Thanks to all for the advice, it has been tremedously helpful for me to read through these messages and the messages of others. I am not ready to make a final decision, but I am seeing things very clearly. Thanks to all, I will continue to post messages as "the saga continues"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hope4us:

"My fear is that if I stay with her, she'll think she can make any mistake and I'll still forgive her. I fear that the effort she is showing is all a lie. I fear that once a cheater, always a cheater. We were only married 1.5 years when she cheated. Our marriage was pretty good. What's going to happen when things get really tough (kids, midlife crisis, etc.)? Is it possible for a cheater to go the next 50+ years without cheating?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not if YOU make the resolution to decide the fate of your marriage based on the deal breaking boundary of her following or not following, The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage. Without strict observance of them, ANY marriage is vulnerable to an affair.

Thanks for all the feedback. I have come to a final decision, and i cannot move forward, nor do I feel that I have the ability to "see my WW through" this affair. I am done!

Thanks to all and best of luck!

Since this is my thread, I feel compelled to say the following. There are many great aspects about this site. Reading the posts and the things people go through were comforting in a strange way. It was horrifying to read about those who are year(s) into their attempts to revive their marriages. One bit of advice to Dr Harley. YOu need to let people know when to exit a marriage. I read alot about forgiveness and "keep at it" but there has to be a point of diminishing returns" both emotionally and mentally. Its as if there are many people "trapped" by the concepts in your book. They wait and wait for the WS to return and then are devestated wen WS continues to be wayward. Its a continuim of pain and suffering, that is not fair to the faithful spouse. After reading many threads on this site, I come away with the overwhelming opinion that many people are nuturing and enabeling the WS. They want so badly for the spouse to return and tell them what they want to hear. They suffer when the WS calls and doesnt tell them what they want to hear. They pine for the WS, enabeling the WS to continue the game of deciet and lies. This happens beacuse leaving is much harder than staying, and no one wants to realize they have been lied to. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

On anoter more positive note, I do embrace the concepts shared here about marriage, relationship building, and marriage building. I also believe that this experience has made me a stronger person and a better father for my children. It has also taught me that a marriage is fragile and needs to e watered like a plant. The underlying point here is, that with all the above said, you need to be married to someone who is worthy of the above concepts and who will not stray if things get tough. A person who is so easily drawn to an affair is of weak character and weak moral fiber. Why invest more time with that person. As many of us know, if we had not found out about the affair, it would still be going on!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A person who is so easily drawn to an affair is of weak character and weak moral fiber.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with most of your post BUT (here it comes) don't fall under the false assumption that you are going to find people of strong character and strong moral fiber in a church, synagogue, mosque, etc. Some of the most notorious WS's are very religious individuals and some of them are religious leaders as well. This is not meant to generalize all religious people, just to caution you in not assuming that just because a person is religious that s/he is going to be of strong character and strong moral fiber.

fff,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A person who is so easily drawn to an affair is of weak character and weak moral fiber.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And a person who isn't willing to look at themselves to find out why their WS felt like they needed to get their needs met from another; is just as weak and is likely to push away the next person they have an intimate relationship with. Such a person is almost as devastating in a M. Everyone is capable of having an A (given the right circumstances) even you! So I wouldn't jump on that high horse my friend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why invest more time with that person.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because a promise was made to them "...in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer, for better or for worse...

If you were to ask some of these people why they remain faithful, you'd see something much bigger than what you see as their own tiny world of pain. And you don't understand why God designed marriage. That's too bad.

After reading your post, maybe your W got the idea about dumping "the loser" from you. You must have been a good teacher.

BTW Don't confuse my post with condoning your W's decision to have an A. I don't. It was wrong she should not have hurt you in that way. Also I do believe the Harley's do address the issue of ending the M. You abviously haven't read enough of their material. Or at least don't understand it.

S&C

fff:

"The reality of it is, I want out of the marriage."

I reallly have 2 ask why?

"I dont have the patience or constitution to be with someone who has such little respect form myself or my children."

But you will have 2 work on increasing your patience and fortifying your consti2tion whether you remain M'd 2 your kids' mother or not. Might as well hunker down and do that with someone who knows you.

"Leopards dont change their spots!"

Possibly, but people aren't leopards. People can change their behavior. Your W can. Many, in worse si2ations than you and your W, have.

"My wife has a ton of issues that I am not responsible for and I dont feel it is my responsibility to see her through her issues."

How do you decide which issues are your responsibility and which aren't? On this site, we talk a lot about facing the consequences of our behaviors. Usually, we're referring 2 WSs and their choices 2 have As. But it applies 2 us BSs as well. In my case, and in most if not all others, the consequences of my behavior over the years - how I treated my W when I felt she was hurting me - are that she had an A. Think about it.

"I realize that I have 50% responsibility for the state of my marriage, BUT, my wife has an intimate relationship with another man."

And she is 50% responsible for the state of your M. The fact that she's having an A is a consequence of the state of your M, it isn't her "50%". Does that make sense?

"Why am I suddenly responsible for bringing her back to the marriage?"

You aren't. You never were. You are responsible for following your own heart 2 happiness for you and your children. If you're happy, she'll want a piece of that, and she may decide 2 come back 2 you. But it will take time. Possibly a long time. And a lot of hard work. For now, you will feel like you're doing all the work. You have 2, because she can't. But that doesn't mean you should be a doormat. Set an example of honesty that she can follow. Tell her what you know (which is plenty, so you don't need 2 snoop anymore), and tell her that it hurts you and your family. Don't put guilt trips on her. She will do that herself. Just show her that you accept her, warts and all, and let her make her decisions as 2 how 2 live her life if she wants 2 share in that kind of lifestyle.

"Sounds like asking to be involved in more and more pain."

It is being involved in more and more pain. But everyone who's experienced it will tell you that it pales in comparison 2 the pain of DV. Don't go there lightly.

"I have read the struggles of many of the people who have been through what I have been through and at a certain point, it is self defeating."

Yes, the struggle IS self-defeating. Stop struggling. Start learning about YOU and growing. Let her figure out what she wants 2 do and learn. As you grow, you will be able 2 tell if she's truly coming back 2 the M. She won't be able 2 deceive you without your knowledge, and it will get increasingly hard for her 2 want 2 try. Again, it takes a lot of time.

"You know what, you have to have strength to leave, not strength to stay."

You have 2 have strength 2 do either. You have to have vir2e 2 stay, as well as strength. Running away, aka "leaving" won't solve your problems.

"Staying and trying to understand just enables the WS to continue bad behaviors."

I don't understand how this is.

"At a certain point, wether said or not, the behavior becomes acceptable beacuse the faithful spouse stays."

Not if you do plan A right.

"I refuse to hurt and e confused for years to come."

There is nothing you can do that will end the hurt other than 2 choose NOT 2 be hurt. Feeling hurt is a reaction, a choice you make based on what you perceive, not something that happens 2 you because of another's behavior. This is not 2 say that your W's behavior is "appropriate" and you need 2 come 2 grips with that. Quite the opposite. Just that "being a victim" won't endear your W 2 you. Personal strength might.

"I have seen enough! I dont know how people can subject themselves to "trying to win their spouse back", because a spouse who will turn to someone else when times are tough is a spouse that is not worth having!"

Again, you have 2 ask yourself why "times are tough." What about "times" can you change 2 make them "less tough?" Never mind the things she can do for now. Focus on the things YOU can address, for you, and primarily for your kids.

All my best,
-2long

TMCM:

That's one of my favorite Alan Parsons' songs! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

-2long

fff:

"One bit of advice to Dr Harley. YOu need to let people know when to exit a marriage. "

It would be irresponsible for ANY counselor 2 tell a couple that they should DV.

regards,
-ol' 2long

fff:

"The reality of it is, I want out of the marriage."

I reallly have 2 ask why?

"I dont have the patience or constitution to be with someone who has such little respect form myself or my children."

But you will have 2 work on increasing your patience and fortifying your consti2tion whether you remain M'd 2 your kids' mother or not. Might as well hunker down and do that with someone who knows you.

"Leopards dont change their spots!"

Possibly, but people aren't leopards. People can change their behavior. Your W can. Many, in worse si2ations than you and your W, have.

"My wife has a ton of issues that I am not responsible for and I dont feel it is my responsibility to see her through her issues."

How do you decide which issues are your responsibility and which aren't? On this site, we talk a lot about facing the consequences of our behaviors. Usually, we're referring 2 WSs and their choices 2 have As. But it applies 2 us BSs as well. In my case, and in most if not all others, the consequences of my behavior over the years - how I treated my W when I felt she was hurting me - are that she had an A. Think about it.

"I realize that I have 50% responsibility for the state of my marriage, BUT, my wife has an intimate relationship with another man."

And she is 50% responsible for the state of your M. The fact that she's having an A is a consequence of the state of your M, it isn't her "50%". Does that make sense?

"Why am I suddenly responsible for bringing her back to the marriage?"

You aren't. You never were. You are responsible for following your own heart 2 happiness for you and your children. If you're happy, she'll want a piece of that, and she may decide 2 come back 2 you. But it will take time. Possibly a long time. And a lot of hard work. For now, you will feel like you're doing all the work. You have 2, because she can't. But that doesn't mean you should be a doormat. Set an example of honesty that she can follow. Tell her what you know (which is plenty, so you don't need 2 snoop anymore), and tell her that it hurts you and your family. Don't put guilt trips on her. She will do that herself. Just show her that you accept her, warts and all, and let her make her decisions as 2 how 2 live her life if she wants 2 share in that kind of lifestyle.

"Sounds like asking to be involved in more and more pain."

It is being involved in more and more pain. But everyone who's experienced it will tell you that it pales in comparison 2 the pain of DV. Don't go there lightly.

"I have read the struggles of many of the people who have been through what I have been through and at a certain point, it is self defeating."

Yes, the struggle IS self-defeating. Stop struggling. Start learning about YOU and growing. Let her figure out what she wants 2 do and learn. As you grow, you will be able 2 tell if she's truly coming back 2 the M. She won't be able 2 deceive you without your knowledge, and it will get increasingly hard for her 2 want 2 try. Again, it takes a lot of time.

"You know what, you have to have strength to leave, not strength to stay."

You have 2 have strength 2 do either. You have to have vir2e 2 stay, as well as strength. Running away, aka "leaving" won't solve your problems.

"Staying and trying to understand just enables the WS to continue bad behaviors."

I don't understand how this is.

"At a certain point, wether said or not, the behavior becomes acceptable beacuse the faithful spouse stays."

Not if you do plan A right.

"I refuse to hurt and e confused for years to come."

There is nothing you can do that will end the hurt other than 2 choose NOT 2 be hurt. Feeling hurt is a reaction, a choice you make based on what you perceive, not something that happens 2 you because of another's behavior. This is not 2 say that your W's behavior is "appropriate" and you need 2 come 2 grips with that. Quite the opposite. Just that "being a victim" won't endear your W 2 you. Personal strength might.

"I have seen enough! I dont know how people can subject themselves to "trying to win their spouse back", because a spouse who will turn to someone else when times are tough is a spouse that is not worth having!"

Again, you have 2 ask yourself why "times are tough." What about "times" can you change 2 make them "less tough?" Never mind the things she can do for now. Focus on the things YOU can address, for you, and primarily for your kids.

All my best,
-2long

fff as much as you may feel that steadfast and committed and 2Long are pounding on you for giving up, they are not.

If you can put your feelings aside for a minute and digest what they told you, you'll see that they make perfect sense. If you are certain that divorcing your W is what's best for you and your children, then so be it, BUT be absolutely sure that it is really what you want because if you later change your mind, it may be too late to do anything about it.