Hi, <BR>Thanks for the clarification on thinking smaller. Yes that was an excellent point. <P>I am working on boundaries. I have read the book and am trying very hard at home. It is just that H works and I don't and his father came up here on death's door. He needed everything. <P>I am trying put off as much on H as I can, BELIEVE ME, I have worked it to where he takes him for a fitting for dentures and he probably thinks I will come across town and pick him up so that he doesn't have to put in so much time before going out of town, etc, ad nauseum. But I will be busy. Also his father loves to talk and takes 3xs the amount of time necessary. I loved this woman eye surgeon who put her hand on his leg and said, "Now, you're a talker so I want you to listen to me for a minute" Very professional, very nice, but he is still talking about how he doesn't like her. I'm sure she's crushed. Thanks for listening.

He sounds like my grandfather years ago. Very strong willed and opinionated and very Irish if you know what I mean. Almost made it to 100. I am sure my mom grew tired of his constand demands.<P>My father is now sick and who knows how long he has? But, I understand you do what you have to do and then you work out the rest. <P>My wife is currently devouring the book too and is trying to figure out her relationship with our neighbor and wondering where to draw the boundaries. Right now we have erected an invisible barrier about 50 feet high with a lock gate. <P>So, yeah. This man is a great counselor in that he has so much life experience. Has heard it all. But yet has a gentle spirit about him and can turn to a scripture immediately to make his point more concrete. <P>You don't sound too ready to really keep your marriage together. You daughters don't know you said. They will find out about everything - one day. Don't they have an inkling about what is going on?<P>Oh yeah. That D personality can really keep your mind active can't it? I know I have developed into a D since my childhood and in business just to survive. I wonder if your D has intensified since your discovery?<p>[This message has been edited by Dogbert (edited March 13, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by artsy:<BR><B>he probably thinks I will come across town and pick him up so that he doesn't have to put in so much time before going out of town, etc, ad nauseum. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Is this pretty typical? That you don't have time to do it or are these your boundaries coming up?<P>

Yes, his Dad is Irish, Murphy was his mother's name. Oh, he is all that and more. Very demanding in a sweet way if you happen to think demanding is sweet. <P>My D temperment is on full alert. I am seeing things I never saw before and I can hardly stand the hyprocracy. When I find spell check I will be happier. <P>About this counselor. Do I need his name? I would like to keep it as a way to unwind from my expensive therapist. She knows me so well and we have worked through many difficult things together.

He is older than you and will be someone you can really respect as a wise person.<p>[This message has been edited by Dogbert (edited March 15, 2001).]

Thanks so much for the name. That name sounds reallly familiar. I used to have friends going to couseling at Briarwood years ago. He must have been on staff. As it is set up now we are going to see the Shelton's on Monday. <P>Had a gruelling day with counseling at our church, church dinner and then marriage counseling class. <P>Thanks again. I don't know what I will do in the short term but I am taking care of myself and not worrying about the long term health of the marriage...just of my psyce.

Good. Just keep it a secret if you call him so you and I don't figure each other or anything by accident.<P>God bless.

I just caught the first name but that will be enough to go on with the name of the church. My thinking is that I will continue to need theraputic care for awhile. I have several issues that are traumatic and this deal with H sort puts me over the edge. Of couse without therapy I would have chosen to live in la la land for who knows how much longer.<P>We were in a marriage counseling class last night and after H said he was an I at home and D at work I opening challenged him in front of everyone. I just said, you are what you are period. I don't believe you are different at work and I heard your staff express similar comments. Well, he was so hurt that he couldn't sleep. I wouldn't do it again but his getting hurt and letting me know that he was mad was a first in 30 years of marriage. <P>My not having time to drive his father back from the dentist was legitimate. I do all the doctors visits and H just wanted to play raquetball before he left for yet another long working weekend out of town. His father met all his staff and had a pleasant time. He needs to do his share but then that's why he married. To get services, although he will never admit that. <P>The Boundaries book is very interesting. It is more info on the codependency thing. I would like to see that topic started on the board.<BR>I'm taking the weekend off and visiting family. My FOO is really the source of my problems so I expect I will be counting the days until I see my therapist. Sounds so weak doesn't it?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by artsy:<BR><B><BR>We were in a marriage counseling class last night and after H said he was an I at home and D at work I opening challenged him in front of everyone. I just said, you are what you are period. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is very interesting because I feel that in order to get along better at home with my wife I have to tone down my D. At work I have a strong D but I have learned over the years to temper that because not everybody can handle it. I am also strong I everywhere because let's say I go to Oak Mountain for a bike ride. I come home and start talking to my wife about how many deer I saw, how many people I saw and even that I saw people I knew. And I just go on and on. She listens but she is never like this.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I don't believe you are different at work and I heard your staff express similar comments. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I believe you are what you are but have to work at modifying what you are in order to get along with those around you. Like you and I know, the D in us can easily hurt and offend people.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>his getting hurt and letting me know that he was mad was a first in 30 years of marriage. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Really? He has never expressed any anger at all?<BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>H just wanted to play raquetball before he left for yet another long working weekend out of town. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ah. Boys will be boys. I know about that.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Boundaries. It is more info on the codependency thing. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes it is a good thing to learn but it seems so odd because as Christians we are almost taught that we have to give ourselves away ad infinitum to follow Christ. This book comes along and says, "Wait a minute."<P><BR>

Dogbert<BR>Went to see the Briarwood counselor yesterday. He was very good with the word and so I was moved and impressed to change my thinking. This didn't suprise me but applying the word is a real skill that was done artfully in my case. <P>Problem is there is this trauma that when mentioned sends me to tears. It is very raw now in the wake of the exposure of infidelity. It is as though I have never dealt with it. I'm sure this is because of the betrayal and so many things are now torturing me. So....next morning H says. I think you should stop seeing your therapist because obviously after 3 years ( it has been less than a year) she has not helped you. I feel betrayed again. It is a money issue as are all our issues. <P>Does H ever get angry? Very, very rarely does he show or feel( so that I would know it) any emotions. He is a classic passive-aggressive. So, it is remarks like this mornings, that show his anger ever so evident under the surface.

artsy,<P>So glad to hear that the Briarwood counselor was helpful. Was there snow up on the hill? ;-)<P>You mention trauma? What is that or are you talking about the affairs?<P>It sounds like your husband is not in tune with your life if he doesn't realize you have only been going to the therapist for 1 year instead of 3. Did I read that right?<P>Yes you should have anger and hurt. It will take you getting in touch with it to get you to move beyond this sticking point. I wonder why your husband is angry?<P>Hey, hold on to your umbrella in this wind!

Dogbert, <BR>No snow up in this area. But you know above us had several inches. Yesterday's cold temperatures were a trial. <P>The trauma is something I may go into at another time maybe even another subject. But after betrayal all the things that were difficult that you shouldn't have put up with come right to the forefront and now you are deal with legion instead of just infidelity....as if that's not enough. It is realizing that H was never there for me. I feel so shamed and abandoned.<P>He's angry because he allowed me to talk him into taking his tithe and minus the cost of Christian counseling. He feels the devil has had a hey day with our lives and things have gotton worse since that slip. Well, yeah, after a year of counseling I finally faced the truth and now am facing alot more and he's unhappy with my anger. I don't want to have anything to do with him physically. I will talk with him however. <P>Counseling as a couple cannot do what individual counseling can. You see the result. He sits there and critiques my pain on this subject, says I should be over it and all the while I'm being counseled to not harden my heart and to stop sinning. The idea being that as you let the devil bring up these thoughts of anger and resentment and unforgiveness and then act accordingly...you are sinning. I agree...but I think it is a process. I'm not ready to open up with tight-wad watching.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by artsy:<BR><B>Dogbert, <BR>No snow up in this area. But you know above us had several inches. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yep. I couldn't believe Hoover City schools closing.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It is realizing that H was never there for me. I feel so shamed and abandoned.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I gotcha.<BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He's angry because he allowed me to talk him into taking his tithe and minus the cost of Christian counseling. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This makes no sense to me. You should not tithe out of compulsion anyway. He should know his marriage comes first. There are many ministers who give to the Lord and leaves their wives in the dust emotionally and wind up divorced in the end because they were abandoned by the man doing the "Lord's work."<BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I will talk with him however. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Are you going to stay married to him?<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He sits there and critiques my pain on this subject, <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your husband does?<BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The idea being that as you let the devil bring up these thoughts of anger and resentment and unforgiveness and then act accordingly...you are sinning</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Anger is a normal emotion and not necessarily a sin. Unforgiveness is. Resentment is not necessarily a sin either. Didn't Jesus get mad? Didn't God get mad at the Israelites like a million times? That is not wrong. But you have to draw your boundaries and grieve and experience the raw emotions to get past this sticking point.<P><BR>

Dogbert, <BR>I just lost my message doing something screwy with the computer. <BR>Thank you for your comment on tithing. Yes, H is only seeing the trees and not the forest. He is critiqing my progress in the emotion I feel over this issue. He says its time to quite therapy with V. because I should be further along. How arrogant. He prefers using the word of God to club his wife and talk about legitimate feelings as sinning.I am not bashing H. I simply moved out of the bedroom. My not giving sex seems to be the end of the marriage in everyone's minds. It seems logical as a way of taking care of myself. I don't know how long I will feel this way.<P>Recently, in a marriage ministries class H told another couple we were in the class for a tune up. When he droned on about empty nest, I literally zoned out. That's when I think divorce. I would be fine to talk to this couple, strangers as they were....about why I'm not sleeping with my H. But we don't go there, of course. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by artsy:<BR><B>My not giving sex seems to be the end of the marriage in everyone's minds. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't see it that way. I think you just bring yourself to that level of intimacy without puking. Totally understandable. I mean, this man gave you and STD. Why would you want to engage in the behavior again?<BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Recently, in a marriage ministries class H told another couple we were in the class for a tune up. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh, so they don't know WHY you are there? I wondered about that? Why are you there if you are not going to be honest about the real issues? Sounds like appeasement on someone's part. <BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When he droned on about empty nest, I literally zoned out. That's when I think divorce. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Are you now, or have you ever been, in love with him? It is more than about sex. It is about betrayal. 6 times! Does he show remorse? How come he does not understand that you need time to heal and he needs to give you time to see change?<P>

Dogbert, <BR>I left your questions for a few days. The marriage ministries is a class for couples to tune up their marriages. I think we are the only couple in there that is actually in individual counseling. In counseling we tell all. Our lives might be the subject of every nights discussion if the whole group knew. I quess that not much of what H does or says seems right to me. <P>I am working on an anger-buster program. I quess it is no suprise to those that have read my notes that I am very angry.<P>As to whether I will stay. No decisions right now but I probably will because he does seem repetent.

Dogbert, <BR>You may not be checking this thread for awhile and that's okay.<P>The couple's counseling at Briarwood is going on three weeks now. I just met the wife and it appears one has to make special arrangements to meet with both of them. We will get together as a foursome in two weeks. <P>Last week was H's turn and it was quite insightful. We had a heated discussion of degrees of sin. That would be an interesting thread, probably in recovery. But H is trying to compare my irritation with a neighbor ( a univeral problem) with his sin as far as Christ forgives. But then we're back to consequences and that is where the rub is. I still am happy to sleep apart and feel it is the most healing thing I could do for us. <P>Counselor talks of asking forgiveness for the many ripples of hurt, betrayal and friction that 30 years of lying and decieving has done to our union. H just "feels" forgiven but cannot recall actually asking for forgiveness of the multitude of "situations" that I bring up. Like do you think you should ask for forgiveness for not wearing a condom when you had sex, and endangering my life as well as my sanity? He just says in 86 no one was thinking aids. I just think that is STUPID.