pain and hurt you have felt.....are feeling. I don't need to defend you.....I just want to tell you that I hurt for you. I think that the OC he had just proves to me that he doesn't respect women....children or life. <P>I wish you all the luck in the world.<P>I'm sorry<P>

I was clear that I didn't want children when we married and soon after, H had a vasectomy. I thought it was an agreed upon thing so I could get off the pill and he wouldnt have to use condoms and because surgey for women is more invasive. Now he says that is one of the reasons he wants to break up with me because I got my way with the vasectomy and maybe he changed his mind, or would at least like the posibility. I'm still not sure if it is true.. he really has never exhibitited any signs of even liking kids, or if it was one more thing to blame me for.<BR>Lora

Lady M,<BR> Interesting post.Issues that we dealt with,too.Before we married,we decided not to have children.Sometimes,I regret that now,but that is what we decided back then.We wanted to travel,and not be tied down.We felt if things changed later,we could always talk about it.<BR> But we traveled,worked to get ahead,had fun,and never really talked about it.We had plenty of nieces and nephews we could borrow for a while.After they left,my W would plop down,and say"Boy,I'm glad that's over with,they wear me out."<BR> Then,after 21 years,and W started an affair,I got the old"You didn't give me any kids,I wanted a lot of children!"She threw that at her family,too,blaming it all on me.Did a good job of helping to turn them against me.I know it's probably a smokescreen,or part of a MLC,but it was all she could talk about,like I was some kind of baby-killer.<BR> I guess I have to agree with Student on making your choices when you get married,and living with those choices.Not turning around two decades later,and blaming your spouse for the decisions you made,too.<BR> And that's all I got to say about that.<P> --Murph

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Murphy:<BR><B> Then,after 21 years,and W started an affair,I got the old"You didn't give me any kids,I wanted a lot of children!"She threw that at her family,too,blaming it all on me.Did a good job of helping to turn them against me.I know it's probably a smokescreen,or part of a MLC,but it was all she could talk about,like I was some kind of baby-killer.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think it's definitely a smoke screen to hide whatever it is that she can't talk about openly and honestly. I truly don't think in our case that my H's roving and the divorce is because he wanted a child that badly. He had to have something legitimate that everyone could see to make it my fault. Everybody knew we didn't have kids because I didn't want them. <P>I think for a while he believed not having kids was the reason. He believed it until he got what he said he wanted so much, and now look. He doesn't want THAT child. He wants a family. <P>When you are in the middle of such emotional conflict, it is so hard to find the real reasons for the things you do and the way you feel. It's so easy to attach to the most obvious thing or the easiest thing instead of looking at the real issue- often because we are at the middle of our own unhappiness.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Delphi:<BR><B>One other thing, isn't she forcing her decision on him by refusing to have children? It's one of those situations where one or the other is going to have to make a big sacrifice and neither one thinks it should be them.<P>Del</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>If she was clear <B> before the marriage </B> that she didn't want children then no, he knew the situation before hand. If children were that important to him he should not have married her.<P>Now if he said he wanted them and the woman lied and said she did too that is different.<P>That is why people need to be 100 % honest about their hopes, dreams and desires before marriage.<P>When my neice got married a few years ago, they both wanted children, my neice has problems getting pregnant, and when she has gotten pregnant she has miscarried. Should her h walk out on her because of that ? NO<P>In your case the w should have been honest. Or it is possible that there were reasons she decided not to have children with him. Have you heard her side of the story ? There are always two sides. <P><P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>Hepatitis C, educate yourself ! <A HREF="http://hepatitis-central.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://hepatitis-central.com/</A>

I just had another thought - the spouses that think they have an absolute right to demand children, even when it is not possible due to health or money issues,or because of changed life circumstances, most probably did not say to their spouse before they were married "I want children no matter what - it is the only reason I am marrying you, and if you decide later that you don't want them, or can't have them, I will divorce you in order to get what I want. Having a child is more important to me than you or our marriage." It seems to me that they had just a much a duty to be as honest about their priority (that it was not the marriage) as those who don't want children or who may be ambivalent about it.<P>After all, nothing in life is guaranteed and just because you want a child doesn't mean you should have one, or that it is the best thing for your marriage. Life sometimes has a way of throwing curves - one or both partners may be infertile. Finances might not allow expenditures of the amount of money needed for adoption or for assisted reproduction techniques. Is it fair for one spouse to force the other to have a child just for their own ego satisfaction - with no thought to how it will affect the marriage or the life of the other spouse? Does the want of a child for the wrong reasons trump one's marriage vows? Isn't marriage more than just having children? Without a strong marriage, there is no basis for a stable family. Having a child should be about what you have to give, not just about what you want to get out of it. The marriage needs to be the basis for the family - not the other way around. Am I just crazy - or isn't this putting the cart in front of the horse?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lady M:<BR><B> Is it fair for one spouse to force the other to have a child just for their own ego satisfaction - with no thought to how it will affect the marriage or the life of the other spouse?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Is it fair to have a child without considering how that will affect the life of the CHILD? When is it ever alright for our selfishness to every negatively impact the life of another?

Having children is not a right.<P>My H and I were both very clear up front that neither of us wanted children. We were in our early 30's when we married, and yes, the possibility was always there that one of us could change our mind.<P>I always felt that in this life we make decisions, and then we have to live with the consequences. When I first started seeing my gynecologist, she gave me the "time is short" lecture. I told her: "I'll make a deal with you. If you stop nagging me about my biological clock, I promise not to come to you when I'm 40 asking you to work miracles."<P>I have revisited the issue with my H a number of times in our marriage, especially during the Dragon Lady days, since he used to say that her kid was "pretty cool, for a kid." I wanted to make sure that if he was changing his mind, I was open to discussion.<P>I know plenty of women whose husbands haven't wanted children who went ahead and got pregnant, assuming that "once he sees it, he'll love it." And not one of those marriages stayed together.<P>If one party changes his or her mind and the other is willing to go along, that's fine. But it is possible to live a fine and fulfilling life without children. My H and I go to the Caribbean every year, we spend time together, and I have friends who envy us our life. <P>As for the "Who's going to take care of you in your old age?" question, well, there are no guarantees that your children will do so, and frankly, I think that's a terrible reason to have children.

Popeye - Amen to that - too many people think nothing of the child and what kind of life he or she will be brought into. Just goes to show you how selfish some people are.<BR>Children should not be used as self-gratification vehicles!!<P>Dazed & Confused - you're right about the "who will take care of you, etc.?" My ex-MIL used the same tactic! I wonder which one of hers will be taking care of her & ex-FIL when they get really old. I can almost guarantee that none of them will be able and/or willing to do so. After all, they are busy with their own families. My ex-MIL also called me selfish for not "giving" her a granchild, and that I would be sorry later if I did not have a child because I could not really be fulfilled as a woman without having a child. However, since H was sterile, if was not mine to "give". When my (now ex)H and I told her we were getting a dog, she said we couldn't get a dog, because we didn't even have a child yet. She said to a friend of ours whose wife was pregnant how proud she was of him because now that he was going to be a father, he was finally a "real man". (His wife, unfortunately miscarried - I guess he's not a "real man" any longer.) You know, it's a relief not to have to put up with such nonsense any more!!!