The first year after discovery, and still ongoing.<P>I have read the book Surviving An Affair, and I find the example about Jon and Sue very informative. In fact I would say if you substituted the names for me and my wife the situation would almost fit exactly.<P>My wife and I have been married for 23 years I am 44 years old and my wife nearly 46. We have three children two boys age 21 and 19 and a daughter of 16 years. Until recently I though we had a perfect marriage and so did everyone else. I would say something started changing about 5 years ago a gradual process losing that relaxed comfortable feel.<P>My recent relevant past <BR>I am in a family business and considered to be quit well off, in the early ninety’s the building business went into a deep recession and effected the firm badly this only recently started to change when earlier this year we where finely able to repay the bank and get free from their grip. The most intent time of this was 1992 –93, and being substantially responsible for the finances of the Co since my fathers death in 1990 the stress took its toll. So basically we have had 10 years of uncertainty on the financial front, ironically, this is now good.<P>During this time I was involved in freemasonry and shooting, a pass time I found to help me forget the work problems. I always had my wife’s support as she though it was good for me. I over done both of these when I took the chair of the lodge in 1995 and 1996 and I am sure I was neglecting my wife’s emotional needs from about 1994. This, together with the financial uncertainty of late, I can see after reading the book “surviving an affair” must have been devastating to my wife.<P>Wife’s recent relevant past <BR>My wife is a very caring person and has been very involved in local Church matters; She was until very recently a Eucharistic minister. Unfortunately I did not give the encouragement and support she deserved. In 1993 my wife nursed a young woman in connection with the church that was dying from cancer, she put a lot into this and it took its toll, I think this affected her greatly. During 1994 she suffered from depression and had six months on Prozac. She then enthusiastically got involved in charity at the Church on the committee for a project for the whole diocese. This during 1996 –97 concluded with a seminar in late 1997. During this time she built up a good friendship with the chairman. I obviously did not no how good.<P>My oldest son who was very close to my wife went to university that same year, first to leave home? He then dropped out early 1998 with a Barbie doll girlfriend 8 years older than him; none of the family liked this girl, they both went to work and live in Brighton. (My son is now back home on his own “no Barbie doll in tow” and now attending a local university, this is a great help to me).<P>The Discovery. <BR>During the early part of 1998 unbeknown to me they use to see each other for coffee and a chat. This eventually transformed into an affair, which I recently have been told, started in June 1998.<P>He is 56 years old a retired bank manager married with two kids and now works for him self. The affair happened during the day for the best part so my suspicions were not aroused for quite some time, although I know looking back I was not happy about something? from middle to late 1997. This progressed and got worse about the middle of last year and August onwards I was not happy at all but I still did not know why. It was on the last day of November 98 when my wife came home, late afternoon and two of the children where arguing over tea, the look on her face told me she could just about turn round and walk out, I new then their was something very wrong.<P>That night after she had gone to bed I went through her handbag and found a love letter describing what he would like to do. I confronted her, she finally admitted to a relationship said it was platonic and the letter was wishful thinking on his part and she would deal with it. Next morning I went round his house and warned him off.<P>The first year after discovery. <BR>Since then I have had nothing but lies and deceit at every stages, each confrontation finding out a little bit more, every time the extra information was making the realization worse. For the first six months I was devastated under the doctor on antidepressants etc. following her everywhere reading books (men are from Mars woman are from Venus) etc. etc. trying to understand and put things right, we went to relate marriage guidance, all this time she never stopped lying. <P>This woman I have known for the best part of my life and I would have sworn never told a lie in her life? <P>I tried being affectionate to her, taking extra care of the kids smarting up the home being attentive, listening, talking, being firm, soft, buying small gifts, flowers, going out for meals, Theatre, Writing letters, everything. Even standing back and giving her time (for sum reason this never seemed long enough), all to no avail. Although when I brought my daughter a horse I think it made a difference but overall I made no headway.<P>Books I have read this year<P>Surviving An Affair<BR>Divorce Busting : A Revolutionary and Rapid Program for Staying together<BR>Infidelity A Survival Guide<BR>Mars and Venus Together Forever<BR>How to Get What you Want and Want What You Have<BR>The Relate Guide to Staying Together<BR>The Relate Guide to Better Relationships<BR>The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Families<P><BR>As you probably have guest I am a type of person that if I have a problem then I try to fix it?<P>Key happenings <P>End of November 98 Found out, “letter”. I know that she carried on seeing him during December, January and February. In February she was leaving the Relate Marriage counsellors meetings and going to see him, of course never admitting this. The end of March we finished the Marriage counselling. By the End of April she was very tired and worn out, said she needed space, a few days away to a holy shrine to think things through, she was on sleeping tablets and surprising she also needed a two week course of women tablets to sort out some menstruation Problem. It later transpired his wife was on holiday; the tablets are the same as honeymoon tablets to delay the monthly period and also it was established he met my wife there. Of course she has confirmed none of this but it is fact. Even to the point of taking separate cars some 600 miles round trip.<BR>In May I new she was phoning him each Friday night when I had an hour out. After confronting my wife previously for using the telephone at home to contact him, she was know using the mobile, as it was registered to me I diverted the calls that evening and low and behold dead on time 9:35 pm it rang and we know who was on the other end. Within four days she had purchased her own mobile which she tried to keep secret of course I new about it, she eventually said it was to prove to me she was her own person and me diverting her old phone made her feel violated. She never divulged her phone number, not even when the kids found it strange and questioned her.<P>By this time I realised it was a lot more involved I new she was seeing him at all strange moments ½ Hr here 1 Hr there. The mileage on her car was constant when I did not no her whereabouts 18 to 20 miles.<P>By this time “June” I have had enough so I employed a private investigator to follow my wife? She was very careful not to be found out. Even taken time to by items to prove she had been shopping, sometimes purchased a day or to before, even calling into a local car park to pick up a ticket to leave in the car to show the time and place of parking.<P>Eventuality my wife was followed to a studio flat with concealed private parking under the block. We found out the flat No and established he had purchased “yes purchased” it in October 98. I did nothing for a day or so as the results of my daughter’s exams where due and we had promised to take my daughter out for a meal to celebrate, but I did see my solicitor to check my position, and informed his wife, who up to this point did not know, I also informed the priest. When I did confront my wife, very little was said. She promised to give him up and give me two years to see if we could work it out.<P>After a week or two my wife finally agreed to a holiday that I had suggested previously to help the situation. So I took the whole family to Cuba for two weeks in August. Initially on holiday I thought I was doing well but unfortunately I got drunk said a thing or two and undone all the good.<P>Two days after our return my wife went to Church and he was waiting. Another two days and my wife told me it was not working and she wanted to end our marriage, so I told her dad and asked him to talk some sense into her. Up to this point as far as my wife knew only me and my wife, him and his wife, my brother and the priest where aware of the situation. My wife then told me “this being unusual” that she went to see him to sort things out.<P>End of September we restarted at the relate Marriage guidance meetings, my wife said she was not going to repair the marriage but was going because I had asked her to. I suggested we see what happened?<P>Even though I tried not to over the next few weeks we had some horrid Arguments. Occasionally my wife threatened to leave but ever time it got to that point she changed her mind.<P>8th November my wife walked out of the Marriage guidance meetings, on the 11th I took my wife and my sons out for a meal to try to smooth things over this ended up in an argument and it transpired that the day before he had the results from a mole removed from his ear and it was malignant also he would need more removed with reconstructive surgery. This did not go down well as previously I had suggested she should treat him as if he was dead.<P>I then stepped totally back did not interfere and waited but I new something had to be done but what?<P>I ordered the book. “Surviving An Affair” <P>Then on November 25th, I do not no why, I watched the flat his car was there so I waited, he drove of and I was relieved that I got It wrong and left. Then it dawned on me he probably had gone to have lunch with my wife or pick her up, so I returned to the flat yes his car was back I thought for a time and said if I was my wife where would I park I drove about a mile or so and yes found my wife’s car. Returning to the flat I got inside the building and outside the flat door. Only when I was 100% certain my wife was in there I broke the door down, found them both naked flew into a blind rage slapped my wife and thumped him screamed at her why all the lies and deceit told my wife not to return home and left. Neither where seriously hurt, it is not in my nature.<P>My wife is now living with him in the flat; I have seen her when she picked up some thing and when she has seen the kids, but not of late. I know she dose not blame me for my rage and she says she is not proud of herself.<P>I know this is not the behaviour of my wife of 21 of the 23 years marriage; it is so out of character it is like a different person. I know I have done a lot of things wrong trying to rectify the situation the counselling did not put me in the right position to help. A couple of the good books, I read to late to help, and this latest book Surviving An Affair arrived the Saturday after all this had happened.<P>I have written a letter as suggest in the book “Surviving An Affair” plan B. The only reply I got was from him very arrogant and condescending. Describing me as the ex-husband, stating they intend to stay together for the rest of their lives. And stating if I do not start talking to my wife, (she has stated she wants to discus things Kids etc), then me and the wife will not even remain friends<P>Your advice please <P>It has now been a year since finding out should I call it a day.<P>What advice should I give my children to get their mother back?<P>Should I arrange to se her, it has been two weeks today <P>Should I try to get her to read the book bearing in mind I have shown a lot of extracts from books in the past, which she finds aggravating, also as I have written the letter, she will think it contrived. <P><BR>Yours <P>Tadpole.<P>England. United Kingdom<P>[This message has been edited by TFJ (edited December 11, 1999).]<P>[This message has been edited by TFJ (edited December 12, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by TFJ (edited December 12, 1999).]

Welcome <B>TFJ</B> to the Marriage Builders - Infidelity Forum.<P>It's good to add to the international flavour... <BR>We have a good number of folks from Australia!<P>Correct me if I am wrong... you just <B>recently</B> got the book...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"(SAA)</A> by Dr. Willard Harley???<BR>Yes? No? How long ago?<P>The people here represent both betrayed spouses and betrayers(waywards) alike and the occasional Other Woman/Man/Person (OP/OW/OM).<BR><B>All</B> of us are really here to try and build or rebuild our marriages... and we are trying to use principles and concepts that are espoused by Dr. Willard Harley of Marriage Builders(MB).<P>There is a wealth of information here at this site, starting from the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/" TARGET=_blank>Marriage Builder's Home Page</A>.<P>Many of us need to start immediately working on our marriages and a <B>sound</B> understanding of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A and Plan B</A> is crucial! Most people start off in <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>, and then move over to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>. Depending on where you stand with your own emotions... <B>you'll</B> have to decide. Consider direct counseling (maybe even with Steve Harley...) individually.<P>The rest of my normal welcome wagon spiel...<BR>Just for completeness. ...<P>You'll see a barrage of "terms" which you might guess the meaning of... but an alternative is to look up what they mean at this site... Words like (click on them to find out):<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3200_love.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Bank</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.html" TARGET=_blank>Giver and Taker</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A>.<P>You'll need to learn more about, not just marriage building... but self building too! The number and choice of books you've read is good... I'll make other recommendations later. The learning isn't going to happen overnight though... look at the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8100_article.html" TARGET=_blank>Articles</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>Infidelity Q&A</A>.<BR>The real learning is best aided by obtaining some of the books from the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6000_bookstore.html" TARGET=_blank>MB Bookstore</A>... of most important for those who have affairs in progress, or soon to be, is <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"</A> by Dr. Willard Harley. <B>This is the 'bible' for this forum.</B><BR>Other books can be very useful as well... like <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6020_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>"His Needs, Her Needs"</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6030_love.html" TARGET=_blank>"Love Busters"</A>.<BR>I have posted here a list of other books... just look them over...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010158.html" TARGET=_blank>Books... books... books... (again)</A><P>Some specifics... as a reply to your post...<BR>-----------------------------------<BR>When you say you have "a letter as suggested in the book"... are you referring to the pre-<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A> letter?<P>If you think you're ready for <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>... post here a while first... and maybe seek Dr. Harley's personal advice.<P>You definitely <B>don't</B> have to "call it a day"... Ask the people here.. one year is a long time... but there are some here even longer!<P>There isn't much advice to give to your children on getting their mother back... They can do virtually nothing... It's <B>you</B>... and more importatly your W... who will have to <B>do</B> something.<P>If you can see her... do so...<BR>But read up on <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> again... and this time... NO <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>!<P>It's futile to "get her to read <B>any</B> book"... Don't get yourself frustrated over it! <P>------------------------------------<BR>... wrapping up my welcome wagon speach...<P>Most of all... you will find <B>compassion</B> and <B>love</B> here. No judging... no demeaning... no malice here!<BR>The people here have all had their lives thrown into a whirlwind of despair, confusion, and sadness.<BR>We've all experience gut wrenching emotions that we though could never exist, in anyone's idea of humanity.<BR>Feelings of hatred, love, disillusionment, envy, rejection, emptiness, <B>deep depression</B>, and on and on...<P>Just the books and facts aren't going to get you through it all... I think you've found that out already... It is through <B>support</B>. That's where <B>we</B> come in! <B>We</B> care... because <B>we</B> know how it feels. Believe it... <B>You are <I>not</I> alone</B>! <BR>Come to this forum to vent... to cry... to laugh (a little)... to express your feelings... to advise others... or just to get away!<BR>You're probably going through H*!! right now... don't go it alone... remember... <B>you are <I>not</I> alone</B>! <P>There is never any guarantee to save all marriages... life doesn't work that way, unfortunately.<BR>We can, and do guarantee, to give you help... to build back many vital aspects of your life and sanity. <P>Post... Post... Post... Reply... Reply... Reply... READ! READ! READ!<P>I've been speaking in behalf of some dear friends... as well as some complete strangers too..., when I've used <B>"we"</B>!<BR>But... if you're here... join in with them... they <B>will</B> join in with you. <P>Jim<BR>---------------------------------<BR>Where two or more are gathered...

Thanks NSR for the hope<P>Yes the book I recently got, (two weeks ago), is Surviving An Affair by Dr Willard Harley, yes I have read it. But this was after she moved in with OM.<P>The other books I previously read gave me the insight of trying to rebuild the love bank along the lines of plan A, this I had been trying for a long time but was getting me nowhere, I believe W is above romantic love threshold with OM and is oblivious to all my efforts to deposit love units, (Last paragraph in SAA “The Love Bank” It’s very difficult for a person with a depleted Love Bank account to compete with someone with an overflowing account). When W moved out it seemed appropriate to try plan B. The letter I sent was as suggested in plan B, Except I left out the part about contact vie 3rd person’s because of the age of my children. The no contact would also be a 180-degree turnabout on my part (the book Divorce Busting), <P>Question: if I was to implement plan B in its entirety and not see W, hopefully so W will miss me, know what divorce is, and get sick of OM?. How am I going to build up deposits in W love bank towards me?<P>If I do not see W when she requests will that not deplete her love bank with me even further.<P>In (SAA) Dr Willard Harley, states If the Wayward Spouse Doesn’t Want to Totally Separate from the Lover?<BR>Wait until the affair has ended and she is willing to try to reconcile with you. While there is no hope for reconciliation when the affair is underway, as soon as the affair is ended, reconciliation is definitely possible.<P>What can I do to speed up the ending of the affair after this length of time?<P>Tadpole<BR>-----------------<BR>

TFJ,<P>It appears to me that you've been aware of the affair for a bit over a year, and that you've been doing a plan A effort for that time. But that your wife just recently left (2 weeks???), and that you gave them the Plan B letter.<P>So, if you've been in Plan B for only 2 weeks, then I strongly urge you to refrain from contact. Take care of your kids. You've done your part---the affair is turning from fantasy to reality. Trust me when I tell you that reality is never as fun. It may take a couple weeks, or several months, but this affair is likely to end. You don't want to do anything to sabotage it---if your wife finds out, it will be a lovebuster. Just take care of those kids, and have no contact. She knows your position of wanting to reconcile---you said it in the letter.<P>Give it time.

Your History was a little hard to follow but that's ok. If K got it right and its been only 2 weeks, then I agree with him. No contact and I would not talk to the OM at all. As far as I would be concerned he may be a real element of the situation but its none of his buisness either. Whatever is discussed between you and your W should definately not be through him. He is not a good choice as mediator at all.<P>I think you should continue with no contact, she does know how you feel, all the effort you have put into this has made that very clear. And I would not take to much of what the OM says as fact, he may be trying to convince himself as well as you.<P>Reality is alot different than fantasy. The reason counseling did not work is because in all reality you were the only one trying. There is no way she could succeed as long as the affair is ongoing. <P>Remember, they are also facing his W in this whole mess and that will make it doubly hard. <P>I know it is hard, its probally the hardest thing you've ever done but you must be smart and not act on impulse or out of rage, these are big lovebusters!!<P>As you said, for a long time her needs went unmet, then boom they were getting met, unfortunately by another but that feeling is very captivating. They all really are totally different people to some degree.<P>Reality has to set in good. The fun has to run out of thier relationship. And your W must start suffering withdrawl from you. Once this occurs then you will be in the position to be able to make some progress, but basically until then you shouldn't expect much progress, because she won't be receptive until the fantasy part runs its course. It seems like forever but if we play our cards right it usually doesn't take as long as we think. The problem is that we often keep trying thinking that we will be able to break down the wall this time and get through to them, but in all reality we only prolong any sucess we may be in for.<P>1. No contact<BR>2. No lovebusters is she contacts you<BR>3. Concentrate on you & the kids<BR>4. Work on yourself so that you will be ready when she is.<BR>5. Do something for you:<BR> a. to help pass the time<BR> b. to give the impression that you are <BR> gettng on with life w/out her<BR> {its when they think that you are<BR> really beginning to move on that <BR> starts to shock them into reality}<P>Heads up, be strong & be smart... and keep posting<P>Genie

Thanks K and Genie for the input and support<P>You seem to be saying the same thing and its what I thought but was not sure. I knew it could not go on the same way as this last year, I think that was probably the reason for braking down the flat door to bring the affair right out in the open.<P>I wish I got the book SAA earlier then I would have found this website and all your support, and probably saved myself a lot of hart ache <P>Never mind no good looking back think positive go forward?<P>I will try but I have already been apart longer than any time in my 23 years of marriage <P>Keep you posted<P>Tadpole<BR>

TFJ,<BR> Your story and mine are similar. I also threw my W into the arms of OM. I Also found this place a "little" too late. My W is 47 OM 61 me 44 too. Their affair has been going on (visits to his office) for 2 years. My W has been living with OM 3 months. They are closing on a house together on Dec 17th (I pray God slows it down) <BR> I feel your pain. Although I'm sure they have had sex, I never saw it. THAT must have been so tough. He's lucky you didn't KILL him!!<P> I confronted OM at his office I WISH I had punched his lights out. I instead told him God would deal with him (Poked him in the face a couple of times couldn't hit an old man almost wetting his pants)<BR> Well, I've tried EVERYTHING in the last 3 months. Nothing works for more than a day or so. Every time W and I get close, OM pulls her back (with satan's help of course)<BR> Our W's are BOTH going threw "empty nest" and menopause at the same time.<P> These OLD MEN make them feel young. We on the other hand, old. On our side guilt, fear of failing AGAIN in the marriage and dealing with the hurt they caused.<BR> On OM's side, FANTASY, youth, hope of something better. No "pain" yet. <P> It is really a dream. EVERY relationship "slows" down. Theirs will too. It takes time. I think that while they are in this one room "flat" they blame any unhappiness on that. My W and OM have been from motel to "flat" to motel for 3 months. I think "reality" won't set in until the "land".<BR> They have put a "tremendous" amount of pressure on these relationships"!!<BR> They believe it will be "PERFECT" forever!!<BR> But these R are based on lies, deceit and pain. They will fail eventually. Just try and be someone she "wants" to go to when it does. GOOD LUCK MY FRIEND FRANK<P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom is why!!"<P>

PLEASE HELP Thank you, for your input it’s a good feeling to know I am not alone but I suppose that doesn’t help either of us I am only 3 weeks into no contact, and I have no idea what I will be like after 3 Months I pray to G it wont take that long, but I am probably being unrealistic.. And Best of Luck to you,<P><BR>Tadpole<BR>