Baba2:

You are a very angry and bitter person. In light of you being a member for so long, I find your attitude very difficult to understand. In addition, your negativeness is doing nothing to contribute to Appleman's or 2crushed's predicaments.

Your comments tend to be barbed and hurtful. Not that you have done so to me, because your words bear no weight and have no credence with me. If you were whole and sane, perhaps so. But it is patently obvious that you have a huge amount of recovery and soul-searching to do to address some inner issues that are remnants of your previous marital problems.

In that regard, I wish you the best. However, in the future, please refrain from making comments about mine and Zorweb's situation, as you have absolutely no clue with what is going on; the counsel you offer others is contra to MB precepts; and your attitude is contra to Web etiquette

Should you persist, you shall be reported to the moderators of this forum.

Godspeed,
STL

ps. Erasing your mess behind yourself further indicates the wrongness of what you are doing, Baba2.

<small>[ July 28, 2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: SeenTheLight ]</small>

Baba,

You posted the following on appleman’s post. Please leave the ugliness out of this poor souls thread. He really does not need this to deal with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I removed the quote as it is humiliating to my husband and me. I do not want anyone else to be able to read it. Zorweb</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not going to rehash my marriage and the injuries suffered by my stepchildren with you. The reason is that I do not trust you. You rub it in my face every chance you get. You do not deserve to be trusted or confided in. I am so profoundly sorry that I trusted you at one point enough to tell you intimate things about my self and my marriage… I did this in an attempt to get help. Instead of help I get attacked. Do realize that attacks on a person like the one above will only serve to teach people that it is not safe to speak out about the intimate issues here. If people believe that than they will not feel safe enough to get the help they need here.

Your posts are a form of abuse.

Your posts to Appleman are ugly, evil and of no good to anyone. If you feel that all WS should be thrown out and have no further value as humans, then why are on you MB? You have no business here since you do not believe in the MB concepts and continually undercut people’s attempt to heal.

STL does not sympathize with Appleman’s wife's (or any WS’s) affair or with his wife. He is trying to help Appleman save his marriage using the MB concepts. If you have no help to give then get out of here. STL is a wise and seasoned MB advocate as we have used them to save our marriage and have been living them for years now in our everyday life. He has a lot to offer here. And his posting here helps my marriage. What are you trying to do? Run him off?

You are evil. Again, if you do not understand the MB concepts then do not post to people.

You are way out of line and I am done ever talking to you. Get out of my life. You are a sick individual in your own way. I challenge you to have the strength of character that STL has had to look at himself critically, see his own daemons and deal with them. So far you have not shown that you have it. I've tried to tolerate you and to find good in you but it's just not there.

Are you aware of the evil you did with the ugly posts you made to my stepdaughter? She found them… and cried for hours because you are evil enough to attack an inured 13 year old. How dare you. How dare you.

You attack every WS here and just about everyone else every time you get a chance.
Baba, I am well aware that you have some serious marital issues that need to be dealt with. Perhaps your marriage would be better served if you used your energy to heal and repair your marriage instead to attacking posters here on MB. When you find yourself in a healthy marriage and you have dealt with your own anger and bitterness, then you might have the right to criticize others.

At least STL has now returned to his senses and is doing all a man can do to make things right with me and his children.

The time and energy used to deal with your ugly post stole time and help from Appleman.. he needed it and you affectively stole it. Again I do not need your crap nor does Appleman. Leave me alone.

<small>[ July 28, 2003, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: Zorweb ]</small>

STL and Zorweb,

I have been talking to baba and I told her I would post for her and offer you sincerest apologies. She knows that she provoked this with her inflamatory posts and deeply regrets it. Before you think that she isn't sincere, please hear me out. I have been talking to her for some time and trying to help her. Many times her posts get out of control, but to a large degree, I don't think most people understand why.

When she hears about the pain that some people undergo in these situations, she internalizes it and goes immediately into attack mode. She feels the need to protect those who have been hurt and she realizes that sometimes, she does that in very destructive ways. She has been working on it....I have been helping her to understand that when a post affects her deeply....she should probably not respond to it. Today, she knows she crossed the line in a big way and feels horrified about it. She asks for forgiveness.

Many of you know that she has not had children, but what I think few people realize is the reason she doesn't, is because she is so horrified by the pain that children in this world endure. The story of your daughter was something that has stayed with her and the thought of hurting her, makes her feel physically ill. She knows there is no excuse for losing her temper about that situation and that her post only made things worse.

She promises that if you can please give her another chance to show the two of you that she can be more sensitive in her posts, that she won't let you down. If you won't, she understands as well and will leave.

I have seen great changes in baba....not today...but definitely on other days. She struggles to understand things that she has never experienced. She is sorry as well about diverting help for appleman who she is genuinely distraught about.

I know it's hard to tell....but underneath the blunt exterior of baba....is someone who is determined to fight against injustice. She has to harness that in more productive ways to be sure, but there is an honesty and loyalty that is behind alot of her anger.

Again, STL and Zorweb.....she is very sorry and promises that this experience has taught her how much damage these posts can actually do. If you can find it in your hearts to allow her to show you (not just tell you) that she can do this, I have every faith that she will do her best.

star

I'm new on this site and curious: What are moderators for if stuff like this can be going on for a while and nobody contacts one? Wouldn't he/she be someone who would gently, wisely, and fairly deal with each poster's problem - or do they kick people off the MB or what?

I'm very disappointed by what I see going on here. This forum is not set up to be a back biting bashing session.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions but lets try to keep the negative feelings to yourself. Arn't you all hurting enough??

As for the negative feelings towards WS on here. That is something that has gone on for along time. Most on this site are the BS and well, have a hard time listening to what the WS has to offer. Not that its right, its just human nature.

This is a wonderful forum for all. It kept me sane and helped me get through the worst year of my life. I believe it is good for all concerned the BS and the WS and the OP. No where else are you going to really see just how heart wrenching this infidelity thing is. I can't imagine a whole lot worse happening to someone besides the death of a loved one.

Just remember everyone here is in pain if they weren't they wouldn't be here. Sometimes those who speak the most harsh are in the most pain and need the most help.

The only reason I have been lurking again is it is 4 yrs this week that my ex first affair was discovered and well for some reason I guess I feel I should be here to help if I can. I know just how terrible it all is for all of you.

So if you need advice or just a shoulder I will listen. Remember I was were you are now and I survived you will to.

Jill

star*fish:

Thank you for your input and clarifications. It was readily apparent to me that there are things that Baba2 has trouble with, and there are certain things that are more than likely triggers for her.

That is doubtlessly true for many who visit and post here.

However, if we cannot practice MB principles among ourselves in a fairly controlled environment, what does that say about our behaviors and lovebusting in our relationships? What example are we showing and setting for those that come here?

I would heartily urge Baba2 to revisit some of the MB content here, and utilize the compassion and wisdom of the people here to help her with some of the issues she is feeling/expressing.

Godspeed, and thanks again star*fish,
STL

<small>[ July 27, 2003, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: SeenTheLight ]</small>

Star*fish & Baba,

I am going to answer this knowing that you do not have to carry messages to baba as I am sure she is reading. I do thank you Star for doing what you do best, being a loving person.

Baba, I know much of your story. I read here more than I post. With over 4200 posts that’s a lot of reading. I understand why you do not have children. I also understand why you come out shooting from the hip as you do sometimes. But it does not help people and can really throw a person who is in a lot of pain for a loop.

But please realize that these posts hurt deeply.

Star is right (as always). If something affects you to the point that you answer in knee jerk anger then do not post. Wait until you calm down about it. I seldom respond shooting from the hip. I write all of my posts in MSWord. Some of them sit on my desktop for hours, even a few days until I decide that is really what I want to say. I may not go back to check grammar and typos at times, but I do put a lot of thought into content. I have written some heated responses.. all of which were either edited or relegated to trash. Perhaps that technique would help you. You could then say anything you want but post only the stuff that is going to be helpful.

Baba, I was very angry when I first saw your post. I seldom go off the handle but this did it for me. I’ve had time to cool down. I care about you baba and have also seen the changes in you. Guess because of that I was shocked by your posts here. I can forgive you. But realize I am deeply hurt and humiliated by this attack. Being candid in an open forum such as this leaves a person very vulnerable. This site has to be safe for people or they will not post here. Please help make it so.

But now what I am I supposed to do? Those who read your post now have a very lopsided view of STL and me. I really do not want to defend myself, my marriage and my children here on MB one more time. I feel that I have to defend my decision to save my marriage. That I have to tell people that it is not true that STL and I are the scumbags you described. I actually had a defense written but trashed it. What’s the use. So here is the short one.

STL and I are good people, doing our best in a terrible situation. Yes STL is a FWS. He was also a BS twice in his previous marriage. We have been in a very good recovery for over 2 years now. We have used MB to rebuild our marriage and even our family. STL nor I have done anything to harm our children (his or mine). Instead we are doing all that is in our power to help and protect them. Unfortunately the courts do not think it is necessary to protect children. So right now L-Z (step daughter) is on a court ordered summer visit with the perpetrators (drug and sex offenses). STL and I are horrified at the court's decision. They refused to view any evidence in making their decision. Since this is all a huge custody case and we are still trying to bring criminal charges I cannot say any more.

I don’t know what more to say. A large part of me wants to crawl into a hole and never come back here. Baba you may not know it but STL and I have endured some horrible attacks here.. even to the point of people send us hate email, etc. It's not easy to deal with sometimes.

<small>[ July 28, 2003, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: Zorweb ]</small>

Rose55

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm new on this site and curious: What are moderators for if stuff like this can be going on for a while and nobody contacts one? Wouldn't he/she be someone who would gently, wisely, and fairly deal with each poster's problem - or do they kick people off the MB or what?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">99.9% of the time things here go very smoothly without the intervention of the moderators. If baba had been a ‘drive by poster’ I would have asked her to delete her offending post and informed the moderator. That would be the end of that.

But baba is a well-liked, long time poster here. I would never ask that she be banned from MB as she gets a lot of support from the Emotional Needs forum. I have seen her growing for the better over time. She also gives a lot too. I don’t even have the authority or right to get her banned nor would I want to. But I do reserve the right to ask anyone who is being hurtful and using personal information to attack my husband and/or me to no longer post to me. I also reserve the right to give them a piece of my mind.

While everyone may be entitled to their opinions. Those who they hurt are also entitled to theirs and they are entitled to defend themselves. And it is never acceptable or right to insult, degrade, etc. a poster or their spouse. If we do this we hurt the BS and are we not encouraging them to not follow the rules of care and protection? Are we not telling them that it is ok to insult and speak badly of their spouse? There is no excuse for this.

People do also have the right to defend themselves and others .. Especially after it has happened on multiple occasions.

When I first came here WS bashing was quite the sport. I am ashamed to say that I got caught up in it some myself.. sort of a group think kind of thing. I don’t think it’s appropriate. There is a huge difference between attacking a person only because they are a WS and in giving a WS support to end their affair and rebuild their marriage, a dose of reality and a firm (but gentle) push in the right direction. Attacking is never acceptable.

You will find that more and more we have WS coming here looking for help in ending their affairs and saving their marriages. What message is sent if WS bashing is seen as ‘just human nature’? It is inappropriate and has no place on MB.

In the case where a BS is trying to Plan A and save the marriage, what good does it do? The BS loves the WS, wants to recovery the marriage. Often this bashing hurts the BS further.. we are bashing their loved one.. no matter how flawed that loved one maybe. And does this not teach them that they have the right to be abusive of their spouse? I have seen many cases here where a BS finally convinces their WS to join the MB forums for support. Than the WS reads the BS’s former posts and sees all of the WS bashing that went on. They see the terrible things the BS and other MB posters have said about them. And that’s it. They want nothing to do with MB. I’ve even see WS’s walk out of the marriage after they see the things said here. Two of the most important rules of MB are care and protection.. it is neither to bad mouth one’s spouse. We can always find an loving, caring perhaps gracious way to say something. For a poster in a lot of hurt… we need to guide them to this frame of mind… it’s called Plan A’ing. When a person Plan A’s in life and then comes here to bash their own WS or the WS of others.. they are in a false Plan A.

In the case of a WS who seems in a fog and is struggling with the affair and the marriage, what good does bashing them do? It will chase them away and perhaps end the one window that marriage might have.

In the case of a BS and WS who are in recovery, again the bashing does only harm. The message is that a WS can never, ever redeem themselves and be worthy of love again. If this is the case, then what are we all doing here anyway?

What good does WS bashing do the poster who is doing the bashing? None whatsoever. It is a destructive manner of expressing one’s anger. And when the basing is done by a person is has not experience infidelity in their marriage (as is the case with baba), it’s even more perplexing.

What good does it do to bash a FWS who has worked with their FBS to recover their marriage and has lived by the MB book for over 2 years? Again, none whatsoever. It only serves make them feel like nothing they do is enough. It also will chase them away from MB.

Appleman and 2crushed did not need their wives insulted and attacked. It was uncalled for. They love their wives and are hurting. The insults and attacks only add to their pain and already fragile self-images caused by the affairs.

How do you think it makes a BS feel that some people think that the spouse they love, no matter how flawed, is not worthy of… of what? Love? Acceptance? Redemption? We all know how an affair tares down the BS’s feelings of self worth. I know that when people do this with me it makes me feel as though I must be some sort of a doormat for giving my husband a second chance. After all what sort of a spineless idiot stays married to a cheater. Does this help me or any other BS who is rebuilding their marriage? And again what are we doing here? What is MB for?

After some discussions lately STL said that he wanted to join me here on MB again for a while…. We both thought that it would be a good refresher for him.. sort of a tune up. And I thought that since he’s been both a BS and a WS he could give some good insight… as he used to when he posted here before. Unfortunately, like before some people think that WS bashing is a sport and do not think it through. He left MB a long time ago… the WS bashing he had to put up with and the bashing I had to put up with because he posted here was a large part of why he left. We actually received emails telling him that although he was a very good grasp of the MB material and was obviously making MB work in his marriage, his input was not appreciated because he was a WS. Exactly what good did this do my marital recovery? I was very upset when he left because his posting here was helping our recovery and we lost that support.

Do remember that my H was the BS in his previous marriages. His first wife walked out without a word after only a year of marriage. He has never spoken to her again since day he kissed her good bye to go on maneuvers. She left with her biker/druggy boyfriend. He retuned home to find her gone… she took nothing.. no clothing, no personal belongings and left no word. He had no idea what happened.. if she was dead or alive. He searched for her for a year before he found her and the OM living together on the opposite coast.

In the last few months he was with his second wife he found out that she had multiple affairs in the last 6 years of their 14-year marriage. When he asked her to end her affair she abandoned him and their three children. He has custody of the two younger ones today.

MB has not only helped us repair our marriage. It has helped him finally heal and put into perspective the pain he suffered in his previous marriages. He may have been a WS more recently, but he has been a BS too. Most BS’s end up having secondary affairs if a good strong recovery does not occur. It is not an excuse, only a fact of human nature. He sees all of this from both sides.

I hear almost every BS here wish that their WS would just read the MB material and implement it. This is said over and over again. Yet when one does he is trashed my many here… huh? I guess they really do not want their WS to embrace MB? Or is it that they just don’t think that WS really can redeem themselves. They also must not think that MB works.

Yes it is a wonderful forum. It certainly helped our marriage. And I know we have helped many here too. I would suggest that the most important part of the MB forums is the hope it gives and the many marriages are that are repaired. It is also the many people whose marriages did not survive the infidelity but the BS or WS poster who has grown into a much healthier person who now knows how to have a healthy marriage.

Not all here are in pain. STL and I are in a good strong recovery. I’m happy, he is happy. We are here to never forget MB concepts and to help others.

Not all of the posters here have been through infidelity, though they may have other pain in their lives… more akin to the more normal things we all go through in a relationship as it ebbs and flows. It is important for people to realize that no matter how much pain they may or may not be in or how much help they need, it is wrong to hurt other posters.

It is also important for people to remember that there are hundreds of people here who only read posts…. They are bs/ws/op and anyone else who is interested. If you bash instead of follow MB concepts…. If you the intimate details that a poster shares here in an attempt to attack or hurt them….. they will not respect this site and will leave with a bad taste for MB.

Z and S,
This is when a poster decides when and how to weed out responces to thread. It takes time to know who is a safe poster and who is not, who to respect and who not to, who is responding angrily and who is not. It takes patience, practice and an ounce of commonsense. I have observed both Z and S do use commonsense when posting, this does not apply to them.
I have an enormous amount of respect for both Z and S, as well as Baba. I recognised along time ago unresolved issues and still continue to follow and silently support.
Don't crawl into a hole and dissappear, please. You are all valued.
xo
2nd

<small>[ July 28, 2003, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: 2ndfiddle ]</small>

No one here is qualified to be a psychiatrist or a marriage counselor unless you went to an accredited school for this "profession". Some people give good advice and some give not so good advice, but I think if you are in a serious problem with your marriage you need to look at professional advice to learn what is text book and to have someone who sees you and works with you one to one and knows your entire story. Advice that works for one person may not work for another of similar sounding problems.

So, I think if you are going to get ripped due to a comment that was attacking your ego, you should put it in the proper category, "not helpful".

Baba comes out with gut reaction and there is no venom in it for the injured person. She is simple and avoids twists and ambiguous advice that can be most of a headache hear. I do not think she is harmful in any way unless you take the things on this board too seriously. It is a labor to read and write on some issues, and how we respond is merely a reflection of our own tone in the forum. Baba is straight forward and brazen with opinions, not unlike a lot who post here. I happen to like how she answers from her own heart. But like I said, if you are in a serious situation, get professional guidance because this is a forum, not a professional corner for free therapy.

It is an important distinction for folks to know that Zorweb and STL were harmed unnecessarily by the words baba said. That isn't my opinion....but baba's. She knows that her first reaction is just to scream at the injustice and pain that shows up on this board. We have been working a long time together to help her....because it is her wish....to be able to post more sensitively and not just react. Toward that aim, she has really written some honest, to the point....but not so inflamatory posts. Before we started this (at least 6 moths ago now), she used to get attacked all the time for the way she expressed herself and was very afraid that she would have to leave the board. So we have really worked together talking about these things because it is her aim to deliver her message with more respect. So the point is, that it isn't Z and S's sole opinion that she was out of line....but it is baba's too. Her apology is genuine and she feels she wronged these people. She is sorry.

On a side note Zorweb. I wanted to tell you this. When I asked why she got so mad. Her response was that she thought the world of you. I'm sure it's confusing to really understand how that translated into these angry posts, but as usual it fits her pattern of disliking intensely anyone who hurts the folks she cares about. You love STL but baba feels very protective of you.....and is afraid he will hurt you again.

Anyway, just wanted to clarify this for those who feel the need to defend baba. She has finally gottem some respect here after all this time and she is sorry for jeopardizing that or hurting anyone.

Gotta love that Baba woman!
Gosh, I am glad she is human. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

STL and Zorweb,

If you are agreeable, and I understand if you are not.....would it be possible to remove this thread in the interest of the board and the privacy of all involved. If so, please asks the mods. Thanks for understanding.

star,

As noble as your efforts may be to take the soap box in defense of baba, she is a big girl. Baba has no problem spewing her venomous posts, allow her to clean them up as well. IMO an apology is less than sincere if it does not come from the true source.

If baba is consistently posting in such a fashion then maybe an MB "timeout" might be in order. Baba chooses to post in this fashion. It's her style. It's how she communicates herself. If her emotions are running away on her and spilling into her posts then she certainly needs to steer away from the threads that trigger those emotions.

I have read some of baba's posts in the past. They are not all laced with venom. She often offers helpful advice. Her character is not entirely flawed by any means. She has triggers. We probably all do.

Baba,

Avoid the triggers. Post your own apologies.

jmho
ba109

BA, I did not post my apologies because I was respecting Zorweb emphatically telling me never to contact, post, or talk with them ever again and to get out of their lives forever and that I was evil. I did not want to cause them any more pain by posting to them directly. So I did as they asked. "Of course" I am sorry for hurting them since I am not really evil.

But you see, I cannot post directly to them after they asked me not to. I am respecting their request to have nothing to do with them and their lives. If I did post they would think bad of me "yet again" and would feel the hurt and pain which caused them to be so upset at me and we do not want to start this cycle of pain all over again do we?

And regarding triggers and a time out. I will never post on JFO board again because the pain here is too much for me to stand. I have never seen so much pain on one board, I feel for everyone here. If I am not here, I cannot hurt anyone can I? I never went to this board before yesterday. And Now I never will come here again.

<small>[ July 28, 2003, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Baba2:

I am glad you acknowledge the pain that others' posts still causes you. That is the first step in recovery: to be aware of what triggers you, and why.

So it would be emotionally healthy for you to work on that; and the forums here can offer a lot of good support and counsel.

There are a lot of people who could benefit from your experiences. So why detract from the good because of it?

I would encourage you to read the posts ... absorb them, give it some time to trigger your anger and move beyond it, and then post constructively. It then becomes a win-win situation for all concerned. You learn to identify and control your triggers AND you can contribute significantly and positively to this community.

Godspeed,
STL

Star*fish (and Baba2):

I thought over deleting this post, and was on the verge of having it done.

But there is some good in here as well: we do not sweep the dirt under the carpet. We address our problems in a manner that MB principles teach us. In doing so, we set the best example possible. We acknowledge that we have problems on occasion in the community, but also that we are capable of dealing with them in a loving, thoughtful way.

Godspeed,
STL

baba,

We all lose our cool once in a while. I've never been bitten by one of your posts and I don't suspect that I will. Your emotional posts seem to be triggered by very specific things. You know what they are.

Avoiding a certain forum may be a way of avoiding those triggers. I have a feeling however, that you will find them throughout this website. They come with the territory.

If this website is causing you pain instead of helping your marriage, then it's probably not a good place to visit. That's what I meant by a "time out."

ba109

Star*fish (and Baba2):

I thought over deleting this post, and was on the verge of having it done.

But there is some good in here as well: we do not sweep the dirt under the carpet. We address our problems in a manner that MB principles teach us. In doing so, we set the best example possible. We acknowledge that we have problems on occasion in the community, but also that we are capable of dealing with them in a loving, thoughtful way.

But I did remove Baba2's name from the title, as the concept applies to all counterproductive posting.

Godspeed,
STL