FC,<BR>I'm not going to say anything you don't already know but just a reminder of a thought or two;<P>* I know that your husband has angered and disappointed you but what about focusing on him, his needs, the baby and the baby's needs. (I too, hated and despised my husband when I didn't get my needs met) <P>**BUT....A really interesting thing happened when I began focusing on his needs....he then began to meet my needs (I became truly happy again in our relationship again ) and I wonder if that might help you focus less on the OM and more towards your husband and family????? (both of us experienced periods of selfishness and now....we're both experiencing periods of SELFLESSNESS)<P>Lastly, please give your family a chance... a complete chance, a 100 % chance. If that doesn't work.....get out.....It is only then, that I believe, you will be able to reconcile the decision to be with the OM or another person. <P>You, your husband and your child deserve to be in a HEALTHY, THRIVING, loving relationship. <P>good luck - Tina

FC,<BR> You know something? I think you've got this romantic picture in your head of how both you and OM are pining away for each other when actually, you may be the only one pining away.<BR> If I understand this correctly, OM is a lond distance away from you and going to college, right?<BR> It wouldn't surprise me one bit if he isn't going out with women on a regular basis and having the time of his life. Would you really still think so highly of him if he wasn't living as though he was miserable without you?<BR> No joke. If he really cared about you and your son, he would be raising all-might hell to get to where you are. Oh, sure, he talks a good game about trying to respect your wishes, but suppose he's just thrilled to death that your H has taken on the financial and parental responsibility for your child. It sure lets him off the hook, doesn't it? In the meantime, he keeps you stringing along by telling you how much he loves you when he does contact you, and probably figures that he's keeping his options open for being able to see his son when and if he wants to see him.<BR> I have my problems with my H for sure, but one thing I know is this: There is NOTHING that would EVER keep him away from his children---even if he didn't want to stay married to me. We have a former in-law who does not visit his child more than a couple of times a year or support his child unless child support finds out where he's working (he works "under the table," mainly.) He only lives about 25 miles away, and claims to not have a way to our town. However, he's often been seen in our town, in the prime location to buy drugs, and also has no hang-ups about hitchhiking to wherever else he wants to go. My H told him that if he loved his child, he'd wade through knee-deep horse s*** to see him every chance he could. And, that is the absolute truth.<BR> So, I think if I were you and thinking of how "perfect" this guy is, I'd also be wondering what in the hell he was doing with himself in the meantime. Chances are that he is NOT thinking of you nearly as much as you are thinking of him.<BR> I'm sorry if this is too blunt and hurtful for you, but I think that you just do not want to let go of the fantasy. You seem to be thinking that being with OM is the only way you'll be happy, and that is not true. You must first figure out how to make yourself happy---without depending on some man to do it for you.<BR> So, why not check out the OM? You may need to talk with your H about it (not easy, I know), but tell your H that you need to know that the OM is not sitting around waiting for you so that you can give up the fantasy and get on with your life, preferably with your H.<BR> You really do need to quit hanging on to the fantasy. And, I think that maybe you need to get a little tougher with your H. Maybe you and he have some old unfinished business (HIS affair) to clear up before you can really start to rebuild.<BR>

Why would you want to hate the OM? How can you hate someone you crave so fondly all day long? How can you hate someone who finally rained on the dry parched ground of your marital desert? How can you hate someone who continues to stir heights of emotion that your husband can't begin to compare with?<P>You hate the fact that you feel this way about him knowing all the time that it's inappropriate and destroying you.<P>That's enough to hate right there. Why bother with trying to learn to hate him?<BR>

Sorry the reply is long over due. I had the good fortune of starting back to work this week. I am a teacher and the summer afforded far too much free time for my mental well being. Anyway, with the start of school came some craziness, but I’m here to reply now. BTW, I posted this reply on the two “hate” posts for those who may look there instead of here. <P>About my hate for OM: As the post “I’ll hate him if it kills me” shows, I’ve managed to tap into some pretty powerful emotions centered on the anger from my pain in loving OM. I recently read that the term “hate” is derived from the Greek term meaning “grief stemming from loss.” As grieving the loss of a loved one involves an anger stage, I feel pretty healthy in my anger (as long as it does not last forever). I know my anger is of a forced nature, but the bottom line is that I have reached a point where I need to retreat and protect my heart. Loving OM was killing me, so hating him is what I have to do. Thought I do still love him, and the hate is manufactured, the hate is easier for me to take right now. My hate is pretty intense, as many of you noted, but I’ll manage with it okay.<P>Sweetpea.<BR>Well, at first your reply made me very angry at YOU! But then I decided that it was pretty good “hate” material and I let it seep into my heart. I adopted your opinions for a day or two and the anger and fury those opinions brought on fueled my letter of hate to OM. Thanks for your reply because it really has helped me to be angry and hateful toward OM. The fact is that I believe I need to hate him. Don’t be sorry for being blunt – it was very helpful this time. If you didn’t read my letter of hate in the other post, please do. I hope you don’t mind seeing some familiar thoughts there.<P>Fighter,<BR>Your advice to see OM, as a real person with faults is good, except here is how I’ve always felt about that: I loved his faults because his faults made him real to me. And if he was real, then I wasn’t dreaming! Sick, ugh. I’m in this pretty deep. I still think I need a reason to hate him. Actually, I think I need some time (and that is so hard for me to deal with) to get out of love with OM and to try and go back to H with my heart. Time, ugh now I’m telling myself that I need time. It seems to pass so slowly in recovery.<P>Cuckold,<BR>You said, “How can you hate someone who finally rained on the dry parched ground of your marital desert?” Ironic word choice, Cuckold. I once wrote a letter to OM and in it I wrote, “into my dry and empty heart, a barren wasteland, you brought sweet rain.”<BR>You suggested not trying to “learn” to hate him. I wish I didn’t have to learn that, but I do. I have to choose to hate him, choose to love H, and choose to be away from OM and with H. NONE of those choices come easily or naturally for me. They are all acts of reason and will. I hope someday the feeling of love for H reenters my heart.<P>Tina,<BR>Choosing to be with H, at this time, is, as you urged, the last 100% effort. No, I’ve not come to the place where I can give 100% YET! The only way I will get there is by being here and working at it, little by little. H is far from giving 100% either. I am giving him the time to get there too. This is not to say I don’t grow frustrated, or feel pain and anger in the process of getting there, but I am here and trying. You wisely suggested that I try focusing on his needs and the baby’s needs, rather than mine. I focus A LOT on the baby’s needs. I am not really able to meet H’s needs very well at this time. In fact, part of what lead to the affair was years of meeting H’s needs and having my needs go unmet. My “need bank” was totally tapped – bone dry when I met OM. I just flat out gave up and stopped meeting H’s needs because I was tired of doing that. I know I need to try again now. My “giver” just isn’t here. As a matter of fact, my “taker” even finds it hard to be here. I am saying that I find it just as hard to take from H as I find it to give. I don’t really want his attention or affection because I don’t believe or trust it right now. This is going to take some time. I am trying to meet my H’s need for sex and conversation. Though I don’t enjoy either with him. Conversations with him are shallow and “small talk.” He does not want to talk about anything emotional. When I have sex with him, I am going through the motions. I allow him the “pleasure” he needs in sexual “release” but that is about all I can offer. He isn’t a very good lover so I don’t really care to have sex with him, but if it works for him, I can service him. I don’t have any desire to make love to him because I feel about as close to him as I do to a total stranger. I know that sounds terribly shallow, but it is his need, not mine. I need to make love. We don’t do that; we have sex. Always have, always will. I’ve tried making love to him; he is about as good a lover as a wet blanket. It is terribly unsatisfying to “make love” to a man who isn’t a passionate lover.<P>SHA,<BR>I appreciate your encouragement. You are a very different man than my H is. You have done wonderful things for your w. Most wonderful is your desire to really talk and heal with her. My H is so closed up; he is so protected, that I can’t get close to him. He hasn’t tried to do the things you have done. He does not want to just “give” as you do. He wants to be given to. That is how it has been for many years, and I have accepted that he will never change. Let me give you an example – kind of personal – but very to the point. Last week, H started making advances toward me (remember we had a moratorium on sex). I gave in because I never say no. However, he said he just wanted to please me and make me feel good. “Okay,” I said, “then please go and shave.” He did. Then I asked him to please perform oral sex. He does not like to do that and he isn’t good at it. I told him, in explicit detail, exactly how to do it (I’ve told him 1,000 times before). Finally he did it right (of course since then he is back to his old unsatisfying way of doing it). Anyway, I “reached the Promised Land” and then said, “H, that was great! If you really wanted to please me, and it wasn’t just for you, then I’d really appreciate it if you would just put your arms around me and we could go to sleep.” He did. I HAVE NEVER DONE THAT BEFORE! Of course there was no discussion of the moratorium, and the next night he was firm with expectations of getting his. He always gets his “O” and I usually don’t’ (enter the wash machine). He seems disappointed that I don’t enjoy it, but it sure as hell doesn’t stop him from getting his, and he easily gives up on me. He doesn’t ask how I feel about sex; he doesn’t listen when I tell him what I like. I stopped telling him how to touch and please me because I felt like I was giving directions and he wouldn’t listen. Gee, just like a man, he won’t take directions, let alone stop and ask for them, and god knows he won’t follow the freaking map! Sorry, I just vented there.<P>Rob, I guess I’m not really in touch with the concept of Satan. I suppose I also feel that God has hardened his heart to me and that I am in Satan’s possession. I feel like I am so far from God. I have taken a view of God as an evil, angry being who revels in giving me desires and in denying me what I want. Come on, if this god is so wonderful, why did he create people who want things they can’t have? Why did he create evil – or a devil? If he didn’t create these things, then who did? I thought he had control over everything? If he is up there, if he has “control” why does he let evil things happen to good people? Why, when I call to him does he refuse to listen? Where the hell is he? If God is so “loving” then where was he all of those months that I, on my face, shouted out for him to please help me and to guide me? Where is he in the midst of all of the others on this board who are crying out to him for comfort and he denies it? Why would a good god make people who have the natural propensity toward evil? Why doesn’t he just squelch out evil? Of course I know you don’t have all of the answers to these questions, but they are the questions that haunt me when I think of surrendering to this “God.”<P>Faith, hope, love,<BR>You advised, “God can take your anger, just don't turn your back on the One who can help you.” I suppose I could use a heap of prayers here. As you can see from the paragraph prior, my faith is all but gone. I am really moving to an emotional place where I don’t want anything to do with God. Prayers appreciated.<P>Tamis,<BR>I’ve become a bit anti anti-depression. I went on Zoloft for a while. At first it made me feel giddy. Then it annihilated my sex drive. Then I went on Valium. It made me a Zombie, it affected my son (still breast-feeding) and it also killed the sex drive. Also, on the Zoloft, I was so happy and friendly to everyone that I sent out some bad messages to my students (adult male Marines). Being friendly and happy (giddy from meds), made me appear flirty and that was not good. Marines, who rarely see a woman, get turned on if you smile, even if it isn’t at them. Anyway, for those and other reasons, I am not on anti- depression meds. I do know that I am depressed and I am hoping that time and therapy will help.<P>Shoni,<BR>I am starting to think that it is impossible for H to meet my needs. I think that I have very big needs and his ability to meet them is very weak. It is a double whammy. I wonder what one does when they know their spouse cannot meet their needs? Settle? Leave? I fear my tendency is to do both at the same time. Settle, and keep my “life” here, but leave with my heart (and in the case of OM, my body as well). I wonder if I am sick. You know, emotionally sick in some way. Does your H meet your needs? <P>Janice,<BR>I feel just like you do! What’s an ICQ?<P>Maya,<BR>I appreciate your posts, they always make me think because I know you have “been there.” I think I need to read your profile again because I seem to have forgotten the details of your story. You have been around for me since the very first post and I deeply appreciate that. When did it start to ease up for you? Do you love your H again? Do you love him as much as you loved OM?<P>K,<BR>Do you get a kickback from Harley? Does he give you one free session for each new client you send him? =) I don’t really think I want to call Steve. I didn’t like the phone call we had on the radio show and I don’t feel comfortable with the idea of phone sessions. Also, H refuses to talk to a counselor. Also, Dr. H has very strong feelings about affairs involving children and I don’t agree with him on the issue of keeping the biological father out of the child’s life. I absolutely do not agree with that.<P>BB,<BR>You have clearly articulated my fears about my feelings for OM. But, I don’t know what else do but hate him. I am having a difficult time focusing on the positives in my marriage because they just aren’t enough to make me happy. Part of the problem in my marriage is my love for OM. I am preoccupied with that love and so I am trying to either forget or hate OM. I feel I have to be deliberate in forcing him out of my heart. If I don’t do that I’ll love him forever and then I’ll never be able to be settled with H again. This is really difficult!<P>Sad4now,<BR>What is an ICQ and how can I contact someone that way?<BR>

FC,<BR>Thanks for responding. I know you are in a great deal of pain and confusion. I am praying that God will alleviate the majority of it. I don't think He will eliminate it until after judgement day when Satan will have no more powers.<P>I will now try with the help of the Holy Spirit address your questions.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Rob, I guess I’m not really in touch with the concept of Satan. I suppose I also feel that God has hardened his heart to me and that I am in Satan’s possession.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>God loves you first and foremost. What He is revealing to me is that you want to know Him better. I know you are angry with HIm from the things that you say. However, He still loves you and does speak to you. It is that we want to run the show and are easily swayed by Satan. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I feel like I am so far from God. I have taken a view of God as an evil, angry being who revels in giving me desires and in denying me what I want.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I would agree that you had veered from Him but He is calling you back to Himself. The good feelings you feel were meant to give you pleasure. However, it is Satan who is saying that you should want selfishly. When we don't do things God's way we are being selfish. I will discuss this later when I respond to God creating evil.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Come on, if this god is so wonderful, why did he create people who want things they can’t have?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>God gave Lucifer AKA Satan an incredible amount of power which he still has. It is because he still has these powers that you want the things that you can't have. Satan is the father of all lies. Most of the time it is difficult for us to distinguish when it is Satan or GOd that is doing something particularly when we are babes in Christ. Satan knows far more than all the people combined. He always goes after those areas of our lives where we are weakest because after that he can consume us like a roaring lion.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Why did he create evil – or a devil? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>He created Lucifer who was good until he became selfish and decided that he would be bigger and better than God. It was Lucifer's pride that created sin and evil. God made the potential for evil to come into existence. He did not create it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If he didn’t create these things, then who did?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> See answer to previous question.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I thought he had control over everything? If he is up there, if he has “control” why does he let evil things happen to good people?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>He doesn't want us to be automotons. Evil things happen to good people because we choose to do the evil. We choose to be selfish which is what Satan wants us to do.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Why, when I call to him does he refuse to listen? Where the hell is he? If God is so “loving” then where was he all of those months that I, on my face, shouted out for him to please help me and to guide me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He is listening to you always. He knows all of our thoughts before we think them. He always gives us a way out though sometimes we don't take it. I can attest to that because I have almost taken the wrong path here lately because I have been feeling very vulnerable to wanting to have my own affair. Sometimes His answer is for you to wait. Sometimes He answers immediately just as we do when someone asks us a question that we aren't ready to answer yet because the other person is not yet ready for the answer we have to give them.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Where is he in the midst of all of the others on this board who are crying out to him for comfort and he denies it? Why would a good god make people who have the natural propensity toward evil?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>He is there; we just sometimes lose our focus on what is truly important. He gave us free will to chose who we want to direct our path: Him or Satan. We have a natural propensity to do evil because we don't fully understand the ramifications of what we are doing. We are like babies who go around touching and tasting everything until we learn that some things are bad for us. What comes to mind is my youngest: when He was 1.5 he learned what hot was on the shelf in the oven. After that he never touched anything that we said was hot.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why doesn’t he just squelch out evil? Of course I know you don’t have all of the answers to these questions, but they are the questions that haunt me when I think of surrendering to this “God.”<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He is going to squelch out evil but not until after judgement day. It is all in the Bible. I thought I would not be able to answer some of your questions. I am certain that the Holy Spirit lead me to be able to answer your questions. I think our dialogue is the dialogue that you have been looking to get from God. He uses everyone and everything to communicate with us. I feel that we just don't listen to Him as we we don't always listen to each other.<P><BR>When you do surrender to Him completely, you will experience the perfect peace and eternal joy. He is truly wonderful. Satan wants us to think that He is a mean nasty God when He really isn't.<P>I am still praying for you. He lead me to this website to help me heal my pain and get through this ugly mess.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

fc:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do you get a kickback from Harley? Does he give you one free session for each new client you send him? =) I don’t really think I want to call Steve. I didn’t like the phone call we had on the radio show and I don’t feel comfortable with the idea of phone sessions. Also, H refuses to talk to a counselor. Also, Dr. H has very strong feelings about affairs involving children and I don’t agree with him on the issue of keeping the biological father out of the child’s life. I absolutely do not agree with that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Just to clarify.<P>No kickback (drat!!!).<P>You didn't talk to Steve on the radio show---you talked to Dr. Harley (Willard), his dad. The radio show format is a little strange, and having done it once myself, that's not what the counseling should be like.<P>Steve is a very good counselor. I don't actually know what his "beliefs" are on having the OM involved with the baby---I'm sure that he believes that marital recovery is best with no contact, but he's not going to force an opinion down your throat. He's going to teach you skills to use so that you and your husband can reach the agreement together on how you handle the OM.<P>I know that your husband "doesn't want to"---but that isn't a good excuse (for himself or for you). You should go---I bet that you'll be able to draw him into participating. And what do you have to lose---the counseling isn't that expensive.<P>You should also consider going on antidepressants again. I suggest Wellbutrin if Zoloft made you giddy. Tell your Dr. that Dr. K told him to... the only contraindication would be if you have previously suffered from seizures.<BR>

FC,<P>I have to take a moment to think here...before I respond to this post. I responded at great length at your other string...and I think it went in one ear and out the other.<P>First of all, you can't blame anybody, including God, for the choice you made in betraying your marriage vow. The vow you made is broken...even though you are going through the motions with your husband, your heart is obviously not committed to him. So love buster #1, dishonesty is coming into play. <P>Second, you've gotten a lot of attention here for the pain you are in, yet you do little to get out of it. Hating the OM will not solve your problem. I'm not an advocate of divorce, but like I said in my other response the other day, you are not doing either man any good. You, my friend, are out of control in your emotions.<P>Third, I've defended you against others before who took a harsh stance against you, and I really don't want to be harsh here at all. Adultery is a sin and forgiveable. Divorce is a sin and forgiveable. God set out his "rules" because he knew how devastating the break down of relationship is. The rules were set out to protect lives, not punish them. I'm talking straight here...as straight as I can.<P>Fourth, I've read this string, and all of the other strings you've posted. And what I see absent is any true repentance. Repentance means you turn your face 180 degrees in the other direction. You are still heavily entangled with the OM. You are consumed with him, obsessed is a little stronger term. His power over you is great. Hating him won't change it one bit. Getting really honest with yourself will.<P>Fifth, whether you want the truth or not...nothing, and I mean nothing will change until you make a choice to either completely let your emotions and feelings for the OM die and completely commit to your husband, or you get out of your marriage, deal with the consequence of your "sin"...and learn to heal. Divorce is not the goal, but it's forgiveable. It doesn't sound like you and your husband are going down the road of marital bliss because neither of you is willing to do the work to make it work....which means "forsaking all others...and clinging to your spouse." If you are unable to cling to your spouse, get out and away until you can bring yourself to do it. The main reason I am stating it this way is that you are harming your current marriage by staying in the emotional state that you are. You don't love your husband, you tolerate him. So let's get honest.<P>I have a lot of compassion for the mess that you are in because of your son. But I also see you getting a lot of attention for the mess that you are in too. Is it only attention that you want, or do you REALLY want to get healed??? <P>Like I said the other day, no amount of soap opera here is going to help you until you take responsibility for your healing process. I didn't start to really get better myself until some people who really loved me started playing hard ball with me. So if you are offended by my stance, just know that if I didn't care, I wouldn't take the time to write to you. The fact is that I do care about what happens to you. You are miserable...do you want to stay that way?<P>Anyway, I'm praying for you...and hope you can make some choices soon that will get you started towards recovering.<P>God's blessings!<BR>Ramy

FACING CHOICES: Well sorry this took so long to bet back to you but icq is a instant chat program that you download and its great,if you are interested you go to mirabilis.com and download for free then you add me to your contact list ok my icq# is 23012047.......you simply request my authorization to add me its simple and great.Looking forward to hearing from ya.........thanx a lot......JANICE......;-)

First i'd like to say i agree with Ramy about his comments and Ron's concerning God. <P>While i went through both a few emotional affairs and a physical one cause my marriage wasn't giving me everything i wanted, especially emotionally, both my H and I have started to heal through God's power and divine love. He was home here for 2 weeks and we had lots of time together while the kids were in school. Plus went away for our 10 year anniversary and a weekend of rediscoverying one anothers love.<P>While it will take quite awhile for more healing we know that what we learned at this rediscovery weekend on how to communicate our feelings better will help us if we want it. So its a matter of wanting things to be better with you and your H and if you don't well sadly than perhaps you should be separated from him for awhile till you sort out what you truly want.<P>Lots of luck to you.<BR>