In my previous life I think I was a Yo-Yo... Wife came by last night to drop off some stuff. It was fine for the brief time she was there. Then, She said we have to talk..... My heart sank.<P>We sat down and she said she wanted to come clean with something, She said she has been thinking about why she called and said she was ready to work on us. She told me she did it because it was moral thing to do but that her heart and mind was telling her it was wrong. I'm not sure I buy that because the week before I saw her we had some really nice talks on the phone. Very nice, I felt close to her during those times. <P>She told me that she needs to start doing things for herself and not for others. She wants to start doing things that feel good, That includes not being with me. Ouch....<P>I broke down ( of course ) and she wanted to hug me. I don't know why. If she doesn't want to be with me then why would she want to comfort me. She also mentioned that she was pretty much only in joint counseling for me, So that I could understand where she is coming from. I asked her if this was her way of letting me down easy. She wasn't sure. After crying and getting some composure, I looked her square in the eyes and asked her if she wanted a divorce. She said right now, NO. <P>I started a verbal Plan B, I cannot endure this painful back and forth. If it is the OM that she thinks she wants, then I cannot compete. She is too far into fantasy land, He is just a different face but he has his faults just like me. I told her that I will go to our pre-scheduled couseling appointment. I told her I cannot sit back and be married to her while she has a boyfriend. No way. If we are to do couseling then it has to be just us two, Not three of us. She has until the 14th to decide. <P>Just before she left, I told her how sad this all was, I told her that it's too bad that I am now the man that she always wanted and that I am standing right in front of her and she is runnig the other way. She responded with " I don't know that." I explained to her to look at my actions over the past 5 months, That I was still here and still married to her. That should say a ton.<P>Thanks for listening........ <P><P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P>

Rutger -- I don't know what else to say other than I'm sorry.<P>It sounds to me like she is still caught up in the fantasy.<P>I'm at a loss as to what I can say which might help you, but if you want to talk, please feel free to E-Mail me.<P>I'll be praying for you.<P>God Bless

Thanks ES,<BR>Your support is greatly appreciated. I haven't given up completly but I am close.

Rutger -- I'm here if you need me. Don't give up hope just yet though.<P>God Bless

Hi Rutger<BR>I am sorry to hear this latest develpoment but we all know that no matter how much we hate the up and down it is par for the course. All I can offer is my support, if you need me you know where to find me. Again I am sorry, but hang tuff, she did say NO to a divorce right now..... I know you want to hear from her not now, not ever I love you, but if this is what she has to offer right now it is better that nothing which would have equalled a YES response to your question. Hang in there my friend, keep strong.<P>Jenny<P>------------------<BR>Where have all the cowboys gone ?<BR>Paula Cole<P><BR>

Good Morning, Rutger. <P> I am sorry. She's hanging right in there with all the typical behaviors. I know how hard it is on you.<P>I agree - she didn't say yes to the big D. You just have to figure out how much more of this you can take.<P>Be strong. I'm thinking of you and I'm here.<P>Lori<P>

Rutger,<P>Sounds very similar to my situation.<P>Don't<BR>give up!<P>I have changed my tactics. Begging pleadibg and crying didn't do anything to change W mind.<P>In a word SELFISH.<P>Total self-centeredness<P>I think the pain is too great for her to come home right now, it's easier to be w/OB.<P>I have decided to let her run herself completely into the ground with OB.<P>I KNOW I'm also becoming the man she always wanted.<P>Have you read SAA?<P>Quote: As long as an affair is ongoing reconciliation is hopeless.<P>Check out mu post on changeing attitudes also check out ThisAlex's post I think it's The I blew it one.<P>If you can't go to counceling w/W get her to continue alone.<P>Until the fantacy wears off we are kinda stuck.<P>I'm looking forward to finding out if my change in tactics will wrk. I think it will work alot better than what I'vr been doing.<P>Hang In,<BR>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Rutger,<P>Check out Sheryl's(NB's) recent threads...<P>You say you're starting a verbal Plan B...<BR>Why not a full Plan B?<P>Plan B is not the same as "hate your S"!<P>Best wishes.<P>Jim

Hi Jenny,<BR>Thanks for your thoughts. Good to hear from you, I hope all is well with you. Yes, your right. A no to divorce is better than yes so I guess there is still a bit of hope. I will hang tough as long as I can.<P>Lori,<BR>Good morning, Thank you. You know where I'm at. I'm still deciding how much more I can take, Strong or not.<P>Bill,<BR>I just finished "Love must be tough" by Dobson. Good book, It really is about letting go. Not giving up but giving her the freedom to choose what she wants in life. I know nothing more can be said by me, Its up to her now. I have done about all I can to show her who I am. Now, its her turn. I have been reading those posts. They all make sense and are very helpful. Thanks for your thoughts....<P>NSR,<BR>I will reread them, Thanks. I started my verbal Plan B because we still have one counseling session to go to next week. That is when she was to have decided by if she was willing to continue counseling without the OM. So I figure I will just leave her alone until then. That is what she wants anyway. I know Plan B is for me and there is no way I could ever hate her. Even after all of this, I still love her enough to want to grow old with her.......... Go figure.<P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P><BR>

Rutger<P>The reactions you are getting from your W are almost identical to those I received.<P>Your W<BR>Quote: Her heart and mind was telling her it was wrong <P>My W<BR>Quote: It has to feel right here (clutching her fist to her heart)<P>Your W<BR>Quote: I need to start doing things for myself and not for others<P>My W<BR>Quote: I am finally doing something for myself (is this the taker talking or what)?<P>Your W<BR>Quote: pretty much only in joint counseling for me, So that I could understand where she is coming from.<P>My W<BR>Quote: I don't need counseling but I think you could do with some, if you really want me to I will go with you.<P>Rutger are you sure our Ws aren't corresponding by email to get their stories correct?<P>It is no wonder that books on the subject are so definitive in the explanations of events as they are almost classical text book prose they come up with. Perhaps they all read these books on the quiet prior to the affair to get some ideas on what to say or do after discovery, ha, ha. <P>You don't mention in your posts, are there any children involved in your situation, I have a 11yr old D which makes Plan B a little difficult as she is living with W ?<P>regards<BR>Fairenough<BR>

Rutger,<P>My W still has doubts that i've changed my ways as well. Although i am the betrayed, I had much to do with the entire situation. I have changed many things about myself since discovery, but she is just now trusting me a little bit at a time to do the thngs that i should have been doing all along. Keep the faith my friend.

When people are involved in an affair, they get a 10 page handbook (don't know where. Haven't found it on amazon.com )on things to say & do. Read the posts here & most of the time quite a few have heard/seen the same thing. Also, almost every book I have read (quite a few!) goes along with this also.<P>Rutger, Hang tough guy. Sure it's difficult (what an understatement!) but it's something you have to (and will) do.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Fairenough,<BR>Amazing, Isn't it. I did mention to her that she was doing and saying things right out of the books that I was reading, She responded with "I'm glad that I am so predictable" She didn't like that..... No children involved, That would have so much harder to deal with. It does make it more difficult to go to Plan B with kids, There are numerous people here who have done it and are doing it. Seek their advice... Interesting point my friend brought up, What happens after Plan B ??? Those folk who did it and it didn't work have left the forum, They are no longer "Marriage Building" What to do then?????? I do have to try to look to the future, That is my nature..... Take care and we will talk soon......<P>Happy Again,<BR>I think deep down my W sees and believes the changes in me. She just doesn't want to admit it. I am hanging in there as much as I can.... Thanks for your thoughts.<P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P><BR>

Hey Chris,<BR>If you find the handbook can you forward it to me, So I know what to expect...... <P>I know we don't have a choice really, If we want to save our marriages we have to do this. Part of the rebuilding process..... Thanks for taking the time to reply, I know you are going through your own personal nightmare right now, Stay strong yourself and remember that we all are here. Thanks again

HI,<BR>it must be hard. You and my husband can give each other hands. I will explain you a little idea of what the woman feels since i am doing the same thing to my husband. 1) my english is not greart 2) i am only 22, so i got no mutch experience.<P>I am right now 10,000 km away from my husband with my lover fiance, because i am divorcing him to marry this guy. I have done the same thing to my husband, i have told him i want to make things right between us, than i say NO he is just out. i want my life alone and do things for me, not having to tell anyone what i do. I miss my husband, she miss you, i love my husband, she loves you, but.....<P>The big BUT the boyfriend, makes us feel diferent like if we were in a movie, everything is perfect, we do not have to worry about, counceling because there is no problem, no problem with sex, with nothing. So, i in my situation think, if i left him was for a reazon, because i did not had enough satisfaction, and u know what? we do not even know what the H!!! we are doing, we want both but at the mean time we do not want any. It is crazy you know, because one day i wake up and say, ok, this is it i am going back, than the next day i say, NOOO..... am i going crazy, "remember the times we had, the horrible sex, the mess up when we fought" " than i think,mmm... the nice times we had, the smiles in our faces"<P>My advice? pray, i am praying. At the mean time do not let your self down, try to understand one thing, we with all the betrying that we maight be doing, we are suffering probably more, since you know at least what you want in your life. YOU, want her. NOw, she is having a big problem she as well as me, have no clue what she wants.<P>Hope i had help you.<P>Take care.<P>Leticia.

Rutger, <P>I don't think you should go to Plan B yet. I know you're hurting. I know the pain seems unbearable. But, through this hurt and the intense pain, a new Rutger is formed. Fight through it with all you have. Give whenit doesn't seem like you can't. Rutger, your getting through to her. She's hugging you because she still has love for you. <P>Rutger <B>YOU CAN COMPETE</B>. In fact, I would say your doing one heck a great job. You have history on your side. I think your wife needs to see that you can make it through this by staying strong. The OM's fault will soon become evident. And when they do, that's when she will see that you can love her through everything.<P>Don't tell her you're the man she's always wanted. Let her realize that on her own. Give her every reason to choose you. No regrets Rutger. You can do this.<P>I'm with ya.<P>SHA <p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited December 07, 1999).]

Hey Guys<P>Don't know about anyone else but what Luticia has just posted is about the best explanation I have heard with respect to the betrayers point of view.<P>It goes a long way to explaining why it pays to hang in there as long as possible and rebuild those love bank deposits over a period of time so that you're ever increasingly a loving alternative to what the OP has to offer.<P>It also explains why most of the time when I want to "talk solutions" my W just wants to "talk and relax". Obviously trying to "sort things out" often has the opposite effect. <P>Each meeting perhaps should be just a general chat session, I don't know am I way off the track?<P>The only down side of course is that you never come near to control during this process until either the OP makes a big mistake or the betrayer has a massive change of heart.<P>This has certainly given me food for thought, thanks Luticia very enlightening.<P>Regards<BR>Fairenough <BR>

Leticia,<BR>Wow, Thank you for letting me see that side of the coin. While I can say that I do not agree with what you are doing, I do understand. It sounds as if you know that where you are is a fantasy. "A Movie", Sure everything is perfect but it is not reality..... Be careful of the damage that you are creating, It may be too much to overcome at a later date. You must think to the future..... Again, Thank you for being honest with me and how you feel. <P>SHA,<BR>Hey pal, I will stop trying to point out that I have changed. If she wants to see it, it will have to be when she is ready. I have been thinking about this alot. I feel that Plan B is the only way to reach her and help us. I can't sit by while she has a boyfriend and I feel as the more time goes by that I try to Plan A her, I push her further away. She needs to come back because she wants to work on us for real. Besides, "there can be no hope for reconcilliation while there is another party involved" We all know that. I have asked her repeatedly to give up her OM and she will not. I have tried to be there for her through out this and she will not take me up on my offers. When she does she says she does it for me and not for her. That hurt too much, The next time she want to try to work it out, It needs to be for real. <P>I don't doubt that she still loves me, But she also thinks she loves the OM. Therefor she is torn, On the fence....... Hard to compete when he is perfect and I am not in her mind. I have just run out of rope, I mentally cannot keep doing this back and forth. I love her, I want to make it work, And she knows that I am willing to do whatever it takes to do that. But she cannot have her cake and eat it too. I would be lying if I didn't have my doubts about what I am doing, The only thing is that I have tried everything else and it is not working, It is driving us further apart. And the worst thing is it really hurts....... I don't want to lose my love for her and I don't want there to be any more damage that is not repairable, And to be honest I getting to that threshold. As it sit right now, I can overcome what has happened. I may not be able to say that in a month or two if we continue doing what we are doing. Thanks for you concern, I always look forward to your thoughts.....<P>Fairenough,<BR>I agree, that is a fine explanation, She is ahead of many others. She is realizing that it is just a "Movie". For her, It may not be too late. But what about us, Do our spouses realize that what they are doing is just a temporary fix, A fantasy. Same problems, Different faces. Man, This whole thing is the hardest thing to go through. There are no right and wrong answers I guess. Just doing what you feel is right. I want to save my marriage, That feels right to me. I just wish I knew how.<P><P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P><BR>

Well....... I missed her, I called her just to say HI and see how she was doing. She sounded good, Sounded like she was in an OK mood. Good to hear her voice and I got relief in knowing that she was doing ok. I just wanted to talk with her, Nothing specific just talking. We did venture a little into "us". <P>She doesn't know if she wants me to stop calling her or not. She also isn't sure if she is going to the couseling appointment on the 14th. She said the last one was to emotionally traumatic. <P>I thought it was also but I though we got alot of stuff out in the open. It felt good to talk about some stuff. I told her I would talk to her in a couple of days and she said that was fine. So I guess I'll give her some space to think about things, Hopefully she won't cancel our appointment because I think it is a forum for gaining some ground for the both of us. Again, Thanks for listening...... <P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P><BR>

Rutger, old friend -- Haven't posted to you in a while, but have been thinking about you a lot. What you said about her reticence about going to the counseling got me to thinking. I'm wondering(and really betting) if she is concerned about the counseling because she is afraid to face her own demons and not afraid of dealing with you.<P>You know that it's always easier to face someone else than it is to face ourselves. I don't have any real good advice to give, but I will just send some mental vibes her way to try to convince her to attend the therapy. She really needs it, even more than the marriage. By the way, your W's name isn't the same as mine is it(Eggo -- for waffles)?