H changed jobs after 30+ years and over the past few years had has occasion to travel alone on day trips, one overnight and lunches with female co worker. I just found out about the lunches which have been going on for over 18 months. She lives alone, her H sees her on week ends. <BR>I expressed concern at the onset because of the late hour H returned from day trip. She had wanted to make a business stop. <BR>I questioned the overnight, she went at he last minute because Corp said she had to.<BR>H took flower gift from business to OW residence when she had surgery, when they are always "sent" ~and she was there alone. <BR>Talking to H puts him on the defense and he tries to put the blame on me. <BR>We have had a very stressful year with sickness and ailing parent. <BR>Any experience with office "friendships" would be helpful.

Welcome <B>LAD</B>...<P>I have a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... <BR>(It is gear to those who have already been hit by an infidelity... but can be useful for so many others)<P>It has a lot of quick links to many of the <B>most</B> important MB sites...<BR>Click here ==> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000002.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A><P><B>About your post</B>...<P>You could be in "pre-discovery" of an Emotional Affaird(EA) or even of a Physical Affair(PA)...<P>Do check out the post...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000985.html" TARGET=_blank>50 signs your spouse is having an affair (All found on this board)</A>.<BR>It will give you more ideas to verify your own situation.<P>Whether or not there is any affair right now isn't the major issue...<BR>...Start doing what we call <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>...<P>It represents the first 2 rules of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A>...<OL TYPE=1> <BR><LI> <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3902_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Protection:</A></B> Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.<BR><LI> <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3901_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Care:</A></B> Meet your spouse's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>.<BR><LI> <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3904_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Time:</A></B> Take time to give your spouse undivided attention.<BR><LI> <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3903_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Honesty:</A></B> Be totally open and honest with your spouse.<BR></OL> <P>More specifically... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Plan A: Avoid <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3401_angry.html" TARGET=_blank>angry outbursts</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html" TARGET=_blank>disrespectful judgments</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3404_selfish.html" TARGET=_blank>selfish demands</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3403_annoy.html" TARGET=_blank>annoying behavior</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3405_dishonesty.html" TARGET=_blank>dishonesty</A> (i.e. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>!) at all costs. (page 75 of SAA)...<B>and</B> at the same time, if your spouse would let the you, you should try to meet your spouse's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A> (page 77 of SAA) that is...<BR><OL TYPE=1><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3305_aff.html" TARGET=_blank>Affection</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3310_sex.html" TARGET=_blank>Sexual Fulfillment</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3315_conv.html" TARGET=_blank>Conversation</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3320_rec.html" TARGET=_blank>Recreational Companionship</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3325_hon.html" TARGET=_blank>Honesty and Openness</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3330_att.html" TARGET=_blank>An Attractive Spouse</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3335_fin.html" TARGET=_blank>Financial Support</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3340_dom.html" TARGET=_blank>Domestic Support</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3345_fam.html" TARGET=_blank>Family Commitment</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_ad.html" TARGET=_blank>Admiration</A></OL><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There is a lt to learn about saving/improving a marriage... stay here and find out more.<P> <P>Jim

Hi, LAD.<P>Yes, I've been there, and you can read my profile for my story. Amazingly enough, it's still here.<P>These "is it or isn't it" situations are a bear, because you will in all likelihood NEVER HAVE DISCOVERY.<P>Clearly there is some attachment that your H has to this woman that goes beyond mere co-workers. I had the same thing, and no, my H never admitted to anything other than "good friends."<P>Read on this site about "Plan A." You are going to have to do this alone, because your H clearly won't work with you. Try to focus on needs he may have that you aren't meeting. If your H isn't communicative (as mine isn't), you may have to guess. If you're lucky, you'll guess right and you'll have quick results.<P>Do NOT nag your H about this "friendship." You can express RATIONALLY (if you can) why it makes you uncomfortable, but if he still gets defensive, do not pursue it. Create an environment where he can get at home what he's getting outside. Do NOT focus on "being right." Don't get bogged down in "Why should I have to do all the work when he's the one who's straying?" Being right is the booby prize. Which brings me to the next point. Go out and pick up a book called HOW ONE OF YOU CAN BRING BOTH OF YOU TOGETHER, by Susan Page. It doesn't deal with infidelity per se, but does talk about how one person working along can change the interaction in a marriage.<P>That you two have had a stressful year may add to his need to find solace elsewhere. Sometimes when we're stressed, we tend to forget that people at home need us. It's not easy, but YOU CAN DO IT.<P>I have some experience in this area; you can E-mail me: filmgeek55@email.com.

LAD,<BR>You are not alone. My story is similar to Dazed. H never admited to EA or any other, and I have no proof that they are anything but "FRIENDS". Although I did find a poem H wrote but deny's writting it. Listen to Dazed. She has been at this longer than I have. It is a learning process that will have its ups and downs but do your best to plan A. I'll give you an example. OW is divorced w/ 2 kids. H and I have 1 and I have to work to help with the bills (i have no choice). One night H and I were watching TV about Tony Blair's wife going on a crusade for new and single mothers. I commented that I wish that women didn't have to work and my H actually said "I'd pay extra in taxes to help single mothers so that they don't have to work because its so difficult for them". I wanted to scream. Here i am busting my butt everyday trying to meet all his EN's, while holding down a full time job and being a mom and he is caring for the single mom that he sees everyday in the office and who tells him how hard her life is. I didn't say anything but he hurt me so much inside. This is just one example of the insensitive things my H has said and done.<P>Sorry this is so long - as you can tell the hurt never goes away when you really don't know the truth.<p>[This message has been edited by Maturing (edited July 31, 2000).]

Hey, Maturing, thanks for the kind words.<P>Yeah, what is it with the empathy these guys seem to have for their "friends" but not for us. My H got fired from his job for defending his "friends" (including OW) in a corporate meeting. I can remember when his distraction from us as a couple was at its peak, saying "My friends come first." Yikes.<P>When OW's cat died, it was a major tragedy. Now, we have two cats, one of them terminally ill with heart disease. It will devastate me when he goes...and my H too. But somehow I think he won't be able to feel my pain the way he felt OW's.<P>Why is that?<P>OW is a single mom who had a baby while single, through what's called "an arrangement with a friend." At first, he thought this was selfish and self-indulgent. Later on, his tune changed.<P>Just for the record, things seem to be OK now. I think, but don't know for sure, that OW is no longer working for my H's client company. I'm sure they are still in touch, but nowhere near the way it used to be. Our relationship is better than ever. Do I trust completely? Hell no; that little kernel of doubt is always there. But there IS hope, LAD.

LAD

This is the second post, I lost the first. I wanted to say I wrote my story a little more detailed in General topics under "How it feels to be betrayed" (Peppermint) Her post was so touching. <BR>H is answering all questions and i am trying not to harp on the situation. I do want to talk about it though and have told him that if I know what has happened then maybe i can let it go. There was no physical affair but in my heart I know how deep an emotional affair can be. H says if the shoe were on the other foot, he too would be asking the questions and he feels very bad that he put me through this. Can it be that he really isn't aware of what his friendship must look like to others? Part of my distress is what the rest of his company must think of him... of me. I hate knowing they are in the same place everyday, and he said if the Corp sends them to a meeting somewhere, then they will have to go. They went on one overnight trip where she was told to go at the last minute and they left for the 3 hr drive at 6:30 PM. I was in chemo and had lost my hair and was very tired and upset at that turn of events. He said he didn't know if he should go or not (that afternoon) and i told him to do what ever he thought he should do, so he went (he didn't want her to drive alone at night.)<BR>Thanks again for the advice and I read almost all the posts in the topic and general. I am so glad to read something that I can relate to exactly. Thanks LAD

Dazed and Confused, Boy that rings a bell, H said that all he wants right now (a few weeks ago) was to be the best boss and have the finest plant. I said "See ya!". Sure didn't include me. I have an appt with the counselor on the 11th, sounds like a nice fellow, highly recommended. <BR>

OK, LAD, I went to the other thread and read your long post, as well as your reply here.<P>Wow. And I thought I was dealing with a lot; with a beloved cat dying of heart disease and a beloved stepdad dying of cancer. At least I'm healthy. <P>I'm not sitting in your marriage, and I don't know you, but I can speculate: Your H is probably very frightened by your illness, and doesn't know how to deal with his feelings. Perhaps it triggers old memories in his life, I don't know. So he talks to this woman because she's available, and someone he can express his fears about your health to, so he doesn't burden you. And little by little, they get closer.<P>Meanwhile, perhaps he also feels a bit neglected because what little energy you do have is devoted to caring for your father (and I know how exhausting being primary caregiver for an Alzheimer's patient is; my grandmother had it).<P>Perhaps he has a high need for attention, and you just don't have it to give.<P>So 2 + 2 = 4.<P>HOWEVER....<P>Your situation is very hopeful.<P>Your H has a far higher degree of empathy than mine does, as he's at least acknowledged the legitimacy of your feelings, and ADMITTED THAT HE'D PROBABLY FEEL THE SAME. <P>When it happened to me, my H threw in my face male friends I had 10 years ago, friendships with which I always tried to include my H. <P>You say he has given up the friendship "for your sake", not because he wants to. LAD, that is a wonderful reason for him to do it. It means he cares enough for you to care about your feelings. That's something I didn't have. Ultimately, I wrote my H a 3-page letter explaining calmly how THIS friendship was different from his other friendships with women (OW freezing me out, just like yours). He never really did give up the friendship, but I think it's beginning to peter out now, since he no longer really needs it.<P>It seems to me that you guys are going to need to communicate better about the multiple traumas you're dealing with. Do you talk about your illness with him? Does he talk about his fears with you? Does he feel he can, or does he feel he has to be Superman because you're ill? Can you devote, say, even one evening a week for "couple time", where you can put away your other concerns?<P>That would do you a world of good. Do not fret as to his reasons. Concern for your feelings is the best reason of all.

Dazed and Confused, When I read your post last night, about three times, I felt so understood. You know just what i am dealing with. I am doing plan A as the welcoming member, Jim, suggested. I have read and re-read that as well. I find it in the back of my mind when H is around. <BR>In the beginning of my illness my H was very supportive. He would cry and tell me he would take it for himself if he could. He would come home from work to go to appts with me, I couldn't have felt cared for more, but this is also when he withdrew physically. During the radiation he was not "available" and maybe he was too stressed at that point. I was dealing with burns and nausea during that 8 wks. <BR>After H went on the overnight trip (during my chemo) he had experienced chest "tightness" and had angioplasty to clear two blocks. He is a diabetic also, but keeps his sugar under control with diet and pills. I add this info so you can see he was dealing with his personal issues, too. He had been commenting on the lines in his face and wondering who the old man in the mirror was, when he felt like he was 30 something in his mind. <BR>I could easily put the "friendship" into perspective if it had started at this point, but it had been going on for 6 month already.<P>The stress of the entire year, (his mother had angioplasty and then decided to move back to her home state and H drove her belongings here for her, and our youngest daughter got married in April) has played a big part in the current situation, and I can understand him. When we were first talking about sex, the lack of-he said that (and this hurt a lot) he didn't want sex when I was sick, then he thought that I should have been the initiator, and when i didn't...he said he found he didn't miss it at all. I should add that he had slight problems in that area and I also didn't want to put pressure on him to perform. Something about not having any hair and gaining 10 lbs made me feel that I was the problem. <BR>Then i find out what I thought was the isolated lunch and I thought he would be blindsided by this competant business OW with an absentee husband. It scared me. My self esteem was non existent. H was not forth-coming about other lunches until just lately. Finding out that it started before any of our exciting year, hurt more. Knowing that I had been around the OW at times hurt me too, it was as if she had a secret with H.<BR>When we initially talked, H said he had loved me since I was a little girl (met when I was 12) and he would love me til he dies.<BR>You read about the flowers, that too was before he was "stressed". He hasn't said anything about why he didn't think to get flowers for me, but I don't think he catagorized the flowers as anything personal, just went out of his way for the delivery. He has in the past years done similar things with women. At his previous job when he went from machining to office work, he started at the same time as a young divorcee. I would hear him talking Suzy this and Suzy that and how close they were because of the newness of the jobs. When I found out that he was walking to a market and bringing her pieces of fruit... I blew up. He didn't see it the way I did, and I got over it and we attended functions with the office group and all was well.<BR>Another time, earlier than that was when we were into CB radios and had a group that we chatted with and met once in awhile for pic nics and such. I heard him, night after night when I was in bed, calling to and talking with one gal in particular. I heard him ask her to try and go to the next outing that "we would sure like to see you". I cried myself to sleep, but we never confronted that issue. I had just had our last daughter. <BR>H background was a pretty normal, church going, family. He is the oldest of 3 and i am the youngest of 2. My brother has lived out of the country for 30 years. My father is in a facility, so I do not personally have to care for him, but I do go there a lot. The night that H stayed at work because OW had that meeting planned, we were supposed to go and see my father. He had been very disruptive and angry. We had to move him there and he hadn't adjusted to the move yet, much better now. I felt really abandoned at that point, and all the time wondering about the intimacy issue. <BR>Thanks for your input Dazed, glad you are doing A as well, it must be frustrating not getting through to H. Have you been to counseling? H says he will go, but I told the Dr I would come alone at first. <BR>Thanks Maturing for your post, hope things are better for you. <BR>

LAD and Dazed - <P>I am not doing any better. D-Day for me was Feb'2000. The friendship is still there, although H hides it all from me and says with conviction that as long as he's not having any sex w/ her there is nothing for me to worry about. I had to change my name i used to be Highschool sweethearts, and then something else but i forgot - H keeps finding out that i post and freaks on me. If I didn't have a 4yr old daughter who loves her father i would have initiated a divorce. But I do feel that i need to plan b soon. I'm somewhat of a quiet type and don't talk or post much, but i am always reading here. Sorry if i cannot offer you the great advice that others here are so talented at. Good Luck. I hope you feel better and conquer your cancer. I will think of you when i do the Avon walk.<P>Sam

LAD:<P>OK, so now we know a little more. <P>We know that your H has some history of getting too close to women with whom he works. This bothers you, but you two have never really discussed a) THAT he does this; b) WHY he does this; and c) WHY it bothers you.<P>We know that he's having at least a mild MLC (mid-life crisis).<P>And perhaps (and maybe I'm just projecting my own H into this situation) he MEANS well, but is just unable to really put his own needs and insecurities aside for you. OR, he's trying to be a nice guy and just attracts damsels in distress.<P>One thing I've learned is that workplaces are full of predatory women -- and men, for that matter; people who can smell someone who's not getting what he/she needs at home.<P>I suspect that your illness and the MLC are somehow related, and he hasn't addressed his own fears of aging and mortality.<P>We went through the sex thing too; with me having hangups about my weight and him not seeing why I was punishing him because of MY problem with my weight.<P>My challenge right now is to try and pace myself; to devote the energy I must to my parents' situation and still reserve some for H. That you are dealing with your own illness complicates the equation.<P>Do you have any siblings that can help with your father?<P>Yes, I am in counseling, but not with H. He doesn't believe in it. We are doing much better, though much of that is because of hard work on my part, and learning how to try to give everyone what he/she needs while not destroying myself.<P>Not easy.<P>And it's going to get worse before it gets better.<P>Your H does seem to have some understanding, but he needs to work on this "knight in shining armor" pattern that he has. Maybe he wants to be needed, and your strength in the face of so much adversity is threatening to him?

Dazed,<P>you have such insight to these men. When H and I discuss it (usually i'm crying and he is trying to explain his actions) I call it his "need" to DATE other women and uses me as an excuse so he does not have to give too much of himself to them. <P>Do you know why they have this need? and what a W who sometimes wants to work on the marriage - but always tries her best at plan A can do to make them no longer have that need. I too am going to counseling, but H would not go w/ me.<P>Lad,<P>After a while the pain that he has caused your heart w/ this friendship will weaken, and it will not be as severe when you think about it.

Wow! really insightful. I am still digesting the post. <BR>H does come across a a Mr Nice Guy, and will try and be the rescuer for a damsel in distress. What i mean is he will give attention to the woman who is most challanged, either in her job or responcibilities, that may not be exactly the correct wording. <BR>I hope the OW isn't the predator type. She is in her second marriage, left her children in the first, they are grown now. Her H is retired and stays in their vacation spot but they get together up there on the weekends. <BR>I could have come across as strong this past year. I knew others in treatment that were so depressed and scared, but somehow I didn't get that way. My Dr kept waiting for me to "hit the wall", but it didn't happen. Now, of course I hit the wall on a daily basis, over this episode. I told H that I don't know how I made it through the year, and I am glad I didn't know about the lunches going on then. It was bad enough to deal with the trips.<BR>Maturing, I am doing great, have enough hair to use a small curling iron. Feel strong and walk everyday w/H. Thanks for the good wishes. <BR>H made plans for this week end. Bought tickets for all the days of a festival/music shows in our town. For our anniversary we went to a lodge and had a cabin with hot tub, fireplace. We had a pretty good time (he says it was perfect) but I felt I could have cut the tension with a knife. He fell asleep while I was... well... getting interested in sex, so i took my book to the other bed and read. I took lots of photos there and H is not smiling in any of them. I pointed that out to him and he said he didn't know why, he was having a good time. He always takes our photos to work, but not those. That's okay, I never look good in a photo, but at least I smiled! Thanks guys, now I am going to read your post again D&C

Maturing:<P>Do you have a profile somewhere, or where can I find your first postings? Your H's rationale sounds much like the one mine used.<P>I can sort of speak to what these men get out of those friendships -- sort of. I became too close to a co-worker, but he wasn't a "man in distress". I was in distress, because my H was going through a severe depression, one that ultimately led to me telling him to "get help or get out." I realized what was happening, and found another job.<P>My H likes that I'm capable and nurturing, but sometimes he likes to be the man of the house. I was always a control freak, and one of my Plan A tasks was to modify that. Dragon Lady, while making a lot more money than I do, has a son by arrangement with another male friend, and is a heavy drinker/partier at an age when she's too old for that stuff. And at the same time, she's much like me in that she's tough as nails and capable. So her qualities like me mean he doesn't have to be responsible, and her "needy" qualities make him feel like a big man.<P>I'll bet most of us whose husbands have these friendships are pretty tough ladies.<P>"Softening" my style has helped a lot.<P>LAD, your H could use some counseling. He's clearly got some issues he's not dealing with. He thinks he's fine, but those photos speak pretty loudly. Any chance he might go?

Yes, Dazed, he said he would go. I made the appt for me only so I can get comfortable before he goes, too. <BR>I sure wish I knew what to do. I want to ask questions again, some new ones have come to mind. Some of what I read says that is the way to go, where others say do Plan A. I want to know these answers, so i know better where I stand. <BR>What you said about the damsel in distress has still got me thinking. The OW doesn't seem to be in any distress, rather like a strong, business minded person, but then i am not there for private talk and lunches, am I? <BR>I sent for VISA statements and got them yesterday. It looks as if H used the card for lunches and that they started in May of 98... a little longer than he said. There are two close together, weekdays and lunch prices at a chinese place (so it isn't with me) and then nothing. He said the company said they would pay and he used petty cash, but I am thinking that before he got the OK for that he must have paid for it himself. That would put the cart before the horse, since he said the supervisor said they could go to lunch whenever (company would pay), but he was already going and paying. Know what I mean? Not very clear, I'll admit. <BR>I feel my anxiety building today, I have been reading Private Lies. I marked some pages and it is an interesting read. Not so sympathic to either partner, but lots of stats. <BR>Last nights amorous event, instigated by me, seemed a mistake. He was uninterested until he saw that I was upset about it. TOO LATE. How can he expect me to begin things with that experience under my hat? Sometimes it seems as if it is all pretty simple and then other times too, too complex.

Dazed <P>We had e-mailed at one time - remember Jewprincess and you said you would send me an e-mail w/ your thoughts on my H. <P>i didn't save the e-mail so i can't resend it to you. I too am capable of doing everything although my H is the control freak. Always says that i don't plan anything and when i do plan he puts it down and says its not right and in turn makes me feel bad. Part of my plan a is not to let his sarcastic remarks hurt me. I'm not too sure about ow but i know he finds her funny and she is not meek like i am. She's got a mouth that she seems to use to put people in her place. Although w/ H she appears to be a damsal in distress telling him that she wishes she could find someone like my H who is SOOO wonderful, helps around the house, fixes things etc. After D-day H stopped going out after work and 4 wks later she came into his office and complimented him and told him that I must be wonderful that he was able to resist the way he did for his marriage, when her x wasn't when faced w/ the same situation. <P>But that didn't stop her from calling him on his cell phone when he's on his way home from work. Dazed - I asked him why she calls and he said just to talk as friends and i asked what they talk about and he said that she sometimes asks him questions about her kids and for help w/ their homework. i laughed because i found this to be pretty pathetic because he hardley helps me w/ anything w/ our D who is 3 1/2 and her kids are 8 and 5 both boys. That night i called and when her answering machine answered i said to H loud enough for the answering machine to hear "if she needs advice on how to deal w/ her kids she should call their father or find a single man to help her and stop calling my husband". Well he smacked me. and told me 4 days later (1 day before we were supposed to go on a family vacation) "please don't take this friendship away from me - its the only thing i have".<P>i nearly died inside.<P>Maturing

Dazed and Maturing, Thought I would try a different strategy last night. Ask H if we could talk a little after supper. He turned off TV and said he was all ears. I told him I would like him to talk and me to listen, and could he tell me what he thinks went wrong.<BR>He thought a minute and then started... he said he thinks he has been obsessed with his job, trying to be successful at it and that somewhere along the way he substituted work for sex. As far as the lunches go, he meant them as business and nothing more. He can see where I would be hurt by him taking the flowers and he still cannot say why he did that (has wracked his brain for an answer) <BR>When he paused, I resisted the urge to jump in, and just waited. He said maybe we should separate for awhile and see what happens. I was filled with anxiety and thought i was going to be sick but took deep breaths and let him go on. He would leave but would call me everyday to make sure "we are both still alive".<BR>I asked him where he would go and he said to some motel. He said that I was the one that talked of getting away to think, but he doesn't want me to leave because it appears the whole situation is his fault, that I have done nothing wrong. I told him that when i said that I had just found out about the start of the lunches and was pretty much numb from the shock. <BR>He wanted to know if we should go as a couple to the therapist and I said I would ask when i go for my appt. He then wondered aloud if the therapist would say "H you really f***** up". I told him that no reputable person would take that position and I didn't see any reason to place blame.<BR>I told him I think he is in a crisis and that he WILL find his way out, we would both get through it. He seemed depressed, and has lately. <BR>I mentioned that he had wanted me to initiate sex, but that he has fallen asleep each time and I felt hurt that he wasn't interested enough to take part. <BR>We got a lot a talking in (2 hr) and he said he isn't going anywhere, doesn't want me to go anywhere and that he wants to be with me.<BR>As far as the obsession with sucess at work, I told him jokingly that "work" was not going to wipe the drool off his chin when he gets old. <BR>This morning when I woke up he was still in bed, at least an hour late. We had coffee and I asked him if he would go to see our Dr who has been there for me all along. That is where he is now. So will post what he finds out when I find out. <BR>Do you think talking that long was okay? It didn't seem forced and I didn't want to stop him. There were long pauses, but surprisingly he would then keep on going.

No, I think talking that long was very ok...at least you're talking.<P>Why do men think that "Let's separate for a while" is the answer to all conflict? Don't they see that makes it worse? My H has done that too, interpreted every attempt at discussion as a plea to separate. I think they figure they'll bring it up before we can.<P>You wonder, though, how they can be so utterly clueless. One of our cats has cardiomyopathy and congestive heart failure, and has been on borrowed time since last December. He is 14, and has not been doing well the last week. No fewer than THREE TIMES IN THE LAST TWELVE HOURS has he reminded me that Dragon Lady's cat only made it to thirteen. Enough already! When that (expletive deleted) cat died, he carried on more than he would if I had died. And now it's his OWN cat and he can't muster any feelings. <P>Can he really be that clueless? It's almost as if he wants to say her name in front of me.<P>Grrrr.....<P>Yes, Maturing, I do remember your story now, and I apologize for not getting back to you. That was about the time my Stepdad's illness kicked up, and my brain has been set to "stun" ever since.

Dazed, I am sorry about your cat, I have two of my own. My daughter has an old cat that thank goodness doesn't have any ills yet, she is 14. My boys (fixed) are both fairly young. I have a doberman also, but just gave away my two Scotties and a Miniature Pincher because H said it was another example of how his word didn't count (he didn't want me to take on my daughters Min Pin, but I did)and never liked the Scotties. Make sure you cat isn't suffering, sometimes purring is an indication of pain. <BR>No word yet from H. I am happy that he went, and hope he was able to feel better after talking with another man about what is going on. Then again, he may not have talked, I don't know. <BR>I go over and over what he said last night and it seems so impossible that he doesn't know why he took the flowers. I asked if he ordered them or someone else. He said he told the girl to order them and say he would pick them up. I asked if that meant he knew where she had moved, and he said the office girl told him exactly how to get there and what apartment. He says he stepped in, gave her the flowers, asked how she was feeling and then left. God, that hurts. he said they ate lunches at nice restaurants but sometimes just got a salad or burger at a fast food. The lunch of DD they ate at a picnic table on the water. <BR>When he presents his work as the problem I have told him that is not it at all, I know he enjoys the job so much, it is the relationship that he has propagated with OW.<BR>