Murray,<BR>Thanks. I have emailed you. You have both work and home email addresses. I have been venting (explained in email.)<BR><P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Murray: I'm not an unbeliever, mocker, nor is it my idea to counsel Rob in wicked ways. I only said "mellow out" - the Bible thumping is a turn-off - being a zealot about *anything* is a turn-off if it isn't equally shared by your partner. Geez Louise. Get off your high horse. That's another turn-off (superiority complex) and if you're doing that to your W, then mellow out.<P><BR>

KarmaGrrl,<BR>In her mind I come off that way regardless of what I do. I have tried backing off and it gets interpreted as all the above. I do something and it gets interpreted the same way. The only thing that I have found that works is that she is always right (even when she is wrong) and that I have to read her mind so that I do things before she thinks of it.<P>I know that I come across the ways that you say but haven't gotten any advice on how to handle it by anyone, to include her, that makes it so that I am responding in a manner that she likes. MAJOR QUANDRY!!!!!<P>She has placed me on that pedestal that she thinks she can't attain. I never asked for this and have been trying to overcome it for our entire marriage. She has not let anyone inside her inner shell since her grandmother died. I know OM is not in there either. She may give him the impression that he is but he isn't. I know I never got in but did get very close. That halted after I got out of the Air Force and definitely shut down when her grandmother died.<BR>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited December 17, 1999).]

Rob:<P>My vent-fest was directed to Murray & the horse he rode in on, not to you.<P>But since you admitted that she perceives you have a superiority thing - and that she was the one who put you on the pedestal (high horse? same thing?)- it's time to come down. What's that old saying? "Get off your cross, we need the wood!" <P>As far as her "always being right." Well, the psychotherapists will tell ya that's what everyone does - even mass-murderers. Before any behavior is performed, the person doing it justified it beforehands in their heart as being the right thing to do, so they do it. It's called "rationalization." <P>Excepting, of course, impulsive people who have no control over their impulsive behavior. They know what they're doing is wrong but they can't stop it. It's a frontal lobe disconnection thing in their case. They're not wired right. <P>There's talk here that you should love your W as you love Christ. Ok, that being said and it's in the Bible and all that - what would you do if Christ *was* your W? What behaviors would you do differently? What would you do tonite when you see her? Specifically?<P>Peace<BR>~KarmaGrrl, baptized by the Spirit 24years ago<P>

KarmaGrrl,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>what would you do if Christ *was* your W? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He would look to see that I am trying to meet those needs. He would say that I accept you as your are rather than beating me up by not saying I love, not sleeping in our bed with me, not being mean to our boys because she can't get them to do more than I can which is the same btw.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What behaviors would you do differently?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I haven't the foggiest idea. I have tred what everyone has said so many times it is not funny. I am at the do absolutely nothing stage. I hate going home because I don't like the boys asking me how I feel when I am dying inside. I hurt for them, her, and myself.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What would you do tonite when you see her? Specifically?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I plan on not speaking unless spoken to as I have for sometime. When spoken to first by her, I then add a little casual conversation. She will probably be upset because I paged OM today to let him know that I know he paged her before he called me yesterday about the fax I sent him. She was down because he called her about the fax. She had that troubled look on her face. I didn't know what it meant conclusively until I checked her pager while she was in the shower this morning.<P>I am praying hard and staying out of her way. I am knocking out our enormous debt so that I can spend more time with our boys and fix things on the house that I have gotten a lot of grief about. I know the look of the house is important to her partcularly when other people talk about it. However, we only have so many resources and I can only do those things that are most important in the big scheme of things.<P>Thank You for caring. Besides coming here to vent which is what this post was about primarily. I really don't mind sticking it out without all the fanfare. I just don't like the excruciating pain that I feel emotionally from time to time. I suspect this feeling is what she has endured for a lot longer time than she has known me. I have been irrational during those moments. <BR>Baptized inthe Spirit 25+years ago<BR><P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Figure out what the OM is doing for her that you are not. Perhaps he makes her feel like a princess. He makes her feel acceptable in her spiritual walk, where maybe she feels like a failure in your presence.<P>Men often have an affair when they have disappointments in their career. The affair partner convinces them that they are good enough, the wife makes them feel like a failure.<P>Compete with the OM. Do what he is doing. It sounds like she wants to come home because you have so many traits that she likes that the OM doesn't have.<P>Most of all, BE FUN. Make her smile, laugh, and relax. Otherwise, you, your witness, and your children lose. Be fun. Fun is serious business.<BR>

Cuckold,<BR>You are right on all counts. I am working on all those. Part of the fun thing is tied to our money. Her definition of fun requires that we go out and spend money when itis really tight. It is beginning to loosen up a little so I plan on doing what I was doing before the first affair.<P>Thanks.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Dear Karma Girl,<P>If you are a believer in Christ, I am sorry to have misjudged you as not.<P>If I am a zealot, it is for simple faith in the Lord. And also for true spiritual peace, love and joy. All I have recommended to Rob is that he depend on the love of Christ for his own inner stability and to have something of value to offer his wife and to embrace through faith the fact that God will work everything together for his good. No one can say whether Rob's marriage will ever be what he hopes it will be, but the Lord Jesus Christ has given him his Spirit to conquer the despair that might otherwise engulf him. <P>I have not and do not recommend Rob preach to his wife or, as you put it, "thump the Bible." What is at the core of my counsel to Rob is that he undergo an internal shift in his own attitude to a greater dependence on the Spirit into whom you, he and I have been baptized.<P>Murray

Rob:<P>You didn't get it...lets try again. <P>What if you walked into your house and there was Jesus disguised as your W? <P>You skipped that question. You said what you would want Jesus to do and to recognize in you and appreciate about you. <P>What would YOU do? God commanded that you love her as you love Christ. So...?? <P><p>[This message has been edited by KarmaGrrl (edited December 18, 1999).]

Murray:<P>That was an admirable attempt at an apology - nice try. When you actually apologize, I'll accept it and forgive. Care to try again???<P>"IF I am a believer?" I told ya twice I'm am...and you still have the audacity to say "IF"! <P>Then you weakly apologized by saying "I'm sorry I misjudged you." <P>You didn't simply "misjudge" me, dude. You went for the throat and called me evil, wicked, a mocker - said it was wrong of me to give advice - and on and on. <P>I'm not going to let you squirm your way out of an apology - you owe me a big fat apology for your "misjudgment" and mostly for your assumptions and hate-filled remarks. <P>And where do you get off jumping in and assuming I'm an unbeliever? Whatever gave you that impression? And who gave you the right to assume who is and who isn't a believer and the right to insult them, if you suppose they are not?<P>Either apologize right or don't bother me and waste my time with another one of your backhanded apologies. <P>

Dear KarmaGrrl,<P>I am truly sorry for any way in which I offended you.<P>Murray

KarmaGrrl,<BR>I don't think I would have done anything differently than I already have done. I have meek and humble as best I can. <P>I would let her (Him) know how much I care for her which I already do. I try to clearly state how I feel when she treats me the way she does. (I have been shot down with that approach with the remark that the world donesn't revolve around you.) I would say like I always do lets talk about what I am doing wrong and how we can make changes in me (understanding that it is me who will make the changes in me.) I know that I have let you down in the past and I want to make changes but I need your help to make them permanent changes. (I have tried to get to this point also and get the rebuttal you change for a little while then you revert back to where you were.) <P>The changes would have been permanent if I were being coached to make them permanent. It takes time to change something that is a part of you. The rest of life did not stop because I need to make some major changes in my personality for her. I don't mind making those changes, just don't assume that they are permanent because I make a change and revert back to some of those things that I did before. One of her biggest hang ups is that I spend a lot of time on the computer. Well I do our budget and cashflow analysis on the computer. I don't do much fun stuff on it because I am not really allowed to use it when she is around. I would have to get up in the middle of the night after she were sound alseep to use it just for financial matters. <P>I feel that she wants to run every aspect of my life not realizing that I must work to provide the lifestyle that she has grown accustomed to. She told me Friday that I don't want to go out or do any fun things. The things she wants to do require money that she has spent on other things that only she benefits from directly. It usually causes me to have to cover something more important than what hse spent the money on. However, I have worked really hard and we are almost out of debt. God willing this will occur by July 2000 at the earliest and December 2000 at the latest.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Rob:<P>Listen to Cuckold - he's given you the best advice. <P>You're in competition w/OM and you're either going to get on your feet & win or you're not. It's your choice. <P>Or maybe you're not miserable? Maybe you have such a low self esteem you can only find fufillment by being the "better" man (OM is just a wicked boy), the martyr (like Jesus), the one who sits in God's hand while the rest of the unwashed masses conduct their wicked sins of the flesh. Maybe this relationship works for you so in some weird way, you like it just the way it is. <P>You're spending so much time and energy wrapped up in your world. That's why she's getting attention from other men. <P>She wants fun - you say it costs too much to have fun. <P>She wants you to get off the 'puter and give her attention. You will only speak to her unless spoken to. <P>She wants to have fun and live today but you think it's better to wait until 7/00 or 12/00 to start "living" again. <P>You're putting way too much of yourself into your checkbook and checking up on your W's whereabouts. <P>You're stuck like a rat in a maze and you keep going down the same path expecting a different outcome. Like maybe God will put the cheese at the end of your corridor miraculously if you pray hard enough? <P>Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. You need to stop what you're doing and try something different. <P>Have you read Michele Weiner's Divorce Busting book? Try that for starters. She has a website - check it out and read some of her articles. <P>Remember, you reap what you sow - so whatcha going to sow today in your marriage? You want fun & affection? Try being the man your W fell in love with in the beginning. Didn't you used to come home and talk to her, kiss her, hug her? Take her out for walks and stuff? Bring her little gifts and love letters? <P>I wish you the best. <BR>~KarmaGrrl<P>PS: Thanks Murray. <P><BR>

KarmaGrrl,<BR>I hear you loud and clear. I have been doing new things regularly. She is the one who wants to control when we talk. Everything I say is taken solely in the negative light and has been from the very beginning (hindsight being 20/20.)<P>We talked yesterday morning when she came home at 5:00 am when she should have been home about 1:00 am. She told me she watches movies with him and that he comments during the movie. She hates it when I do that. Everything she sees in him is what she has in me. The only difference is that he is younger. <P>I was able to communicate that I have the pain though much greater than him. He had pain in his life that she thought I didn't have. He was needy and I wasn't. Now I am needy in addition to him. However, when I call him little boy, it causes him to be more needy. She acknowledged that I am in a fair amount of pain when she let me know that I hurt her with my facade statement concerning her taking out the boys to go skating. I have come to realize that she never shows her real feelings when it comes to anyone, not even with me. Her entire life has been one big facade of faces to everyone she meets. She told me she didn't know who she was. This goes along with the facades.<P>I am trying to please her. I have always tried to please her even when the money wasn't and still ain't there. She is getting $350 for Chrsitmas in addition to the other things that I have already bought her. It is difficult to overcome her seeing the glass as half empty all the time. She has the low self esteem problem. I am not being the martyr. I am loving her in the ways that I figure out because she does not communicate those things to me. I change and she finds something else to get upset about.<P>She is really upset that she has not accomplished the things that she had set as goals when she was a child. She wasn't supposed to get married until this year and then start having children. She was married at 21 and had our first child at 23. She was supposed to have gone abroad and she hasn't yet. I guess she thought this would happen via me being in the Air Force. The Air Force thought differently. I feel that she is taking out her frustration of her not meeting any of the goals she had set on me. Please understand that this is only part of the problem. I know a fair amount of the problem is me. I am continually telling her that I need her help to change me into the man that she would like for me to be.<P>However, I can only do that which she allows me to do. He has gone to paging her with my special I love you page: 4(I)-5683(LOVE)-968(YOU). He has modified it so that she knows it is him rather than me sending the page. The last time I sent her this page she became very angry with me and threatened to leave the house forever.<P>We watched Rage: Carrie 2 last night. The Carrie like girl's mother was in a mental hospital. She commented and said that at least she wasn't there. I did not say anything but I did think that my life would be much easier if you were. The pain would be less because she wouldn't be doing things that hurt me as deeply. I could deal with that a great deal easier than what I am enduring now.<P>I keep hearing shows that say what a big influence childhood as on one when one becomes an adult. The people on these shows remind me of my W. Her life is so close to these other peoples lives that it isn't funny. I told her that I wasn't going to get married until God told me that He wanted me to get married and to her. I was crushed by my previous relationship. She has had several relationships. Ours has been the longest one because the other guys hurt her and she broke off the relationship. I can only assume that I met the bill better than anyone else. The guys she has been interested in have fallen short of me in a few places. The biggest thing they had going for them was that she perceived herself to be more intelligent than they were because they were younger and she had learned a great deal from me.<P>I do like fun but it all needs to fit within the budget. If we do one thing something else has to go. We tried it her way. That is why we have the enormous amount of debt. I did take the manly stance for a while then backed off because it was causing problems for us. I have changed almost as quickly as she has, yet never before she has because I havent' gotten to the point where I can anticipate her changes.<BR>Enough rambling. I know I sound like I am trying to justify my actions. I just want her to see me the way that I see her: as God's gift to me.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Still tempted to save for a rainy day? Guess what...IT'S RAINING!!!!!!!

Cuckold,<BR>Last night I helped her take down the braids that she had put in her head. I am doing those things that she will allow me to do. What I mean by this is that I am trying not o go over board with my affection for her. This has been a problem in the past. I am searching for that middle ground that is most effective. <P>Besides I still have to deal with the rage that is there. God gives me reassurance that I am doing what He wants me to do. I don't send the pages because it angers her. I am doing all those things that she has told me that she would like for me to do. I do only those things that don't violate His will.<P>Yes, there are things that she wants me to do that God doesn't approve of. I am not to do those things under no circumstanceas unless He tells me otherwise which He won't because He never changes. We do. I am now in my 7th year of having to deal with this. I know there are a few others here who have dealt with this longer than I have but not many.<P>It is very comforting to know that He is affirming my actions because 7 years is a really long time to have to deal with this. I have made changes before and was not able to keep the changes consistent because of the situations. Some of the things that she doesn't want me to do are the things that give me pleasure. As so many here have stated, why do I have to suffer indefinitely for things that really don't dishonor her especially when it is my way of unwinding from the pressures of the day which makes me more loving to her.<P>If you have never been in a situation where everything you do is bad, then you can't really understand. I experienced this when I was on my way out of the Air Force. Now, I am experiencing it with my W. Her compassion on Sunday night though it were small was an indication that she is beginning to feel where I am coing from.<P>Feelings are important but they are not the most important. We are easily duped when we rely on feelings alone which is where most of us work most of the time. I am now at that stage where my feelings are trying to take over what little sanity I have left. I usually can keep everything in perspective. However, I lose it from time to time. It wasn't until she started seeing me lose it that she was finaly able to relate.<P>Though it is raining, I still have His peace. He is keeping me sane in my most insane moment.<P>It is possible to go overboard. That is another one of her complaints about me. Though these are not her words. She has often told me to lighten up. I am learning how to present myself in the lightened up mode. Everything is precise inspite of what we think. Gray areas exist because we don't know the entire picture. That is why Satan gets the better part of us. Even Job broke down and did stupid things in small amounts. <BR>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited December 21, 1999).]

It has been a while since I posted here, but you intrigue me fully. The multitude of responses shows I am not the only one. Seems others feel somewhat defeated by you and your quick dismissal of their suggestions. Why is that? (And I'm not asking any of you others) I mean...why are you so quick to dismiss our suggestions? You really don't want advice, do you? You want sympathy <<peering over my shoulder at others>> This is perfectly normal and this is exactly what you need. A kind word...not advice. (Now I am directing this last sentence to the rest of you)<P>You have shown yourself to be perfectly capable of thinking for yourself (as if we should have ever assumed otherwise<<>> ) and you have God with you, so why should we continue to torment you with our misdirected (not misguided) advice?<P>Interesting to myself why I should try to keep from offending say...Kgirl.<P>Anyway, I feel for you. I wish you the best and I hope you have peace enough to enjoy the celebration for of our Lord. God Bless you!<P>Peter

Peter,<BR>I am sorry if I am coming across as though I am dismissing everyone's advice. I am doing those things as best I understand. I even paged her today. I expect to be blasted when I see her. The only thing that I haven't done is to sin against God in order to make her happy. I am sorry but that doesn't fix the problem.<P>I want to make her laugh but get shot down when I try. She has asked for space to get her thoughts together. She is getting that. I speak every now and then to let her know that I still love her. I am not judging her. I want her to understand me. <P>It is quite apparent that I am still missing whatever it is that everyone is saying. I can only do those things that are important to her. I am spending more time with our boys, cleaning the house on my own (in spite of the need for our boys to learn responsibility, etc.) I am at a total loss as to what I am missing here.<P>I am giving her $350 for Christmas above the gifts I have already bought for her. Her birthday is on 21 Jan; I am planning a surprise birthday party for her because that is a fun thing and it shows that I care because surprise birthdays are a big thing for her even though she says she hates surprises. <P>I can't spend y number of dollars when I only have x coming in and y > x. I know that I am not communicating this effectively to all of you. I am doing everything I have learned from you all as well as the things that I have learned from reading loads of books. The only thing I haven't tried is to leave but can't do that right now because there isn't enough cashflow to accomplish that.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P>Reread one of your ealrier posts.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> It seems to me that you are somewhat indifferent to her need for the amount of love and devotion that you set aside for your<BR>faith.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am not indifferent about her need for love and affection. She doesn't crave it as much as I do. I would love to do nothing but spend time doing only those things that she wants to do. I guess I should quit my job and stop paying everyone so that they come and take everything so that we can have the much simpler life that I actually want. This would be devastating to her. When I got out of the Air Force that was a blow to her because our cash flow dried up. I had to tighten the belt a lot which meant that we couldn't do all the things that we did before I got out. Even then when I was doing those things she asked for, I know I was not totally connecting with her because of the distance that I saw in here eyes. <P>When I met her she hung on my every word and seemed genuinely interested. She has done what she is doing in every relationship that we have talked about. Her first affair resulted in her cheating on him and me at the same time with a third person. The third person caused her to get into hot water at her job because her coworkers and her boss were upset that she was a married woman having an affair with one of the parents of a child that was attending their daycare center.<P>In another post you said something would have to give for you. In my case that will have to be my death because I owe it to her, my boys, and God. I am not a martyr even though the way that I am saying it sounds like I want to be that. I don't. I genuinely love my W and my enemies which includes the OM. I even lent him money which he has not paid back. It has nothing to do with me looking great in anyone's eyes. I am merely doing what I know to be right regardless of how it is characterized by the rest of the world. <P>I only desire to do God's will. In doing so I and everyone else will be blessed. If they don't see it as a blessing then it is quite apparent that they do not know Him.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited December 21, 1999).]

Hey Hangin'! Let's not offend the Kgrrl - I'm 9 months pregnant and not in any mood to be messed with! LOL <BR> <BR>Hormones are a terrible thing to waste.<P>