i have read many of the discussions and am new to this group,but have a question. i have strongly suspected my spouse of having an affair and "laid low" for a while to make sure i wasn't being paranoid. a friend finally told me that i needed to know what was going on. in sept.02 i confronted my husband, but he denied any affair. in feb. i confronted him again this time with evidence of phone calls on his cell bill which he lied about, making trips to the OW's place of work during his lunch break,evidence of lingerie he ordered for both of us (different sizes) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> etc, etc. he still denies the affair but i had everything but an actual photo. we went to counseling twice but he always left angry. i still can't trust him and he still denies any affair. i am a christian person who truly can forgive and wants to work this out, but what do you do when the WS won't be honest. can anyone help with the trust issue or what i can do to prove his infidelity?

Speech --

Welcome to MB. Now that you're one of us, come here to this board to rage, to vent, to cry, anytime you need to find a way to share your pain. We're good listeners.

Anger = Guilt. Your H left those counseling sessions out of guilt. He KNEW he was wrong in his chosen direction, that he had taken the wrong path, that these sessions probably would expose his poor decisions and weaknesses, and in front of you. Not in the least surprising behavior.

Until he admits to his inappropriate and destructive behaviors, to you and to himself, there's not much chance for righting your ship. He's got to "fess up" and admit he was wrong, and then vow that he'll clean up his act and never go there again, and then beg your forgiveness. Tall order, but absolutely necessary for your recovery.

He's got to be honest, got to come clean with whatever information and details you need to help you heal. At this point, he won't even admit to the A which you know existed, you felt its existence in your interaction, you KNEW. As you say, you had "everything but an actual photo."

I'm sure you've already read through the wonderful information on this website, all the articles and columns and maybe even the books. You know how difficult is the recovery process, but you also know how very worthy it is of your time and effort. Trust is the most elusive element to regain and generally the last one to return. Why should it be any different?

The breaking of vows through deception and betrayal is a total mental, physical, and emotional wrenching of the peace and sanctity of your home and relationship. As such, you even question your own sanity and ability to manage your life. Your stability is rocked, in ruins. Trust will come again only when you have paid the price of time and patience and tears and he has EARNED that restoration. It's really up to him. How much is he willing to do to bring peace and love back into your marriage?

In a sense, it's too early for you to worry about trusting him again; he's still too far removed from the necessary clarity of direction and an awareness of how much he's hurt you, how severely your relationship has been tested, how close to the brink you two are. When (if?) those realizations become part of him again, then you two have a solid opportunity to rebuild and make out of these seeming chaos a healthy and nurturing union. Not like "before" (look at what "before" has allowed to happen!), but better and stronger than what you had. It can happen. You're just as likely as the next couple to grow from this experience. If we don't learn from our pain, of what value has it been?

Keep us posted, Speech, we're here for you...

Ammon

Being a christian I know you know all about accountability and confession. My ws denied even in counseling for 6 months before he finally admitted in a session when our counselors ( we went to the church for help)told him they could meet with for the rest of their lives but until he confessed and then started being accountable for his actions there was nothing more they could do for him, they could only counsel me thru the pain and grief over what I felt was the death of my marraiage,Once that staement was made he broke an dthe healing began. Before that time, my lide was terrible...It does get better

Speech:
I have too much of an idea as to how you feel. Mine actually said to me at one point that there was never any proof of anyone having an affair until someone produced the photos. I actaully had one past fling admitt it to me only to have H deny it. Actually, it could have been totally innocent cause it could have happened before our relationship started, but because he obviously lied, i have the very strong inkling that it did not stop after our relationship got into full swing.
They don't know that they often leave teh smoking gun right under our noses. They honestly think that we are that brain dead. I have heard, and would like input back on this one, that the BS is usually right in their suspicions.
I have also hard, and please forgive me for telling you this, and please , any one out there, correct me if I am wrong cause I am scared of this one, that even if it has been twenty years after the fact and they finally fess up, it's gonna hurt like the dickens. Be prepared. I personally have been practicing taking deep breaths and explaining to H why it could possibly hurt now, after all these years. Betrayal is betrayal, especially of the marital kind.
I know personally that couples can come out the other side of this smelling of roses. It hasn't happened to me, but I have strong faith oin the human spirit and believe that if two people want it bad enough, no matter what, that they can do anything. Takes one to tear it down, it takes two to put it back together.
Know that there ARE things about you that will have to change. Somehow, as sick as it sounds, we did help it to happen. maybe we had only 10% of the responcibility, but we are to some extent responcible. I shutter at that thought. Until we can accept that, the betrayer will hold us 100% accountable, serves their cause all too well to make us the monsters, they couldn't do it if, in their minds, we were saints.
Pray pray pray. I presently do not feel worthy of stepping into the church. I have a hard time praying. How could God possibly put me through this. But remember that God gives us only what he knows we can handle. DO NOT mis construe this. I slip into telling myself that the big guy in the sky is "punishing" me for stepping on that bug 30 yr ago, but that's not it at all. God knows that you will not go insane. He knows that you will work through this, he trusts you to gain wisdom and strength. He IS there for you and your mariage. When you can not pray for yourself, pray for your H. When you can't do that, pray for the OW.
Hang in there, girl. and Lots of love.
It's not your fault. You are a loving person. You do deserve greatness. It will come to you.

Thanks for your responses to my pain and frustration. Have been in vacation for a while and had hoped to get some time to talk things over with my WS. Had told him before we left that we needed to talk when he asked me one day if I would ever love him like I did 20 years ago? Sounds to me like a question from a guilty man....Still he managed to avoid any personal conversations until I insisted on the way home today. Still denies that there was anything to the "friendship", and I won't tell him everything that I know. He just doesn't realize what I do know and how I am sitting back and watching him lie over and over. If you aren't the type of person who lies about things, it's hard to be patient with those who lie only to avoid confrontation in a situation like this. I will continue to provide him a chance to come clean in a nonthreatening way and see if that makes a difference. Thanks again.

speech,

One thought, because no one else has mentioned it, is that your H may be involved in an EA instead of PA. Oftentimes spouses who have not crossed the line into physical contact, will deny that an affair is occurring. To them, it's just a friendship even though we know better...and EAs can be as addictive and destructive as PAs...but the WS doesn't see that. He just sees another person who is fulfilling his needs. Are you in a Plan A?