[QUOTE]Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR>[B]saf,<P>JL,<P>I am too afraid to be totally honest with H. He does know that I had an A, but he has no idea of the extent of the affair or worse still, that I am still seeing the OM. I fear what his reaction might me and I don't wnat to ruin any little chance I might have of rebuilding our marriage. Still, I cant seem to keep away from the OM. This is where I really need the advice. I think maybe I'll submit another posting on this forum and see if there are any good suggestions out there...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by firestorm:<BR>[B]saf<P>Firestorm<P>At last, another BS! I was starting to think there were none on this Forum. Firestorm, I deduce from your post that your relationship with the other women is over. Did you make this decision? Or was it "forced" on you? How has your spouse handled the situation? And do you still think and long to be with the OW? These are all the questions that run through my mind. I am afraid that if I give up OM, I will never be truly happy in my marriage because I will always wonder about "what if". Yes, it has crossed my mind about him cheating on ME. But then again, he could say the same thing about me. If we decide to be together we can't bear grudges about mistakes in the past. Just the same as if I stayed with H, we can't bear grudges about mistakes in the past.<P>So,.. five reasons why I fell in love with H.<P>1. I admire him<BR>2. He is good to me (in the material sense)<BR>3. We have the same family values<BR>4. His intelligence<BR>5. His is respected by many<P>Five reasons I fell in love with OM:<P>1. I can be myself with him - no pretences<BR>2. He makes me feel speacial, loved, cared for<BR>3. I can talk to him about anything and everything<BR>4. He makes me laugh<BR>5. The way he looks at me is filled with love<BR>6. We have the same family values and life values<BR>7. He'd make a great father<BR>8. He'd be a partner, an equal - someone I can share with and not be subordinate to.<P>So Firestorm, who do you think I should be with?

Lori,<P>As usual, you posting brought tears to my eyes. The more time goes on the more I know what it is I need to do (despite my last reply to Firestorm).<P>Still, I cannot bring myself to write that letter. I cannot face not seeing or speaking to the OM. My heart wont let me do it. But I also know that the longer I continue to see him the more jeapordy I place on my marriage. <P>Please help me, please help me to do what I need to do. I will read the posts as you suggested but I know that it may be some time before I am ready to take that leap of faith. Is that OK??<P>

Marie<P>My problem is not in knowing what I need to do but in actually implementing it. <P>I think OM will divorce his wife regardless of me. I dont deny that our affair was the counduit for their divorce, but I think he will leave her reagrdless of me. And knowing this makes it all the harder...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by saf:<BR><B>Please help me, please help me to do what I need to do. I will read the posts as you suggested but I know that it may be some time before I am ready to take that leap of faith. Is that OK??<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>SAF - only your husband can answer that last question. Only he will know how much time, faith, love and patience he has. I know, because I too am a betrayer, and due to my own actions and my reluctance to do what is "right", my H has finally said he wants a divorce. <P>My head (along with everyone else in this forum) tells me what is right - get rid of the OM and turn back to my H. My heart screams to run to the OM every chance I get. That's what I have done, and I'm losing my H because of it.<P>I won't repeat my story - see Smallsteps4now's posts if you want the gory details. I have been unable to take that so-called "leap of faith" because I don't have the strength (and/or the desire?) to. I love my H very much, and I abhor the idea of divorce. I am still hopeful (even after everything) that I will be able to get to the place where I CAN make that leap of faith, and hope that it's not too late. But for me, time is running out. For my H, my indecision IS a decision and he wants out. I don't blame him. The small steps that I take, the fun times we have, are all erased with one mistake and dozens of love-busters on both of our parts. <P>Call me stubborn or crazy or just plain stupid, but I can't make a life-altering decision unless I am completely ready to do it - for MYSELF. If I turn to my H out of guilt or duty or obligation, or because I don't want to hurt him anymore, I believe I will resent him and/or myself for "making" me give up the OM, someone I love very much. I realize that by not giving up the OM, I am hurting my marriage more every day. <BR>My H can't understand how I can say I love him and don't want a divorce, and then turn around and still have the OM. What looks like a case of having my cake and eating it too is, in reality, my inability to let go of either one of them. NOT THE SAME THING!!! I know that each day that goes by is another day of life I'm wasting. My health has suffered, my H's health has suffered, both of our jobs have been in jeopardy - if this is cake, I don't want any more of it ever!!! <P>One of the things I have realized is that my H is not the "victim". He was betrayed, but our marriage is the victim. We both have time, energy and love invested, and we both hurt and end up losing if it doesn't work. I have beat myself up more times than you can count for doing this to him. There is nothing anyone can say to me that I haven't said a million times to myself. But this web site, Plan A/Plan B, whatever - is all about making the spouse a stronger, better person so the marriage can be better. I finally realized (duh) that *I* need to be a stronger, better person before I can move forward, with ANYONE. If that means I'm selfish, so be it.<P>Ok - what started out as a reply to SAF turned out to be me rambling... <P>I tell my H that I don't want a divorce, but I am not 100% ready to commit back to our marriage, not in the state of mind/heart I'm in right now. SAF - by waiting, you will get to the point I have reached, and it sucks. Your H may be patient and understanding and loving and forgiving enough to give you time and space to work through all of this, but I wouldn't be surprised if you are "forced" to make the move before you are "ready" to. Because he WILL reach his limit, and you will have to sink or swim.<P>I don't have any sage advice or words of wisdom - I know what you're feeling and I understand how helpless you really are. I have to agree with some of the others who have said that your future with the OM looks pretty grim. No matter that he's divorced/divorcing. You can't say that the relationship that you two have had did not affect his marriage. We all know that can't be true. <P>In my case, the OM isn't married, so it's only one family that's involved. But it's MY family, and it hurts like hell.<P>lost_in_love

Hello LIL,<P>Glad to see you posting after your trip. You say you cannot make a decision, but you are making a decision. As you said, Life goes on and your failure to make a decision or leap of faith is a decision whether you want it or not, precisely because life does go on.<P>You and I have talked, just as I have talked with saf. There is really nothing I can say to you, but you really have no idea yet how much pain your have inflicted on your H. Yet, from reading his post, he doesn't want to divorce you, just feels you are driving him to do so. You see your unwillingness to make a decision means you have decided.<P>You have decided you cannot trust your H. You are unwilling to make the leap of "faith" to try and rebuild. Despite the fact that OM is single and if he truely loved you, he would let you try and rebuild, you don't trust him either do you? <P>You know if you go and try and rebuild he will leave you and find someone else.<P>Yet, your H has been there through the duplicity of you moving out, while already having plans to meet OM, you lying to H about affair, and now going to meet him and end the relation. Obviously that isn't why you went to meet OM. Are you leaving your H any room? Room to allow you to get off the fence. No, you are not leaving him any are you? You are forcing him into this divorce with your continual lies. <P>LIL, if you want more time and room to straighten yourself out, do something. Talk with you H, give him some reason to think that if you ask for time to make a decision that you will use the time for that purpose. That he isn't just roadkill in your grand plan to find "true" love. <P>In short give him something, that he can hang his hat on and trust, not the lies and disrespect you have been feeding him.<P>IF you do that, you may find he will give you the time you say you need to make a decision. Otherwise, all he knows is you lie to him, you disrespect him, and you leave him whenever you want. Kind of hard to hang on when you are doing that to him.<P>Please think about this LIL, your odds of a successful marriage to OM are no better than the ones I stated to saf. Please read some of her most recent threads.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>Are you leaving your H any room? Room to allow you to get off the fence. No, you are not leaving him any are you? You are forcing him into this divorce with your continual lies. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>JL - for what it's worth, there are no "continual lies". When my H confronted me about the OM, I admitted it. I have opened myself up and given my H total honesty - especially in the last few weeks. In fact, he has been the one lying to me over the last week. I don't judge him, blame him or pretend to not understand. He's hurting and angry and doesn't deserve what I'm putting him through.<P>But - I am not "forcing" him into a divorce. I am not a cruel person, and I'm not playing some sort of game. I am trying to be completely honest with my H (and the OM) about my feelings, and if they are not what he deserves or wants to hear, I'm sorry. I can only say what I think or feel - I don't have a grand plan for what will happen. <P>I have told him that I do not want to divorce. I still love him, and will not deny that for any reason. We have some major trust issues - because of the A on my part and because of some decisions my H has made. He has "committed" some pretty major.... LB... I guess you would call them. Were they a result of my A? Probably so... but they are LB just the same. He hates what I have done, but there are things he has done that I hate, too. Nobody is innocent in this.<BR> <BR>I do realize the pain he is in - not only do I see it when I look at him, hear it in his voice, but I FEEL it. Anyone who thinks a WS doesn't hurt for what they have done to the BS is crazy. Granted, a WS will never understand what the BS goes through, but that goes both ways. <P>If my loving him and telling my H that I do not want a divorce is forcing him into it, I guess I can't understand that kind of logic.<P> From what I have read, most of the BS on here would give their eye teeth for a little honesty from the WS. Why does it mean so little that I can say I love him and don't want to lose him? Never mind - I don't need the answer. <P>lost_in_love

saf,<P>(sigh...) You have gotten some very wise, kind, and gently delivered advice from some of the best around here. I'm going to be a little more harsh. I don't want to drive you away, I just want to "wake you up".<P>While you may be caught up in the freshness of your "love" for OM, to us oldtimers here at MB we have heard your story countless times, to the point where it is nauseating in its familiarity. <BR>"we didn't mean to fall in love, it just happened"<BR>"we are true soulmates"<BR>"I've never loved anyone like this"<BR>"I can't imagine him/.her not in my life"<BR>blah, blah, blah... <barf, gag, barf!><P>Once somebody comes here they usually fall into one of a couple different categories. You seem to be falling into the "fence-sitter" category. <P>* You haven't been completely honest with your H. Which means he hasn't been given a chance to fight for you. You have hurt him badly, but not as much as you are going to. Besides the fact that you are being unfaithful to him, you are being unfairly critical of him too - how can he compare to OM? It helps assuage your guilt if everything your H says is idiotic and everything OM says is brilliant.<P>* You can't imagine giving up the OM. You are both intoxicated by the feelings you have developed for each other. you are LITERALLY addicted to a drug - dopamine or endorphines or whatever that chemical is that is released when you are in love.<P>So here you sit on the fence. Too afraid to tell your H the truth. Too addicted to stop doing what you know is immoral.<P>You say you can't decide? YOU ARE DECIDING, but you are doing it in the most cowardly way possible. You are going to let your marriage die of neglect so you can satisfy your drug problem with the least guilt possible. You haven't got the guts to commit all the way to anything. How sad.<P>Truly you have a terrible dilemma. Now that you have so much emotional capital invested in OM you would have to commit what amounts to emotional suicide to end your relationship. Few people have the nerve to do it (search for Jill's posts for an example of someone who did)<P>saf, it is not a pretty picture. There is no path you can take now that will not be filled with fear, risk, and regret. One path may seem easier, but there are costs for going down that path.<P>Is your mind TRULY open to the possibility that you can fall back in love with your H? And that you can forget about OM? If not then do your H a favor and don't drag him though your half-hearted attempts to save your marriage. As long as you maintain the escape route of the OM, you will not be able to focus 100% of your efforts on fixing your marriage.<P>I don't hate you. My heart bleeds for you and your H. I have been (am in) your H's position, so maybe some of my bitterness comes through. I'm sorry.<P>When you were growing up did you ever think of yourself as an adulterer? Do you think of yourself that way now? You will carry this for the rest of your life. Change course, do what is honorable and give your marriage another chance - a REAL chance. That can only happen if you give up OM. There is no other way.<P>------------------<BR>But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.<BR>Galatians 5:22-23

LIL,<P>You said never mind to your last question. Does that mean you know the answer, or that when asking the question, you realize that the answer is evident.<P>Perhaps I misunderstood something, but I was under the impression that you were going to meet OM to break it off. Certainly, SS4N, thought so. It obviously wasn't so.<P>Please don't take offense at this, but why do you think telling your H that you love him, comforts him? Or that you don't want a divorce now, when you are claiming deep love for OM? <P>I will try to explain this one more time. You see I believe what you are saying. I believe that you love your H and I believe you don't want a divorce. My comments to you were to suggest that your H may be a little short on the belief thing right now.<P>If that is true, I believe you need to do something that will allow him to hang on to the marriage a bit longer. Right now he feels like a cockhold, which he is. He feels you completely disrespect him, which from the sounds of your response you do. <P>You are currently very conflicted, and I am sure he has done some LBing since he found out, but I am sure he hasn't done any since he found this site right???? <P>He is looking for someway to hang on and retain some small amount of respect for himself. How is he going to do this? Can you offer something, that gives him that much to hang on to? <P>Not you saying you love him, he knows that your use of the word and his are very different right now. What can you DO, that would allow him that?<P>That is what I am asking. As I said before, I do believe you do love him, more than you even realize right now. I do believe that you don't want a divorce, right now. So the question is how can you avoid what you don't want, a divorce.<P>Please think about this, because you have complete control of this situation. Your H has none at this point. All he can do is leave or be left, but he cannot do anything about that which you are avoiding.<P>So if you need more time, think about what it is that you can do, to get this time.<P>Is this clearer to you? I hope so.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Saf,<P>Based on your last reply to firestorm, it seems like you are struggling w/the subordinate role that you play in your marriage. Perhaps, you fell in love w/your husband because your respected him and what he “represented.” But now, you have come to learn that you need more, way more and have found that in OM. Your reasons for falling in love w/OM scream, “he is attentive to and accepts ME and we/I don’t have to pretend”. Am I getting warm here?<P>I believe, however, that your H is quite capable of meeting your needs, but at the same time, you have to give some also. Your H didn’t perpetuate your subordinate role on his own. You, be it consciously or unconsciously, bought into it also. Now, HE needs to realize that, the roles are working for you in your marriage anymore. You want to be treated special and respected and w/more intimacy, etc. <P>I’m wondering about your H and his status/background. From the brief descriptions you’ve provided, it sounds like he is in a position of power, be it “expert” power, or position power, or birth order, or whatever. I believe that some people, who are placed in positions of power, sometimes don’t know how to turn it off. And I’m not speaking of “abusive” power, just the “I have to lead not be led”. If he is respected by you and many others as you state, he may fear failure as he has so many people “counting” on and looking to him to lead them. I would venture to guess that he has “failed” at little and therefore, does not know HOW to fix this emotionally-laden situation. But, really, how many of us here knew how to fix our situations?<P>Give H a chance to change. Right now, the “soup is too hot” to expect much from him, but give him a chance to make small steps in the right direction. And if the pretences bother you, don’t buy into them. If that means, skipping engagements w/him or whatever, then do so until you are comfortable w/that scene again.<P>Finally, I think you know that you marriage stands no chance w/you still seeing OM. You opened your heart to let OM in, give H the same chance.<P>Prayers to you saf<BR>Enlightened<BR>

Things to consider about the OP:<BR>1) they knowingly messed around with a married person.<BR>2) why did they choose someone unavailable?<BR>3) how do they speak of their other relationships...this is how they speak of you when you are not around.<BR>4) how did those relationships end...this is your likely future.<BR>5) what baggage are they carrying, especially from # 3 & 4?<P>And just one of those anecdotal incidents, my H & I are solidly recovering now, but the man I was seeing last winter/spring (H & I separated as he was suffering from his affair) told me I was "the one" he'd been waiting all his life for. The last time I saw him was the first week in May, he got married July 7. Sure explains those "business" trips to Montana when his cell phone was off. {sigh}. <P>saf--if you want to leave your marriage, leave it, but do not count on the OM being there. The smartest advice I almost took was to take a break from the OM for 2 weeks. No contact, no phones, email, nothing. Concentrate on your marriage for that brief time. If the OM contacts you, he is not respecting your wishes...and never will. If he is decent and intends to be honorable, he'll wait 2 weeks. Even a soulmate can do that. ESPECIALLY a soulmate can do that, because they want what is right for the other at the expense of themselves. <P>I've been on all sides of infidelity, it's all painful, but your husband has some really wonderful qualities if he is willing to work through this with you.<P>You can get over the OM, if you choose to.

saf,<P>Sorry I missed responding to one of your posts. You don't want to tell H the extent of the affair for fear of ruining the little chance that exists that the marriage can be saved. I understand you fear and in fact it makes me glad. <P>It means to me you realize you do love your H, but you are into this thing very very deep. This is causing you to cover up feelings, remember only the bad things of the marriage and have little hope for your marriage. All very understandable. People have to do this or go crazy because they are so confused and torn.<P>However, let me point something out to you. The odds of your rebuilding your marriage and making it better are much higher than you having a successful marriage to OM. You have much more to hope for in trying to rebuild than you do creating a new marriage with OM.<P>The reasons are numerous and many people can provide more than I can.<P>I just want to tell you, that if your H loves you, you can (I won't use the word rebuild) build a marriage that is better than what you had. It can happen SAF it really can, but it will take honesty on your part. I know this is so hard to see, but it is true.<P>Hang in there and keep posting. You will see what many of us are saying as time moves on. The OM will have his own issues and they will come out soon. His divorce will add many aspects to his personality, that you are not aware of yet. Further, you will have to deal with the fact that you broke up that marriage and those childrens family.<P>Sorry, but there is no doubt about that. So much is to come and no matter what you do it will be painful. However, if you do try and make your marriage work, I believe you will see that that path will offer you the best chance to be happy.<P>It will take time, SAF.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

saf<P>I mostly lurk here now. I am the betrayed in my marriage. I discovered my ex's affair on Christmas Day 1998. She was convinced she had found her 'soul mate'. She pursued him relentlessly. She moved out of the house in Aug 98 and filed for divorce almost immediately. Unfortunately, the OM was already living with another woman. Some soulmate huh?<P>The questions Lori asked are very good ones to consider. In addition, I would ask you if you have children and what impact you think this is going to have on them? In the 18 months following the discovery of the affair, our 16 year old sone was arrested and our 13 year old son failed 7th grade. My 16 year old son doesn't want to live with his mother. He understands it is because of her actions his family was torn to pieces.<P>Tom<P><p>[This message has been edited by ZAPFT (edited August 28, 2000).]

i was in the same boat as saf...how can i give him up? om and i had a 2.5 year affair..and i would describe our relationship exactly as you have...soulmates! in april he left his wife, but wanted to remain friends with her because of their 13 yr old son and because they are both faculty in the same dept. he was sure the son would want to be with him since he had practically raised him with no interest from her. he was wrong. the son wanted to stay in the big house with the pool, and turned on his father for "ruining" everything. the guilt got to him, and he couldn't leave his son. i hadn't made up my mind to leave h because, just like yours, he is a caring, loving husband...but after 22years the flame had died. so anyway, om's son made the decision for us really, we had to give our families a second chance. <BR>it has been very rough for me, i miss om terribly. but it IS getting better. we said goodbye on may 31 and haven't spoken since. i gave him harley's info on how to end an affair and we've stuck to it. i have my days, and whenever it gets particularly bad i come here to remind myself that we never really stood a chance. outside of the romance we had nothing in common at all. i'm convinced now that it wouldn't have lasted and i would have missed my husband. my husband and i have a lot of history...happy times. this is the first real problem we've had. i still haven't told h yet...i can't get up the nerve to hurt him like that. but i know i need to come clean with him. om told his wife about me, and they are working on their relationship. she did send me a vicious email, but that is to be expected. i feel really bad for her pain. what a mistake i made.

Dear lost in love<P>Your words echo my exact feelings! In kind of an eerie way. I too know that the "right" thing to do would be to give up the other man and work it out with H. I too know that I cannot give my marriage an honest shot while I am still seeing the OM. <P>But my heart aches and longs to be with the OM. Its not that I am unhappy with H. Its just that I am NOT HAPPY. I am so afraid of the same things as you. That if I gove up the OM, I will always resent H and that I will never find happiness there. But if I leave and go to OM, then I will resent HIM!! This "eat your cake and eat it scenario" is not fun for me either! <P>I tell myself that if I dont make this decision, it will be made for me. Either OM will get tired of waiting for me to leave H, or H will give up on the marriage. Either way, I dont have to choose, because I dont know that I have the strength in me to make that choice. Either way, I loose something good. <P>I am also not totally committed to my marriage and part of that is because of H's inability to meet my emotional needs and reluctance to go to counseling. I need to be sure that we can sort it all out and that I will be truly happy with him (as opposed to just being content). Then and only then can I commit to my marriage and give up the other man. But it is true that each say that I spend with the OM, the worse our marriage gets. <P>So to you and any other betrayers out there. How can you be sure that the OM is the WRONG choice? And if you do decide to go for Plan A, what are the repercussions? I need to know what to expect on a physical, emotional and spiritual basis. <P>Lost in love, now that your H has asked for divorce, do you feel this has all been a mistake, are you now ready to leave OM? Or are you looking forward to a life with OM?

2sad4words<P>Your pain is very evident in what you say. <P>I AM sitting on the fence. But thanks to MB it is becoming clearer to me what it is I need to do. I am just not sure how to do it....

Dear Enlightened<P>Very WARM!!!!<BR>Thats exactly how things are with me and H. But if I give up OM and give him the cjance to change, how can I know that he will change? How can I know that I will find the same comfort and ease with H as I do with OM? After all, I have not had that up till now.<P>

Lor<P>The OM and I have tried to break it off several times, but invariably, one of us gives in and calls. I admit that a 2 week "break" seems a lot easier to swallow than a life time one. But how do I stick to it?

Dear ZAPFT and JL<P>Fortunately, neither myself nor the OM have children, so our situation is not further complicated. Still, it does not make it any easier to choose between the 2 men.

Jill<P>My heart aches with you. I cannot imagine being without OM as long as you have. But lucky for you, the decision was made for you. You just have to deal with it. It is making this decision that is tormenting me. Dont you ever wonder that maybe one day you we be together again? I dont know that I could let go of that. I dont know that I have the strength (or desire) to let go of him!