I haven't been here for awhile because the OW was several months ago and I thought I was "dealing" with it. Well, just 4 months later, and guess what: it's a new OW! Oh, but this one (#5) is really special. He's so in love with her and can't give her up, although he "has no reason to believe that they'll make love again" (his words). She's back with her husband and daughter, though she and my H maintain daily contact. Roll call of how many of you grant me the "Most Foolish and Disillusioned Betrayed Spouse of the Year."<P>Anyway, in my counseling with Steve this morning (yes, folks, over $2K in counseling fees and he's been unfaithful the entire time), he suggested that I proceed immediately with Plan B. Can any of you veterans give me some pointers? Any advice would be appreciated.<P>Thank you.<P>------------------<BR>"Some women wait for something to change and nothing does change so they change themselves." Audre Lorde<BR>

Not sure I am any expert, but it sure does sound like your husband needs some kind of wake up call. If he is going to continue having affairs, do you want to be married to him? Sounds like he is not willing to commit to a marriage. If I were you and knew about the affair, I would definately go plan B. Kick him out and cut him off. It would be tough to do if your a stay at home mom, but there must be some way to do it. You deserve better treatment than what he is giving you.<P>Good luck and much strength.

Thanks, TimJ, for your reply. I am, in fact, a stay-at-home mom, so kicking him out is a difficult proposition. I'm currently exploring some options but it's all so frightening. I know that I need to relinquish my role as his doormat...I just wish my toddler and baby didn't have to pay the price.<P>------------------<BR>"Some women wait for something to change and nothing does change so they change themselves." Audre Lorde<BR>

Faithfully,<BR> I am also a stay at home mom with a three year old and a 7 month old. My H started an affair when I was 7 months pregant. The affair ended a month after our daughter was born. I can understand you not wanting to be divorced and I can also understand the money issues and the effects on the children. However it is not good to let your children watch you hurt and feel this much pain. You want more for your children and you need more for yourself. Do you have a basement where your H can live, a spare room? Tell him that you need to set a plan in motion so that each parent will get time with the children and that the children are not to be with OP. Three or four nights including weekends, let him have the children. Don't make him dinner, don't do his laundry, don't make his lunch, don't even buy food for him. Have the checkbook where you both know how much money is in it and have as little communication as possible. Everyone here will support you whenever you need them. Monique

My heart goes out to you and your family. This really SUX doesn't it! You definitely need to do a Plan B. It is going to be hard as hell emotionally and financially, but it is time that you become the STRONG PERSON/PARENT that your children desperately need! THEY NEED A BETTER ROLE MODEL, or else they will see the treatment that their father is giving their mom and may do the same in their relationship pattern. Don't only do it for the kids, but for your MENTAL SANITY! This guy wouldn't know REAL LOVE if a map was drawn out for him! Life is too short to waste on unworthy people. Like you said yourself in the topic....HOW MANY TIMES!

<BR>You're going to have to draw a boundary in there somewhere. Otherwise it looks like your rather interesting husband is just going to keep walking all over you. I think a little self-caring would be in order. I don't think you should let somebody else do something this unacceptable to you.<BR>

I certainly appreciate the time all of you took to respond to my post. But I must say this. PLEASE PEOPLE! I can get the "time you stand up for yourself" speech anywhere. What I was hoping to find here, especially here, is some compassion...maybe even laudation..for my attempts to "keep the faith" and hold my family together. In Plan B, Hope and Faith in the restoration of the marriage are not unheard of.<P>I KNOW what he's doing is wrong, cruel, inappropriate, and inexcusable. I KNOW that chances of rebuilding are pretty grim. But if ever there was a place where I hoped to get some support, some understanding, and maybe some guidance; this is that place. Since finding out about this latest affair, I've largely avoided speaking with those people who are apt to remind me of what a rat H is and tell me how justified I'd be to--nay, how negligent I'd be to not--leave him. Isn't MB all about surmounting the seemingly insurmountable? Or is everyone saying that it works for others, just not my case?<P>I'm not trying to criticize...I just need some empathy.<P>------------------<BR>"Some women wait for something to change and nothing does change so they change themselves." Audre Lorde<BR>

Perhaps next time if you have such a clear idea of what sort of response you would find acceptable, you could let us know in advance.

Hi, Faithfully.<P>How painful this must be for you, so sorry that you've had to endure this type of behavior from your husband. You know, he's going to have to address those issues (has he been in counseling?) at some point in order for the marriage to even start healing. The new OW, what a tough one. It doesn't sound like it's the OW, it's his constant need for something different and maybe unattainable, and this won't change unless he takes those steps that need to be taken.<P>Although I have no experience with Plan B, it certainly sounds like it would be your best bet. Have you discussed with him starting counseling if he hasn't done so already? He sounds like he is just "in love" with new feelings, not with anyone in particular, in reading what you've written. I know you already know that his affairs have nothing to do with you, but he truly needs to seek help. Maybe it's time for him to see what living without you would be like. You have been through so much, my heart does truly go out to you.<P>

Faithfully,<P>I think it is lot easier to post tough actions to other peoples problems than it is to act that way to someone you love. I think that you have been doing what you can and are trying to do what is best for your children. <P>Wish there was more that could be said.<P>Good luck again.

Faithfully,<BR> I am sorry if my post bothered you. I have thought about what it would be like without my H and I decided to stay and work on our marriage and at the time it was what he wanted also. I never went into plan B, so I don't know what it is like. I do know that many people here have had lots of good response with plan B.<BR> This must be very hard for you and I can not image the pain you are in. I hope that you find what you need here. Monique

Thank you, Connor, TimJ, and Monique, for your kind words. Yes, I am in so much pain that it seems unbearable. H and I started discussing the separation last night (he had already met with OW and looked at some apartments). It was awful. He was so business-like and self-centered: "So what about visitation? I figure by the time the baby's a year old he can do overnights." This is the same baby that was in my womb while H was with OW#4...as I said, the pain seems almost unbearable.<P>A friend has told me to take this one day...or less..at a time. It's hard to do that. I know that H is already looking forward to the day he files for divorce. And all I can think about is how my little girl and baby boy won't even have a Daddy around for Christmas.<P>The purpose of this separation for my part is, I guess, to protect any feelings of love I may have for H, as well as any faith or hope I still have for marital recovery. In my mind, I know this makes sense. But in my heart, it feels so final and WRONG. It's exactly what he wants: the freedom to do as he pleases, when he pleases, and with whom he pleases. Visitation with his kids is guaranteed by law, as is 50% of his income. Just what is he supposed to "suffer" from this separation? He's already made it painfully clear that I have nothing that he wants. "Relieved" was his word for how he feels about our parting. I am SO afraid of divorce.<P>Thank you, everyone, for letting me write.<P>------------------<BR>"Some women wait for something to change and nothing does change so they change themselves." Audre Lorde<BR>

Faithfully,<BR> What I think will happen is that if you act like you don't care about him - that will be hard and hurt like nothing you have ever gone through. He will relieze that OW doesn't hold a candle to you. He needs to see that on his own and that is why you shouldn't give up on your marriage. It will hit him about his children not having a dad on Christmas, but maybe not in time. Right now he is being selfish and not thinking with his head or heart. Even my husband didn't think about the effects the affair would have on the family or if we divorced what would happen. The horrible thing is that he hurt you and the family and now it seems like he is getting everything he wants. But since you are giving him the chance to explore (for lack of a better word) he will discover on his own what a wonderful person you are and how important his family is. Give him the kids on nights, yes even the baby. Let him get up all night with her, let him deal with poopy diapers. Do you know anything about OW? Does she have any children or work full time, do you know how old she is? Not that it is important, just do you think that she is ready to support him like you do? An affair is filled with mystery and fantasy. Do you think that she will wash his dirty underware or do you think he will feel comfortable enough to be himself around her. I know that I asked my H after the affair about being himself around her and he couldn't even image that. They don't know each other and nothing will compare to what you have with him. Give them time to crash, it will happen. Hope I was helpful. Monique<p>[This message has been edited by Monique (edited December 08, 1999).]

Faithfully,<P>I think I understand your fears too.<P>I am taking in all that people have said... and I've said these words to others too, although I too am still in Plan A. I have a tentative schedule to go to Plan B after the holidays. I hope to get the kind of encouragement here that your getting now... and are dreading... It is the right way to go.<P>You are right when you said your head knows this is the way to go... just starting off is so scarey...<P>Prayers for you and your kids... <BR>Prayers for your H to see the light!<P>Jim

Faithfully,<P>I am pretty sure your husband will be suffering from guilt. What he is doing to you and your children is selfish and wrong. He will be feeling guilty. He will likely mask his guilt by blaming you. Saying things like "the marriage was never any good", "I never loved you", etc. He may also try to harbor anger against you as a way to justify what he is doing. Listen to you head and not you heart and don't take what he says serious. It sounds like your head knows what you are doing and understands whats going on. I think I know how you feel about how cold your husband is about moving out and figuring out his schedule with the kids. My wife did that to me when she moved out. When he moves out, reality will eventually hit him. You are in reality. Keep it up and don't worry about what you are doing or him. Take care of you. Get some help watching the kids if you need it. Don't be afraid to get some help from grandparents, reletives, friends, etc. Don't worry about embarressing him by letting other people know what he is doing. That is part of the reality he needs to face. <P>Anyway good luck and be strong and take care of yourself.

I can understand your frustration and pain, but I can't understand your continued tolerance of an individual who seems to have no regard for you, your feelings, or your children. Yes, you have heard many things before, but it's not sinking in. <P>You "want"compassion and pity, you don't need them. What you need is to wake up and see that your H is not responding and that Plan B is just his ticket out. <P>What you need to do is get him to let you know "WHY" he does what he does and then see if you can work on changing that. <P>Two thousand dollars is a lot of money to spend on counseling just to have it end up with #5. Obviously, someone isn't listening.<P>You don't sound like you have been married very long and your H has already had 5 affairs. That has to be telling you something about you and your relationship with him. <P>Did yo choose to get pregnant again while knowing of #3 or #4? <P>I'm sorry for sounding a bit harsh but perhaps you should consider viewing your situation from a different perspective. Make out like one of your friends is suffering the same thing you are. What response would you give her? What advice would you offer? And how long would you expect for her to continue to "keep the faith".<P>You know, sometimes a pat on the head and a kick in the a@@ is better than just a pat on the head.<P>Again, I apologize. It's just difficult to see people suffer and not do anything about it.<P> <P>------------------<BR>PW<BR>

So many replies and so little time! Thank you, people. PW, you asked a lot of pointed questions to which I feel compelled to respond. Here goes.<P>We've worked with Dr. Harley and I know, at least in part, "why" H does what he does. I'm not meeting his most important emotional need in the most fulfilling ways. That last part is the key. The "most fulfilling ways" of meeting his sexual need are, to put it nicely, unappealing to me. For nearly all 5 years of our marriage, H has been pressuring me to "do the things I used to do" with him, even though I confessed to him that those things made me feel debased and humiliated. Now, are you suggesting that I should do them anyway? Yes, PW, I've shouldered the blame for not validating or meeting his emotional needs. I've owned to the fact that my past actions contributed to an environment in which affairs were possible. And I've worked like H*** to control any LB since Day One with Dr. Harley.<P>Regarding our counseling with Dr. Harley, we didn't waste $2K on counseling "just to have it wind up with #5." That affair predates our counseling by about a week. This is not just about my failure to live up to the actions and modifications set forth by Dr. Harley. I may not have done a perfect job, but even my H grants that I did quite well in my part of the program. My H entered into counseling while he was in love with a new OW. He lied to Dr. Harley and everyone else about the nature of their relationship. Please tell me how I was supposed to know that at the time.<P>No, I did not "choose" to get pregnant during any of his affairs. At the time our second child was conceived (unplanned), I was aware of only one emotional affair and one "near-affair." As it turns out, he was on #3 at the time. These were not revealed to me until after we began counseling with Dr. Harley.<P>Perhaps I've been unclear, PW. Perhaps I've given the impression that my H has been telling me for years that he doesn't love me and wants out. While that is true, he has ALSO been telling me that he doesn't want to leave; that he wants to learn how to love me again; that he doesn't want to hurt me anymore and is REALLY going to try this time. It's not as though he's never fanned the flame of my hope! Two weeks after starting with Harley he was ecstatically happy with me...I was "Love" and "Sweetheart" again for a few days.<P>My a@@ has been kicked quite enough, thank you. I'm not looking for outpourings of sympathy here. I KNOW he did wrong by me and our children. I'm just saying that I believe it would be equally wrong to give up all hope on him and write him off as a loser. It's quite possible that this particular leopard can never change his spots. I accept that. But what if he can?<P>I'm getting out. I'm severing all contact with him unless or until he demonstrates by his actions that he's ready to follow the rules. What more do you want?<P>------------------<BR>"Some women wait for something to change and nothing does change so they change themselves." Audre Lorde<BR>

Faithfully, I don't have any advice to offer. I too opted to become a housewife (formerly a CPA with a great career) and have a 4 and 2 year old. From what I've read, I admire you. My biggest fear is that he may do it again. There were two before I knew anything. I am becoming very vulnerable again as my feelings for him get stronger, and there are certainly no guarantees.<P>But I don't think one can meet their h's emotional needs when the h is in withdrawal, much less involved with someone.Things are going very well for us now (my post on good news), but when I started I focused more on his needs that also helped me. Ex. wearing make-up more, staying with my workout, etc. Can't say what you should do with your h, but MAKE SOME TIME FOR YOU. I have been doing that for the 1st time in 6 years during these last 6 weeks. I feel much stronger and sure of myself. Before I was tied to my kids 24 by 7 days BY MY OWN CHOICE. My h even supported the idea of pre-school, hiring help; I'm the one who wanted to do it all myself. Is it just me? Or do we women like to make martyrs of ourselves??<P>------------------<BR>hoping<P><BR>

Faithfully:<P>I apologize for getting a bit strong. I fear I have little or no understanding of women sometimes. <P>I thought my W was not meeting my needs (much like your H's needs, I suppose) and I became close with a very good friend of my W's. She was devastated and she left for a while to spend time with her OM whom she insists is just a close friend and nothing more. I never did anything "inappropriate" with her friend and she claims she did nothing inappropriate either. By the way, she took all of her stuff with her to her "friends" home (1200 miles away), where she remained for about three weeks. <P>I asked her to come back and patch things up. She came back. That was over a year ago. In that time I have not had one single bit of contact with the OW in any way, shape, or form. I have wanted to just make my marriage work. In that same amount of time, my W has chosen not to be intimate with me in anyway, except for a couple of really bad "B" movie moments when she would hysterically try to force me to "take" her (whatever that means). <P>Meanwhile I have been thoughtful and considerate, even tried a little romantic thought or two (cards, Flowers, dinners, etc). So far nothing in return. <P>By the way, it's been over thirteen months since she came back and all of her "stuff" is still in the OM place. She claims she hasn't even had contact with him in over nine months, but her 'stuff' is still there. <BR>She lives out of a suitcase a couple of drawers in a small chest in a corner of the bedroom. She won't even hang stuff in "our" closet.<P>Oh, she cooks good meals and does the laundry and always has my shirts neatly pressed and our home is always very clean and tidy. She believes that's what "good little wives" do. I try to explain that those aren't really my "most" pressing needs, but to no avail <P>I believe I've done my share but she hasn't even begun to try to see it my way. And I don't believe she has tried to do the things she knows she should be doing. She knows what my needs are and she chooses not to meet them. I'm talking about the most basic sexual needs here. I'm not talking about anything kinky, debased, or humiliating. I would just like for her to participate in the activities which seemed to give her so much pleasure in the past. I'm talking about just plain "normal" basic stuff. OK, I'll settle for an unsolicited hug and kiss, alright. Is that too much to ask for.<P>The point is, that I'm still there, trying, and waiting for her to come around. I'm not on #2 or #3, etc. But sometimes I feel like she would rather I be somewhere else.<P>You said:<P>--------------------------------------------<BR>The "most fulfilling ways" of meeting his sexual need are, to put it nicely, unappealing to me. For nearly all 5 years of our marriage, H has been pressuring me to "do the things I used to do" with him, even though I confessed to him that those things made me feel debased and humiliated. Now, are you suggesting that I should do them anyway? <BR>-----------------------------------------<BR>Please bear with me because you sound so much like my W I really would like to ask you about this. No need for specifics, OK. I just need to know why you felt "debased and humilated but still "did" those things? <P>My W never told me how she felt about certain things until 20 years or more had gone by. The fact is that she did things and believe me, she was good at them, and NOW she says they made her feel bad. I bet you never told your H how you felt when you were doing those things initially, did you? <P>Also, I was always of the opinion that anything that a H and W did in the privacy of there own home or bedroom was just fine in the sight of God and man alike. I could never, and still don't, understand the debasement and humiliation part. How can that be between people who "love" each other.<BR>Besides, I certainly would not think of having an affair because my W didn't want to indulge in a few bedroom antics, no matter how pleasurable they were to me. So I can't understand it if your H is having these affairs "simply" because you weren't the versatile bedmate of his dreams.<P>Anyway, I'm still hanging in there, waiting. Waiting seems to be what I do best.<P>I'm sorry I got carried away, but you, better than most, know the feeling of trying and not succeeding. <P>Maybe you can give me a clue as to what goes on in a women's mind. Although I have had plenty of time to work on it, I just haven't been able to figure it out.<P>Thanks for listening.<P><BR>------------------<BR>PW<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Patiently Waiting (edited December 08, 1999).]