This will probably be my last post or reply here. After reading a post by my H (Empty Shell) on Bozos Deb thread, I realized something that I should have realized a long time ago but for some reason I just didn't get it.<P>I figured that the only way I can be a better wife to my H is to not log onto the internet anymore. I won't deny that I did look up information on athletes but that is all. It's that kind of thing that gets me into trouble and hurts my H more. I realized that I can't do that anymore.<P>I am going to ask my H to password protect the internet connection so that I can no longer access it. If he does, I will not do things I'm not suppose to do. I can concentrate on being a better wife and mother. Hey, my house would be spotless this way.<P>I wish everyone here the best of luck here.

hopeful,<P>That's not a bad idea, but a better one would be to discuss this with your husband using the POJA. And if he agrees, well, we won't be seeing you around.<P>And if I stopped logging in here, I'd have this presentation that's buried a few screens down finished by now...<P>

Hopeful -<P>I know this board is a great source of support. But sometimes, I even find that if I'm on here too much, I'm either not working or not paying attention to my H - which are both very important. We certainly will miss you, but I understand that you need to break away from those things that may tempt you. Maybe you can get to a point where you will be back - with a success story - or post WITH your H at the computer. . .that way there's no temptation to go somewhere else.<P>At any rate, try to develop an outside support group - maybe a counselor could recommend a group in your area. . .I think you definitely need a place where you can express your feelings. Take care, and best of luck.

Oh, stuff and bother !<P>Empty Shell, NewBeginning, I am so so so so so sorry my thread brought this about.<P>I really wish I had kept my big mouth shut.

Bozos-Deb<P>Don't be sorry. I think reading what I did from my H is something I needed to read. At least I know what I need to do to make him happy and it's to stay off the computer

EEEEK Hopeful, sorry, don't know why I called you NB, brain fog. Please forgive that mess up of mine.<P>Somedays I don't even call myself by the right name.<BR>

Hopeful<P>I will be sad to see you go but only you and ES know what will work best for you both. My prayers and thoughts go with you both. I hope from time to time you will be able to check your email. Maybe you can open a joint email account with ES and send it to me. That way, if I would like to hear from you or if I just want to send a note to say "hi" ES can let you know. <BR>Anyway, I wish you the best.<BR>God bless all three of you!!!<P> <P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole

Hello my friends -- Tell me something if you can. . .Why is it so often that over-reaction is the only reaction which takes place when dealing with the crap we have all had to deal with?<P>As many of you are aware, my W and I have been less than successful at discussing things without one or both of us over-reacting. I think that this post by my W is yet one more over-reaction. I had not had a chance to discuss what I found the other night, when I saw Bozos Deb's post. I had been in a training class at work, and my W had been out with a friend the night I found the "History" on our puter. I had fallen asleep on the couch that night, and my W woke me up to go to bed after she got home, which was around midnight. The next morning I got up to get ready to leave for work (class) when I responded to Deb.<P>This is the first chance I have had to even get on the computer, and what do I find, but this thread from my W. Disheartening to say the least. . .<P>So what is my reaction to all of this? I'm not really sure. My W and D are out doing laundry, so I can't even talk to her about this yet. First and foremost is concerning my W's request to change the password on our internet access.<P>This is not going to happen. How on earth is my W going to be able to reach the point where she is able to overcome the urges which have caused us problems in the past. This isn't a case of needing to remove temptation, this is a case of needings to overcome temptation.<P>The second question concerns the title for this post. When I first brought this forum to my W's attention, I had hopes that she would be able to use the forum to help her understand some of the problems which had developed in our relationship. AS time when on, I had hoped that my W would post and or reply to others who were in similar situations to what she had experienced. That since she refused to open up to me, that maybe she would be willing to open up to others who might benefit form her experiences.<P>This didn't seem to work out the way I had hoped. Initially when my W tried to post, she had several instances where she was attacked. She stopped posting at all for a while, then when she started posting again, she only seemed willing to post on those topics which would not require revealing anything of substance. You know the posts . . . Birthdates and anniversaries, etc. The chance that I had looked forward to, being able to finally hear what my W really thought and felt, sort of faded away.<P>I ended up changing jobs and was for the most part, away from this forum for about six months. It has only been recently that I have come back her to either read or post.<P>If you have read any othe recent posts from my W or I, you know that we have been going through some rather difficult times of late, and this seems to be just one more stumbling block in the path before us.<P>31 months ago, my W chose to avoid the issues which were faced with. She chose instead to leave, she chose to have an affair. There were a lot of other choices she made back then, which I believe she is truly sorry she made. From reading this post, it seems to me that she is once again choosing to avoid the issues facing us, rather than face them and conquer them.<P>I don't know where this puts us. Until she gets back from doing laundry, I don't even have the ability to try and talk with her about this. I hope and pray that everything we have gone through has not been vain.<P>Thank you for listening (reading).<P>Hopefully my W will be the one to let you know how tonight turns out. If not, then I will fill you in later. You thoughts and prayers tonight would be very much appreciated.<P>God Bless

Thoughts and prayers your way ES and for Hopeful.<P>Sorry, not much for advice right now, I'm burned out.<P>I can give you that.<P>Zippy

I just thought I would jump in here. ES is correct in saying that I do over react sometimes to things that I have read or heard. This is one of those times. <P>When I got home, I got our D some dessert so that she could go to bed. She then washed her hands, gave her kisses and went to bed. I then turned the tv off and asked my H to come outside. While we were outside I asked if we could do more things after he got off work. He asked like what. I said maybe walk to the park at the end of our street or drive to another park and walk around the park holding hands. He said maybe.<P>I guess what I really need is to do something different. I don't want to have him come home, have me cook dinner, then eat and watch tv or read on the computer. Doing that night after night is getting boring. That is all we seem to do. I would love to walk around the park holding my H's name or maybe coloring a picture with him or just sitting outside on the porch would be different. I guess that might be why I "fantasize" about being with other men. I can always imagine that we are doing something different every night. I don't do it to hurt my H. I guess I just haven't learned how to express what I want from my H. I guess I just fear that if I ask to do something new or different we will say no because he's too tired or that his back, neck or head hurts.<P>I don't want to do something new every night. I don't mind watching tv every once in awhile. Even going over to his parents house or our friend's house for an hour or so would make me feel like we are doing something new. I just want to spend time with my H. Not my H with the tv and computer. <P>Am I just asking too much? I know that he works hard when he is at work and that I don't do much durning the day (I don't have a job yet) I don't feel that staying home, taking care of our D (who goes back to school on Tuesday the fifth) and cleaning our house is a job. I feel it is something I have to do since I don't have a job that pays me money. Yes our D can be a handful sometimes but I love taking care of her. She's can be a lot of fun and is learning new things everyday.<P>I won't be leaving. I will overcome my problems and won't disappoint my H. I will make him proud of me (I hope) and won't be doing anything that I'm not suppose to. From this day on. We are also suppose to be meeting with the pastor from the church I have been going to with a friend of ours. Maybe the two of us talking to him together will help us be able to make our marriage a happy, healthy, fun relationship.<P>Sorry this is so long.

Spending quality time together is essential in making any marriage work.<P>Empty Shell ... are you listening? If your back or neck hurts, perhaps it is time to take a class together in couples upper body massage - check out what is offered at your local community college!<P>DO things together!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

I know I'm preaching what I haven't practiced...However, from what I understand maybe you guys should put forth an honest effort and utilise <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A>.<P>This way you can let us all know how well they work.<P>Sincere best wishe,<P>Bill<P><P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

Well, I'm going to differ from most of you in that I don't think the problem is that ES is boring; it's that Hopeful has a profound dissatisfaction with her overall life, and she's looking for ES to fill that hold with romantic gestures.<P>Maybe I'm willing to "settle" for a boring life because my H was beginning to stray, and that makes a difference. But my weekdays consist of: H wakes me up; 1/2 hour of snuggle time. H gets ready for work, leaves, and I have 1-1/2 hours to walk, do housework, get ready for work myself. After work, we make dinner (he grills April-October, then I do the cooking), then watch TV till 9, when he goes to sleep. I usually don't want to go to bed that early, so I stay up and watch movies or write till 10 or 11. This is the routine day after day after day. And I don't mind it one bit...because overall, I'm content with my life. Yes, it bothered me for a while. Yes, it bothered me because there's no sex during the week. But you adjust; you adapt, and you decide what's important.<P>Hopeful, you and I have corresponded, and you know I'm not being judgmental or calling you a bad person. But I think that the problem is in YOU, not in the way ES treats you.<P>As for you, ES, what can you do? Well, there are little things you can do to help, though both of you have to be aware that this is a big gaping whole in Hopeful's psyche that she's tried to fill with parental approval, with other men, etc....without success. Taking a walk after dinner a few nights a week would be good for both of you. Take in a movie once a week. It doesn't have to be major. But you can't take it on yourself to fill that hole, because you can't.<P>My mother has that same kind of gaping hole, and my stepdad has spent 24 years trying to fill it, believing that if he only does ENOUGH, it'll make a difference, not knowing that all he's doing is dumping resources into an endless, bottomless pit. I'm convinced that the reason he's so ill now is because he depleted himself doing this. <P>I'm not trying to scare either of you. But you can't heal a gaping wound by applying band-aids.<P>Hopeful, are you in counseling yet? I know you come from the kind of home that creates that sort of gaping hole. My mother did too, as did I. Good cognitive therapy helps. It really does.

Hi Hopeful -<P>I absolutely agree with Dazed 100%!!!<P>Darlin', you need some direction...some purpose for yourself.....<P>Yes, you and ES need to do things together that fall under the category of FUN. You both need to give some attention to each other that keeps up those feelings of being special to each other. Notice I said.."TO each other" -<BR>NOT "FOR each other".<P>Hopeful, ES cannot be your sole source of self worth - nether can your parents, other men or even the fantasies you create. THose are not the measurements you go by. YOU have to feel good about YOU!!!!! <P>In order to do that - you have to discover who YOU are!! Remember we have talked about this since the beginning.<BR>Have you made any strides in discovering your strengths and weaknesses, your desires for yourself, etc.?<P>Let's talk about this.......<P>Done any writing? Have you kept a journal to see if you are progressing?<BR>Have you set any goals for yourself?<P>I know how it is to feel lost...to concentrate so fully on your spouse, child, parents, etc. - that you forget about concentrating on YOU.<P>Time to change that. ONLY then will you be able to feel complete and fulfilled.<BR>ES can't do it for you.......<P>Let's look at your reality of life right now.....<P>You are not working outside the home and therefore are in that environment most of the day.<P>You take care of D and chores, etc.<P>You wait for ES to come home and share his "out in the world" experiences of that day with you so that it can help you feel like you have been outside your "world".<P>When he is done and supper is over...it is YOUR TIME for stimulation. You have drudged along with the same old same old all day and NEED something more. ES has been at work all day and NEEDS to relax into "home mode"<P>Two conflicting needs....what do we do about them? I have suggestions, but would like to here yours and ES's first........<P>One thing that we learn here at MB - there is no reason to let behaviors, thoughts, habits, life ruts, etc. continue that are not helping the marriage environment. WE have the knowledge now TO CHANGE things for the better and HOW to do that.....<P>YOU TWO need to put it into practice.<P>BIG HUGS and POJA this particular situation....it will effect the other issue at the same time.....<P>Sheba

Dazed<P>No I haven't gotten into counseling. Don't have the money to go into counseling. When ES and I were working at the hospital, we got four free counseling sessions through the hospital. We saw a counselor but we didn't have the greatest of counselors. All she seemed to do was base everything on my past and the problems with my parents. That would have been fine for me but when ES and I were together it wasn't something we needed. I agree I need to deal with my parents but that is something I need to do myself. Not ES. He has pretty much said F*** them and doesn't deal with them unless he has to. Once my sister's wedding is over, I plan on doing the same. I don't plan on speaking to them for awhile.<P>I agree with you. The problems we are having are mainly all mine. I guess I should just find away to be happy staying home, taking care of the house and not going out until the weekend. I also realize that ES needs to relax when he gets home and I shouldn't expect him to want to go for a walk. Hey we do go out and take our daughter to soccer practice two nights a week. That at least gets me out of the house for an hour and a half. <P>I also go to church on Thursday nights so that will help a lot as I continue to go. The pastor of the church wants to set up to talk with ES and I together so that in turn will help as well. ES talked to him for about three hours about a month ago and he likes the pastor. That will help.<P>Sheba<P>No I haven't been writing. I've gotten to the point that I feel that if I do write, it will only cause more pain to ES. Even if its a journal to keep my thoughts, I feel that ES would be hurt even if I wrote that I had a bad day cleaning. I couldn't keep a journal myself because it wouldn't be right for me to not let him read it.<P>I do have goals that I would like to achieve. The first one is to get a job so that I can help ES with the finances. I figure since our D will be start school tomorrow, I could work part time durning the school year. I plan on taking our D to school tomorrow for the first day of school, then I have to go to the doctor's office to have some blood drawn. The doctor is going to try to find out why I've had an irregular period in the last 16 months or so. Then I'm going to go over to our D's daycare and see if I can work there part time. Maybe they will have something but it's a good place to start.<P>I had a job working at the local senior citizin's home but because of the hours I would have been working, ES thought it wouldn't have been a good job to take. One because I wouldn't have evenings off to go to our D's soccer practices and two because every other week I would have to walk to work and then home again but ES didn't want me to walk home at 11 pm. Not in the neighborhood we live in.<P>About the conflicting needs, maybe I deal with being a home body durning the week so that ES can relax after working all day, then on the weekends, I can take our D to the park and get out of the house more. What do you think?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We saw a counselor but we didn't have the greatest of counselors. All she seemed to do was base everything on my past and the problems with my parents. That would have been fine for me but when ES and I were together it wasn't something we needed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Doesn't mean she wasn't a good counselor, just obviously not a good MARRIAGE counselor.<P>Dealing with the kind of parents you have is tough. It can consume you, and it gives you a constant sense of divided loyalties, between your H and your parents. Your dynamic is what my therapist calls "critical parent/adaptive child." This means that you are constantly trying to please your parents, even at the expense of yourself, and certainly at the expense of your marriage. Yes, this is something you DO have to deal with. Cognitive therapy helps with this; it utilizes your past experiences to help you RECOGNIZE patterns, then teaches you techniques to change how you react to those old scripts.<P>Not dealing with your folks can help, but it's only a band-aid. Because often we play out the same script with others in our lives -- spouses, bosses, friends.<P>Getting some part-time work should help. So should a medical workup. But the "head work" is important too. And that should be a priority as well.

I agree to some extent. But sometimes, especially if recovery is stalling or hitting a road block, BOTH spouses need to do some very serious work - and it might entail conjuring up the energy to do something that normally one would not have the energy to do. Sometimes it might entail doing something that one might not even really WANT to do simply for the benefit of being together.<P>While I cannot exactly claim a great deal of "marital" success, I think I have made tremendous progress in showing my husband that I can do anything. Do you think I actually WANTED to drive 300 miles on the back of a sport bike to attend a wake when I had a perfectly usable car to drive down? Not on your LIFE!!! BUT - it was something that HE wanted to do. And I ENJOYED IT!!! (well, except for the sore butt and legs)<P>My point is this: the PROBLEM might be that Hopeful has some deep personal issues - but that does not mean that the SOLUTION needs to come from Hopeful alone. If a marriage is to survive, especially if it is to survive infidelity, then BOTH spouses need to take a major active role in coming up with ways to reach common goals.<P>Solution oriented brief therapy: Identify the problem(s); Find ways to overcome/solve the problem(s); DO IT. It works, folks. Just DO IT - I know it sounds like a cliche Nike commercial, but it is an effective way to live your lives!<P>Example (not marriage related, just overcoming personal issues): I have never particularly cared for carnival rides (let's face it - most of them scare the crap right outta me!!)... but I have made it one of my goals to overcome some of my fears. A couple of weekends ago, I went to a fair with some friends and there was a ride that looked like it could be fun. I hemmed and hawed - and finally said to myself that I just needed to do it. I got on the ride and had an amazingly fun time - and it will be the closest I ever get to hang gliding ...<P>My own personal motto these days is "If it isn't going to KILL me, why not try it?" Nobody ever died from bill collectors calling your home because you spent the credit card payment to have a romantic dinner with your spouse. And, if you don't own anything of value - they can't even take anything away from you! Live a little, love a lot!!!<P>You have the chance here, ES and Hopeful, that I and many others have been wishing and working for. The greatest gift you could give to your daughter is a healthy and happy marriage. The greatest gift you can give to each other IS each other.<P>Harley's rules may seem hokey sometimes - but when you really think about them, they are just guidelines toward what really does make a happy and successful marriage.<P>15 hours a week of time alone together doing quality things with each other... maybe seems like a lot - but the better your effort to make that time for each other, the better your marital recovery will be - the better your marriage will be.<P>I am NOT saying don't deal with the underlying issues - just don't make those issues become more important than being with each other the way a married couple needs to be.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

We run into the "same old same old". We both have times when we are content, other times when we want to run with the wolves--and it seems like we're basically contrarians, one up, one down. And it seems like TV & the computer are just isolating traps at times.<P>Homebody things that might be a meeting point:<BR>1) If you have a deck, front steps, or inside a comfortable place where you can sit together, no TV & could you spend 20-30 minutes each evening, having a drink (coffee, tea, cocktails, whatever) together?<P>2) Play a game. Backgammon, chess, cribbage, cards, Chutes & Ladders . You could include the kids.<P>3) Agree with Terri's massage idea--you can take turns. My daughter's have watched me give backrubs for years & now are quite proficient themselves. Let your kids "help".<P>4) We try to have one date time during the week, since it seems like we run with the kids too much on the weekend. Since both our kids are in school, lunch time is sometimes the most romantic time of the day.<P>I haven't check out the romantic ideas forum here, but I imagine there is some good stuff.<P>It is strange that marriage, usually begun so romantically becomes something that you have to work at to have fun within. But it can be done. Just think "outside the box". You've got opportunities...<P>And ES, save some energy for home.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

I am posting this reply for two reasons. . .<P>First I want to make sure that this thread stays near the top. For what I hope are obvious reasons I would like to see this thread continue for a while longer.<P>Secondly, I would like to make a few comments of my own here.<P>Dazed and Confused & Sheba -- I would like to thank you both for helping me not to think that I was completely the bad guy in this situation. I was beginning to wonder with some of the responses which were showing up. In all seriousness, I feel that I need to explain some of the time constraints which people have commented on. I get up for work between 3:15 and 3:30am every morning. I carpool with another person, and we need to be at work by 6:00am. In good weather, with no traffic problems it takes an hour to get work. Depending on whether or not it is my week to drive, I leave the house between 4:30 and 5:00 am.<P>Now work is a little difficult to explain. . . I have been doing this job for almost 9 months I was required to work through a temporary agency as a contractor for a minimum of 6 months before I was eligible to be hired outright by the company. Some of you will remember who I actually work for, but suffice it to say that I work for one of the largest, mutli-national computer firms in the world. I currently provide first level computer support for one of the largest multi-national pharmacutical companies in the world. who have contracted with the company I work for to provide support. I have been employed "outright" by this company for 2-1/2 months. I have also been involved in interviewing for a potential promotion, which we were supposed to have gotten the decision on last friday, but has still not been announced. Hopefully tomorrow they will announce the promotions.<P>By the time I get home from work it is 4:30 to 5:00 pm, in good weather, with good traffic. As my W explained earlier in this thread, 2 days a week I get home and load my W and D into the car to take my D to her soccer practices, which gets me home around 6:30 pm.<P>I am also REQUIRED to work a MINIMUM of 4 hours a week overtime. One way which I can accrue my overtime hours is by completing on line training from home. In the 2-1/2 months I have worked for this company, I have completed 12 training courses from home. More than any other person in my department has completed in over a year.<P>My alternative would be to actually work those required overtime hours at work.<P>When I do get home, I am exhausted both physically and mentally. All I want to do is to sit down and put my mind and body into neutral.<P>My W has complained on this forum many times in the past that I don't help her around the house, or help her in the kitchen, etc. Yet when I do try and get up and help her make dinner or try to pick something up around the house, I am literally chastised, told to sit down, that such and such is her job. Catch 22.<P>I turn 38 in 3 weeks. I am overweight, going grey very rapidly and I do not make much money. There is simply no way that I can possibly live up to the fantasies my W chooses to indulge in, and God knows that I certainly do not live up to the expectations that my IL's hold for me. I am a very laid back type of person who does not get upset easily, in fact during all of the problems my W and I have been through including the episodes of "discovery," I have only raised my voice to my W once. And that is only once in the almost 8 years we have been married.<P>I can't be everything. No matter how hard I try, I will continue to have my imperfections and draw backs. By my own admission, I am far from perfect. I would like to think that I have some redeeming values. That there is something about me which should considered worth while. It is very difficult to find those feelings of comfort sometimes.<P>I seem to have gotten of on a tangent somewhere, so I am going to close. I need to get to bed anyway, after all, 3:30 will be here very early in the morning.<P>Good Night and God Bless

ES & Hopeful,<BR>Sometimes real life just messes up good intentions. "Life is what happens while you are making plans."<P>ES, I'm tired just reading your schedule.<P>Hopeful, I've been an at-home mom, and it can be the lonliest feeling in the world, in my case there were times there wasn't another person home in a radius of a couple blocks.<P>You still need to brainstorm solutions, individually & as a couple. Hopeful, would/do phone calls from ES during the day help? Email? <P>Sending you wishes of time, patience & love.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).