I honestly cannot phanthom the pain you all have experienced in your own personal struggles at home. But I need to ask you this....I just read in Harley's book "His Needs/Her Needs" (chpt. 13) that he tells betrayed wives point blank that their husbands will "always remain in love with his love for the rest of his life".<P>I know given the place I am at right now, I would have to echo that this is probably very true. But how do YOU respond to this? Agree...disagree? Any comments....how do you accept this fact? <P>Does is make you want to just throw the towell in? I would like to hear from you on this?

I know you requested wifes, but I'd have to say that if my wife is always going to love another man and I will always be number 2 on her list the rest of her life, I hope she files for the divorce sooner than later. I want my marriage to be exclusive from the end of her withdraw on. I want 10 15 years from now her to realize that her decision was the best thing she ever made to stay with me and not even remember what OM name was.<P>If it is anything less than that she is cheating me out of my life as far as I'm concerned.

NOMAS-<BR>If that is true ( and it very well might be)then thats a good thing in my opinion. <P>Because that means that they still love us. I mean we were the love of their life at one point right???<P>I believe there is a difference between love and romantic love. Right now what my h feels for OW is romantic love. Not sure what he feels for me. Although he has said many times in the past that he would always love me but he is just not in love with me. <P>Does it bother me knowing that my h could love another woman if he decided to come back to me? YES it would and it would make recovery very difficult. But until I am at that point in my life, I am not sure how I would handle that...<P>I have often wondered how the OW must feel about that on her end. I mean here is a man that was happily married for 12 years and with me for a total of 20. How does she feel knowing he still loves me??????<P>A little threatened????

I have read many different places that "in love" feelings can not last more than a couple of years, if there is regular contact, that chemically it is impossible for "in love" feelings to last indefinitely. If the WS was "in love" but did not love the OW, I do not believe that he will love her forever. <P>But, as Missy said, the WS has loved the W for many, many years. My H and I had been together for 24 years. The OW will always know that that love will not disappear. I firmly believe that love, as opposed to "in love", does not die.<P>My H was married briefly several years before I met him. Did it bother me that I believe he will always love his first wife? Yes, it bothered me at first, but long ago it stopped bothering me. I think it would bother me more to think that he could completely turn off feelings for someone he once loved.

No Mas:<P>The fact that my H has told me that he fell in love with another has been the biggest trial of my life. I only want to be #1 with him. He has told me that he loves me, but is not "in love" with me. This part of our recovery is overhelming for me. I have been faithful for twenty seven years, have had opportunity to stray, but never did. At this point in our recovery (about 6 months) I am struggling mightily with wanting to "throw in the towel". I must admit that I'm not sure that I am still "in love" with him either. After his two-year betrayal I am just not sure. I think every day that maybe I should have just left when I had the opportunity, because I am trying so hard to get this feeling back, and he is basically just trying to get over her. It hurts.

I remember reading that part of "His Needs, Her Needs"shortly after the discovery of my H's affair 2 1/2 years ago. Not only was I having an extremely difficult time dealing with my hurt and anger at that particular time, reading and posting to overcome it, but that paragraph almost took the wind outta me. If that were true, I wanted no part of "recovery". Throw in the towel? Yes, to put it mildly. I posted about it and got many, many responses,, all negative,,from betrayed and betrayers. <P>My H will always remember the OW. She obviously made an impression on him at a particularly vulnerable time. He had a relationship with her for too many years for him to forget she ever existed. But "always love her?" No,,my H now believes he never did "love" her. Not "love" as we know it. Not a desire to be with her daily, to share his life with her, to grow old with her. She filled a need at the time, his need for companionship and appreciation, something he felt I wasn't doing. She is a part of his past, not the present.

I hope that someday I will feel the same as you. It is that kind of hope that keeps me going. My H and I have too many years together to throw it away. I'm 45 and have been with him since High School. I think that sometimes I am jealous that he was able to revisit those old kind of feelings. I want them too. I am just hoping that my faith in a higher power will see me through this.

I hope that someday I will feel the same as you. It is that kind of hope that keeps me going. My H and I have too many years together to throw it away. I'm 45 and have been with him since High School. I think that sometimes I am jealous that he was able to revisit those old kind of feelings. I want them too. I am just hoping that my faith in a higher power will see me through this.

NoMas,<P>My H has said he "thinks" he loves the OW. That was said 3 months ago and I know things have changed. I know he has no intention of staying with this woman. Because of that, I feel better. This is not the love of his life. He has admitted he just got tired of being hurt by me. He seeked out another woman but their entire relationship was based on all of his lies. <P>My H's first love and possibly the love of life came long before I did. I am the complete opposite of her. The OW has similar features to her. My H was in love with me in the beginning. He asked me to marry him and he told me through the years he loved me. His first love is long gone and has been out of his life for a very long time. I have never felt threatened by her because you cannot compare the two of us. I can accept this love. I was not there and was not a part of his life. <P>I believe, in my H case, he does not love the OW and he still loves me. Right now, though, he's scared. Scared of getting hurt again. <P>Do I want to throw the towel in? Sometimes. But then I know that if I do I am failing him, failing our D and failing myself. Right now, my H needs me more than ever. He may or may not see it but that's okay. In time I know he will. Some people may see me as being naive or overly optimistic. A short time ago, I would agree - maybe even say I'm lying to myself. But now, there's something telling me to hang in there. It will work out.<P>Maybe my situation is different from yours. Like I said, I do not feel this woman is the love of his life. If it is, he has a funny way of showing it. I would pity both of them if that was the case. I have to echo Missy9, I have been with my H for 10 years. He loved me first, we had a child together (the only one for either of us), he continues a relationship with me. How does that make the OW feel? I think very threatened. And rightfully so. <P>So can I answer your question? I don't think so. I know in my heart he does not love the OW. I can't explain it. I just know it. I know what he is feeling for the OW is very superficial and it is fear that is keeping him away from me. Just as I will have to learn to trust my H again, my H will have to learn to trust me - trust that I will be there for him forever and always.<P><P>------------------<BR>Molli<P>Find your strength within!

Hello NoMas,<P>How are you doing?<P>As far as H remaining in love with the OW for the rest of his life, I can testify it not to be true in my case.<P>My H had a EA and PA 9 yrs ago. He left me for the OW because he said he was in love with her. She had my H's OC who is almost 8 yrs old now. My H has no love feelings for her. He has voluntarily told me that it's so weird because when he looks at her he can't rememeber or imagine why he thought he loved her ... says he feels nothing in the relm of love for her, he just respects her as his son's mother.<P>So I also believe the "in-love" feelings are fleeting. Somewhat like the affair itself, it doesn't or can't sustain in "real" everyday life. I believe when the affair starts to wain, that there is a term of mourning because it's a lose of a dream or fantasy that took them out of that mundane every day life.<P>Well, that's my two cents worth.<P>I hope you and your wife are doing better NoMas, you two are in my prayers. God Bless.<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited July 04, 2000).]

The thing I think about with this statement is :Who is his love? I was his love, first last and always! Sure he'd been with her before he met me but then he wasn't with her. He chose to come after me. He chose again after I found out about the affair to be with her. But that love wasn't the kind of love it takes for a marriage. <BR>Our love is strong, lasting and different. Don't ask me if it's sexual, I know it isn't, I know that I am much better in bed. Is it motherly? No, I am a mother of 5 children and have been told numerous times that I am an excellent mother. Is it the friendship? No, because even when he was with her he was saying I was his best friend and he couldn't imagine life without me.<BR>So what was this love he had for her???? I don't know but it surely must have been shallow and not strong. Because for a good love one must be able to meet many aspects of it and I know that I do and she didn't. And then there's the final point, who is he with right now? And who does he say he wants to spend the rest of his life with?<P>I am not saying it doesn't bother me that he told some OW that he loved her. It did. But that isn't the focus now. I need to think about other things than that. I need to think about how I feel with him and how he feels about me. NOW. FOREVER.<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!

I'm very disillusioned by Dr. H right now.<BR>He says affairs usually don't last 6 months <BR>after they are first brought into the light of day. Then he has the gall to claim this is love? I thought he was a genius.<P>Anyway--this A my H had--he told the OW point blank he was in love with me--would never leave me but wanted to "make her happy" too (like he's God's gift to women!).<BR>Said he would never marry her. Would never raise her children. Would stop seeing her if she ever confronted me (real creepy, huh?!). Yes, he did say "I love you" to her--but whatever kind of love that is, she can keep it!! Four days before d-day he stopped all contact with her--no long goodbye--just "That's it" and no contact. For those four days he treated my like a princess again--said he was so sorry he was so cruel and neglectful, said he realized how much he loved me. Four days later the OW's H told me about the A between my H and his W. <P>My H has never waivered in his love for me. Never said, "I don't know"--never hesitated trying to win me back after I kicked him out, and told the OW she could have him. Told him he could have OW--encouraged them to contact eachother--that she needs him more than I do--he still would not let me go.<BR>He admits he will not be able to forget her (when I said she will always be in his heart)<BR>but that I was his heart and he can't forget her like he can't forget many people that he learns lessons from in life. Even his enemies he can't forget. <P>Am I being conned? You may think so, NoMas.<BR>I'm looking daily for such clues. Have come up with only a depressed, suicidal OW in severe withdrawal that is still in love with my H but says "I gave him my heart and he threw my heart back at me"

Hi NoMas -<P>First, I want to say Congrats on starting the process of cleansing out the "hidden" stuff.....I know it was hard to do and you get a big ATTABOY!!<P>About this "love" thing with the OP..well, I kinda think that it is a mute point!!! <P>Of course a betrayer will always have some "place" in their life that the OP fits in.....whether that is "love" or not, can not be determined until time goes on.<P>Love has various stages....if it is true that one does love the OP always, then which stage of love is it? <P>Usually it is one of two scenarios when a relationship is ended with some what if's floating around.....<P>1) The betrayer does not give their best effort to reestablishing the marital relationship and stays in a "what if" hell of their own making.<P>2) The betrayer accomplishes the growth and committment needed to reconnect with their partner - which in turn, puts the OP in the proper place in their lives.<BR>This could range from a gratefulness of life lessons learned to an outright despising of them for aiding in their "bad brain" period.....it all depends on the betrayer's self discoveries about their reasons for everything that they have gone through.......<P>It is (once again...like all of this seems to be) not so "cut and dry" as whether OP is always loved.....<P>They are forever a part of who you are, just like they will forever be a part of who your spouse is.......<P>OP touched both of your lives.....it is the overall outcome between you that will determine the significance.<P>BIG HUGS, <P>Sheba<P>

Well, I have to admit that I have no idea what my H feels.<P>I believe that my H loves me as the mother of his children, a good person, etc., but I don't feel like he is in love with me.<P>I no longer believe he is in love with Cafe Woman, either...if he ever was. Her adult son was found unconscious and not breathing one day last week (thankfully, it had just happened, and he was revived). I believe that if my H was still in love with her, he would have found a way to go to her. He didn't, as his whereabouts that day were easily confirmed. It's possible that there was some telephone communication between them, but I don't think so.<P>I am considering the possibility that my H is not letting himself be "in love" with me because that would mean giving up "control" of our relationship. As it is now, he is getting virtually all of my attention and thoughts, I do a lot for him and am so sweet to him, so why mess that up by making me feel secure in his love for me?<P>My H just can't get it that I NEED for him to show me that he really truly loves me. I think that his ego is just too big for that.<P>NoMas, I do believe that you can fall "in love" with your wife again. I also believe that you may always have fond thoughts of the other woman you care about, but I believe that if you cease all contact and actively turn your affections toward your wife and meet her needs (whereupon she will probably be more likely to meet yours), you will lose the strong feelings you have for the OW.<P>

I suppose it depends on the people involved. I suppose there are some people who start out as betrayers who end up together or who always have some kind of connection, but my thought is that it would be the minority rather than the majority.<P>You don't just bombard a marriage and remain looking like a desirable and good person once the light of day hits.<P>Maybe I am egoistical, but my H has had no shortage of women before me (and since apparently), and none of them held his interest for very long- even if he had long term relationships with them. He told me (and I found this very sad) that I was the first and only woman he'd ever had a friendship with! According to him, I was the first woman he could stand to be around for hours at a time, the first woman he never got tired of sleeping with, the first woman he ever wanted to wake up with, the only woman he wanted to have his children, etc... So, do I think that there is any woman who can take that away from me? Absolutely not.<P>He can say this OW did this and that one did that, but he's left them all. He's bored with them all. The sexual attraction hasn't lasted. They get on his nerves. He doesn't respect them. She said he never felt any connection with any of them other than sexual. (Knowing my H, I believe that is true). Despite our separation, he still tells me daily that he loves me. Those are pretty big shoes to fill.<P>If my H and I don't make it, I pity the women who come after me. I feel they will always live in my shadow. My H and I may have our problems, but lack of love has never been one of them. He thinks I am the smartest woman in the world. He hates dumb women, and when your competition is the smartest woman in the world, you are bound to look stupid. (Yes, I know that is unrealistic, but though my H has torn me down in many ways, he also has me on a pedestal in others).<P>No, if there is an unforgettable woman in our case, it would be me. I guess that is good enough revenge, eh? If you can't beat 'em, curse 'em!

The reason I bring this up is because I for some reason, have felt like there was no way I could move forward, having the feelings that I have for this other person. And I have no earthly idea how one seperates his heart from having these feelings. <BR>But now, after reading this aritcle, I think I better understand that these feelings I have won't be going away anytime soon. ( I kind of suspected that). But that does not mean that I can't move forward in the right direction.<P>I guess it's not that important for my wife to know this....but it did help me out a bit.<BR>

What books have you read besides Harley?

NaMas,<P>Having had a PA for 6 months and having moved out at the same time, over 10 years ago, the feelings actually do go away, <B> BUT very slowly. </B> Its like breaking up with the your first real love, your first almost could have married girlfriend, no different, just different timing.<P>The specialness of the attraction does not change, just the lack of contact over time to keep it alive. I can remember quite vividly the first women I wanted to marry. She broke u with me to be with her eventual husband. Beautiful, everyhthing I wanted, perfect. I still love the memories I had with her.<P>I can remember my PA just as vividly, the nights we spent together, but the relationship was purely sex, and recapturing a part of my social development that I missed. It filled in alot for me, since I was at all boys schools and summer camps, and jobs from age 12 through 22. <P>But I can also remember my STBX and the good times and the dreams I had with her. The times are all very special, although there are substantially more of them. But with your W, you also have bad times. With PA's and EA's you don't have that, as you don't live with them exclusively and get to have all the daily routines and commitments, etc.<P>If you want to forget your Spouse, you find a lawyer to beat the $hit out of her, and the anger generated will do that on its own. Harley said somewhere about anger that it helps you forget.<P>When I broke up my PA, I still worked with this OW at graduate school for 5 more months. Three years later she called me again to see how I was doing, but the call didn't stir up anything at all, because of the time gone by.<P>Yes, I loved her, now I love the memories we had together, but I still love my W, even though we are separating this week.<P>thl<P><BR>

Also, my W biggest fear was that I was thinking of the OW when we made love. I honestly never did.<P>Now, however, I find myself on the other side, and can see what is going on in my W's brain, since she said and did alot of the same things I did during the same time.<P>Deja vu? yes, in a wierd sort of way. We will see how this turns out.<P>thl<BR>

NoMas,<BR>I think the answer lies within you. If you put the OW in a treasured little place in your heart and nurture the memory daily, then you are going to hold on to what you label love.<P>If you attatch some negatives to the memory. If you look at the affair as vile and dirty and shameful, and the OW as having to contributed to corrupting your marriage, your integrity and your life, then maybe you could let go easier.<P>NoMas, I'm not saying you haven't done this, but I really can not recall any post that you have said anything really nice about your wife.<P>Now since you told her the truth and you are both living in your home, she must be human.<P>For her to go to school like she did, she must be ambitious, bright and a hard worker.<P>I am sure she has even more good qualities, but I don't think you are focusing on them. In fact, you may be dismissing them.<P>Please make a list of your wife's good qualities.