</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife has had and still may be having an affair with a co-worker who is a VP at her business. I too taped a long and explicit converstaion where my W and the OM discussed swinging, two-somes, threesomes, etc. Further, my w left the OM a fantasy voicemail about a threesome with another woman. I have since discovered gifts, overnight hotel visits that my W and the OM have had. My W knows I know everything and is scared that I will tell her boss and they will both lose their jobs. Further, my wife probably cares more about the OM than me. I dont think the fog has lifted, but I cannot prove there has been nc. My wife does not want to discuss the situation and is not actively seeking help. Further, when I confronted my w with the tape, she lied to me about who it was and she said she made the sex talk up.

I have not told her boss, the OM W, or my wifes parents. I am not sure what that will accomplish. You have to ask yourself if you are going to stay in the marriage. If not, why cause the anguish by outing the A. If you want to save your marriage, expose the A!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did not want to highjack bigredesq's thread and so I decided to address your pov of not outing the A.

Your marriage has no hope of being saved as long as your WW is having her A with the OM. Plan A requires that the BS outs the A to at least the OM's W and if the A still continues after D-day, to out it to all close friends and family. As long as the A is kept secret, the affairees will continue to enjoy themselves without worrying about paying the consequences of their illicit relationship. If your WW and her boss end up losing their jobs then they have nobody to blame but themselves. Sure she'll hate you for revealing the A, and blame you for causing her to lose her job, but she'll have learned a valuable life lesson about paying the consequences for having an A. If she decides she no longer wants to be married to you and divorces you, who is going to be the loser in the long run? you or her? I beleive you know the answer to these questions. So please reconsider your decision of not revealing the A to the OM's W and to others close to the two of you.

I am not sure where TMCM got this quote from but I wanted to chime in. I too was afraid of exposing my FWW's A. I thought she would be mad and would Dv me for it. When W and I hit rock bottom, I finally had the guts to expose the A to everyone I could think of.

And the poo poo hit the fan. W has really pi$$ed at me. But you know what? The A was over within two weeks. Looking back now, my only regret is that I didn't take the advice of everyone here who tried to get me to expose the A.

We are now four months into recovery!

fff, I agree with TMCM. You have to expose the A if you’re going to save your marriage.

When I found out about my wife’s A, the first thing I did was call her dad to come pick her up. That day, her whole family found out. After, I brought her back home, I setup a meeting with OM’s wife and had my wife tell her what was going on. This forced NC on both sides. I then called OM’s boss. OM is still working at my W’s company until he can be transferred in a few months and he is scared sh!tless to even see my W. Right now my W is going through withdrawal from OM, but she knows her A is completely over now and there is not a chance it would ever work.

I think you need to do the same thing. Good luck and let us know how everything’s going.

Thanks, I will out the A. I am nervous about it, but I will do it. I thought the only way to get this going in the right direction was to out the A.

On a side note, I am far more solid than 1.5 months ago. Thinking much more clearly, and seeing a C for myself. MC is not going well, MC wont work with us because my wife continues to lie about her A and the extent of the A. Wife is still in denial. In the meantime, I am taking care of myself and having what fun I can. I will make the best of this situation, and I see it as a test of my character. Lemons make Lemonaide

fff- I just used the lomons line on someone else the other day! Hehehe

Congrats on the IC! You are right the MC will do no good until W is ready to work on the M. Until that point Plan A Plan A Plan A!

Again, my only regrets is that I didn't tell all sooner!

You were right about the tapings...horible! I didn't see and kids in the thread...? If so, tread light for little ears...

2 kids, 7 and 5. Kids are oblivious at this point. Want to keep it that way. WS is still foggin. Not following the radical truth process. She doesnt get it. I will out the A and see what how it goes from there!

Thanks

MC is not going well, MC wont work with us because my wife continues to lie about her A and the extent of the A.
You don't have to have joint mc to learn how to "work" on the marraige and what you should be doing while the affair is ongoing.

Good for you fff! Even in the worst case scenario where marriage doesn't recover from the A, your efforts to expose your W's A with the OM will benefit you, your children, and in the long run, even her. Who knows, you MAY even save another family from the OM, who may learn a lesson about the consequences of messin with a married woman that he may think twice about doing it in the future.

Don't be a stranger and keep us posted.

fff,

You have already stated what you must do. TMCM is a good guide...

I am thinking positive thoughts for you, for strength in yourtask, and hope for you and your wife in the aftermath.

Honesty is the foundation of all worthwhile relationships.

Jake.

An update,

My W insists on going out with business associates that include the OM. She says the A is over, but gets very protective about "her time" and her privacy. On thursday, I got a sweet VM from WS telling me that she had a dinner to attend on friday night and that I could stay late on thursday or go to the gym or do whatever I wanted. When I spoke to her late thursday afternoon, I asked her to send me the email about the dinner she had to attend. She hemmed and hawed and then said she had someone on the other line and had to go. When she called me back, she said that the email she got only mentioned a happy hour thrown by the business group that the OM runs. When I reminded her of NC, she basically told me that she was going because her work associates were going and that I was trying to control her. When she got home at 11:30, she said she spent the last 2 hours at starbucks crying. Basically she admitted that there was no dinner and that she went to happy hour with OM and business associates(she didnt admit this, but it doesnt take a rocket scientits to figure it out) She didnt want to talk about it so I left it alone. On Saturday, my wife wanted to go out for a few hours. She needed time away. I believe she is seeing OM, as he lives close by. She claims NC, but they work together every day, how can she have nc. Further, my wife, although remorseful, has not seen er counselor in a few weeks and is changing counselors again. I am exasperated, and confused. Any advise?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am exasperated, and confused. Any advise?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you exasperated to the point of setting personal boundaries that are not open for negotiation? You must calmly and respectfully convey to her that you are not trying to control her but that you will not let yourself be controlled by her her issues like her privacy, not looking for another job, not going to counseling, etc. and that they will eventually push you to the point of no return. Let her know that she has to decide which of the two is truly important to her, the OM or you, so that you can then plan your life out appropriately.

I have doe exactly that. I have calmly told her that I am trying to save our marriage, not control her. I have also explained to her that in order for our marriage to survive, she must abide by the following principles. 1. NC - ever even if it means leaving her job 2. Radical Truth - no 1/2 truths - also she must in my presence tell he mother the truth. 3. She must end the A with OM in my presence, and provide OM "goodbye letter". 4. She must seek out psychiatric help and submit to a psychiatric evaluation. She must then take whatever steps necessary to heal. 5. She will not have a personal cell phone, nor will she have personal email access. 5. She will be limited to a spending budget( she cannot control her spending) and will not have access to cash other than her budget.

She is not responding well to these conditions. She is fighting for privacy and secrecy, which concerns me. I still believe the A is alive, as she gets out on Frdiay, Sat and Sunday. I also believe that because both could lose their jobs, that OM is influencing her to save his own [censored]. She still cannot talk about A, nor will she tell me the obvious truth about the A and who she is involved with( to protect the OM and his job) I believe the OM is playing her like a fiddle and manipulating her for his own good. WS only seems to want to abide by any "boundries" when she is faced with losing something she likes or wants( not just in this situation) I believe WS is a narcisist, which scares me. Only her actions will tell me if she is interested in saving our marriage. For now, I believe she is still in the fog!

Then it's up to you now to decide whether to continue fighting to save your marriage by going to Plan B or to divorce her and move on. I know it sounds easy for me to say it but you know that those two are essentially the only basic choices you have to make any significant progress in your life.

fff,
here's a suggestion that you might find interesting. back off...just back off! she is so fogged out that nothing you say is being integrated onto her hard drive...so to speak. it's like the data is hitting a fire wall!

she is doing just as she pleases and you and the children can just be damned! and that's her attitude and guess what? you can't change it! so here's what i would do. tell everyone everything!

her parents, her friends, the OM's wife, all of their friends all of your W's relatives...i mean cousins, aunts and uncles...everybody!

i would send a letter to the HR department of the company she works for and that he works for. i would send letters to company clients if i had to! are you getting this? it's hard ball time!

then on a personal basis i would just disconnect. i would ask her no questions and i would show NO interest in where she goes, who she sees and where she's been. if she tries to tell you or call to let you know what she intends to do, i would simply answer with words, like "whatever," or say something like, "i'm sure that it's none of my business where you go and who you see." and be very cool about it. not hostile or angry!

if she responds asking you why you're behaving as you are, i would tell her in as kind and diplomatic was as i could, that you don't expect that she's telling you the truth and you don't any longer believe a word she says and that you're just not interested in hearing any more lies.

if she escalates the situation like asking "why are you staying then...?" i would say something simple like because this is where i live and this is my home. understand something. at this point you owe her no explanations about anything.

here's the key to the whole mess. you must manage to do all this while not ever being rude, angry or mean. you must always be assertive but loving.

then my friend it's time for you to begin making changes in your own life and persona. it's of the utmost importance that you begin establishing a life of your own seperate from her.

look, she now goes out on her own on weekends anyway so next time she tells you she has a business function on saturday night tell her NO...that she needs to be home with the kids because you have something planned!

you can't give her free rain...she has to be reminded that she still has responsabilities at home that she must at least share and this is the way to do it. and by the way...don't answer her questions either. where you go is up to you and you don't have to discuss it with her.

now this all may seem manipulative but guess what? it's neccassary because it creates a change of pace or what's called a 180...a total turnaround in behavior! try it and see.

coach

fff, coach gave you an excellent third choice, Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

Good advice I will follow! I like the acking off, I have been doing all of the work lately, I need a break. I will update!

Update,

Its been a month or two since my last post. My WW has not improved much. She has "come clean" with me, but still lies about details of her affair. After one lies to anothe for 1.5 years, the liles become easy to spot. My wife has lied to me about not seeing OM and she for some reason decided to tell OM off at a business function. I have no proof this happened and I doubt that it tool place. My wife is scared she is going to lose her job if anyone finds out about the affair, why would she tell him off at a business function. I also found out that the OM got called into HR about making a comment about my wife on the corporate jet. Someone overheard him saying that he wanted my wife to serve drinks in a french maids outfit and reported it to the ethics hotline. Prior to this, my wife was suddenly called into work at 8 pm. I believe she was meeting with OM to talk about HR issue and to cover for him. Needless to say, my marriage is over. I dont trust my wife and will never again trust her. She goes from protecting OM and her privacy to telling me everything in the span of 2 days. I dont trust her motives and I believe OM is protecting himself through my wife. Further, I believe that my wife is in love with OM, which is part of the reason she protects him. I have tried to get WW into MC and tried to get her to see her own Counselor. She claims to be seeing a counselor, but I dont believe her. After D-Day, when she would go to a counselor, she would call me on her way to the counselor. Now, no calls, and I cannot figure out when she would see the counselor with her work schedule. Also, the day i told her i wanted a d, she went out and called OM. he left her 3 messages on her cell phone that night.

I appreciate all the MB advice etc. i hope that each of you can resolve your marriages to your desires. TOO MUCH COFFEE, I appreciate your advise! Thanks for your patience, I was a bear in June and July. Bbest of luck to all!!!

fff I'm so sorry about the latest development with your W but I totally understand and after all only you know what is best for fff and his kids.

Don't be a stranger and come back here to give other newbies your insights.

I do have one insight, after discovering an affair, determine what you want to know and what you dont want to know and go from there. Also, WS needs to take action if marriage is to recover. Do not confuse action with words. You will be vunerable, and confused, BuT DO NOT MISTAKE WORDS FOR ACTION!!

Thanks