[QUOTE]Originally posted by betrayed_again:
[QB]I apologize in advance for the length of this post…

DEAR BETRAYED AGAIN:

Thank you for not leaving her. I think it is only by the Grace of God you didn't leave her.
What I don't see often on this marriage builder site is spiritual advice.
YOUR WIFE NEEDS TO KNOW THAT she not only has severely damaged a marriage, but she has RISKED LOSING HER SOUL. Does everyone think that we live FOREVER? Doesn't everyone know that our bodies age and eventually die? DOESN'T ANYONE REALIZE that there is a GOOD CHANCE we have to give an ACCOUNT for our words and actions?????????????????
I have heard that we are not damned, but that we SEND OURSELVES TO HELL. Many who have died in car accidents and on operating tables say the same thing: We review our lives at the end and we feel the pain we have caused in the lives of others and we come to UNDERSTAND how we ABUSED LOVE. We become so ashamed of our wicked ways, we cannot stand the sight of God--pure love and unfathomable light.
YOUR WIFE IS SO INCREDIBLY BLIND to her own actions.
YOUR ONLY HOPE is to beg God to open her eyes. She is not only screwing her own soul but also the souls of her kids.
All I can think of to say is MERCY, MERCY, MERCY!!For the sake of HIS SORROWFUL PASSION, HAVE MERCY. Oh God, restore this woman's sight!
Bless you for staying with her. Bless you!

SAYno2Divorce if were only that easy to get through a foggy minded WS head, then affairs and marital recovery would not be the ordeals that they are. But sadly, many WS's are just too addicted to their selfishness that their loved ones pain doesn't matter to them. Leaving a spouse is always the last resort, and it's done after so many unsuccesful attempts by the BS to reach out to the WS. If betrayed again reaches the point where he concludes that his WW is not going to put the effort to rebuild what she has destroyed, then we must respect his decision whether we like it or not.

SayNo:
I have to concur with TMCM. We offer guidance her for those that seek it. If BA decides he cannot continue for reasons he cannot control (like further betrayal), then he will make his own decisions. We are given free will. Respect BA's ability to use his as we are free to use ours.

Dear BA!

I am a lurker of many years here at MB who seldom posts. But having read this whole tread I feel your wife have been painted evil from to many of the posters. I am not WS, but I have read quite a lot of posts from women in her position, and I have learned much in doing so. It is not difficult to try to understand her world right now. I do not know her apart from the glimpses you have given of her. But from these I do not see a cynical cheater riding out this storm and waiting for another chance to cheat in the future. On the contrary, I see a wife who love you and (now) know it.

She was fooled by her own hormones and by Satan to do some very selfish choices. And then, when she had taken the bait, she found herself addicted. The biochemistry of an affair is very strong. It is of the same kind that people experience in the “in love” phase of an early relationship. These hormones relax after some time in a marriage and are replaced by another kind of “staying love”. People in affairs often say: “I have never felt this way”, “We were soulmates”, “a meeting of souls”, We were meant for each other” and so on.
What they experience is this strong chemistry. I think God has given this chemistry to new couples to cement their relationship for life. But in the A it is miss-used since it spent outside the marriage. People in an A miss-read this “high on hormones” experience as love.

Having put herself in this situation, your wife finds herself thorn between the deep old love for you, and the addictions to the hormones. And she is unable to chose. So she rides both horses and refuses to see that this is in itself a choice. One can not honour the marriage and at the same time have an affair. We humans have an enormous capacity to fool ourselves. You are hurt by all her lies to you. She has lied even more to herself!
She is not an evil person. She is a good person caught in a web of her own lies and her hormone addiction. In this delirious state of mind, called “fog” her at MB, almost any self-illusion is possible. The most stupid thoughts are considered obvious truths or reasonable requests etc. It is a kind of madness.

After D-day #2 she suddenly finds herself forced into the real world, and she has to face some ugly, ugly truths. Truths about herself and what she has been capable of doing. What she has done to her marriage, to you, and to her own integrity. And also the truth that she very well may loose you. All these truths are too much to her at the moment. Too overwhelming, and too painful. So she partly closes her eyes to the first set of painful truths. But she can not ignore the danger of losing you. She must do something! And realising this she panics!

We adult people think we are so reflective and wise. Yet we very often behave just like children. I have five kids. They are well behaved and they know they are loved. But I have made an observed with all of them when they were small: If we parents were to busy, say we have to prepare our home for guests. The small kid feels that we are busy. She (he) feels we have no time for her and feels rejected. And she becomes increasingly clinging and provocative to be noticed from us. We parents are busy and give her a toy to distract her. She feels even more rejected, and becomes more clinging, more provocative etc. The kid is really crying: “Give me some confirmation of your love to me, please, please!» But the language does not communicate to the busy parents. Had we spent 120 seconds to give her a hug and a kiss and a calm explanation, then perhaps the kid had relaxed!

I think your wife’s behaviour is an example of the same psychological reaction. We are not logical beings. So try to understand her. She knows what she has done is terrible. She hates herself for it, and she is very much afraid that her actions will drive you away.

My advice is contrary to what many here have given to you. I say you should give her some emotional confirmation that you still love her. You saw the effect when she saw your tears. She is most certainly now afraid that you hate her for what she has done. Show her (not just tell her) that you still love her. I think she is too afraid to reach out to you. She expects to be rejected. (And reads that into all you say, even if you don’t say it). So, like the child, she provokes and clings to you. Her strange and provocative behaviour must be read in this light. When she said she did this out of fear to loose you that is correct. Like a bird in front of a snake she is paralysed, and she is unable to do the obvious actions to counter the treat (of loosing you.)
And like the kid her actions are very counterproductive to her goal.
We humans are strange beings!

Reach out to her. Touch her in a non-sexual way. Give her hugs. Massage her shoulders. Stay close to her when she is around. And say that you love her. Be open about your fear of loosing the woman you married, and let her see your emotions and tears. Allow yourself to be week.
I think then that all what you expect from her will then be given freely. On the other hand, if you insist that “she was the one to brake it, she must fix it”, you may find that the she is paralysed with fear. The panic and the expected rejection from you will prevent her from giving what you expect from her. And her hurtful actions and words will continue.

If you confirm your love, and give her closure, she may later be able to face the truths she now ignores, like the pain the A has given you, and her ownership of the A.

May God give both of you the courage to take the first step!

Sorry for the length of this post, I was carried away!

Once again, thanks to all who have posted and given me advice.

Just Learning,
So, I ask again, when is the right time to become emotionally invested in the marriage again?
Emotional detachment is a great tool when the WS isn’t interested or serious about fixing the marriage. But, what happens when the WS seems genuinely focused on the solution this time?

Part of me wants to hold on to this marriage, but I see so many obstacles. Because of my resentment and betrayal, I feel I sabotage any positive efforts. Part of me doesn’t even want to try to fix our marriage because I’m upset of how uncaring and self-focused she has become.
But, she continues to do things that make me want to give her another chance.

If I give her another chance, I cannot continue to be completely emotionally detached, right?
I understand that you feel she should have to do all the work, but is that reasonable? Won’t anyone give up if they continually try to fix something and the other person doesn’t do much more that sit by and watch? A marriage can’t be fixed by just one person, but I just don’t know if I can honestly do it when I have so much anger, resentment, distrust, and pain over this ordeal.

Up until I discovered the A the second time around, I still had deep resentment and pain over the whole ordeal. I thought of doing something nice for her and, half the time, I’d talk myself out of it. I’d think: why should I do something nice for her when she’s done so much harm to me and our marriage? I know this is a selfish view (and I’ve never been this way before), but this time it will be 100 times worse. I can’t fix a marriage with that attitude. If I combine these feelings with the distrust and constant monitoring, I just don’t see much “good” to come for years.

Part of me sees so much more hope by walking away. There’s no doubt that I feel it would be the easier path to take. She is showing me all the things she’ll do this time to fix things and make our marriage better than ever. I believe that right at this moment, she is completely focused and honest about what she’ll do. Unfortunately, those commitments require work and I feel she’ll gradually lose interest as time goes by. Other life demands will begin to take priority over our marriage and things will go back to being the same.

I don’t want the same marriage I’ve had for the last few years. I want something that makes me feel loved and DESIRED. I want someone who thinks about me and does nice things for me just to make me happy. I want someone who acknowledges the things I do for her and my family –someone who cares and supports the things that interest me. She says she’ll do all of that this time around, but I just don’t buy it.

SAYno2Divorce,

As far as my faith goes, it was what kept me in the marriage the first time around. I felt that I made a promise to my wife and God to stay with her through good times & bad. I felt good that I could make things better with His guidance. I loved her so much, I knew she’d eventually see that I’m the better person. Well, after all my sacrifices and efforts, she continued the affair for another 10 months.

Do you think that sometimes God wants something else for us?

I agree with TMCM and Gregg M –there should only be so much betrayal and pain before the BS takes another path. I’m not sure if I’m there yet, but I hope He gives me the guidance. I pray that He can show me the way because this will be one of the biggest decisions I’ve ever had to make.

BA, Frank57 brought some very valid points but I must stress that without any concrete actions from her part that prove she is committed to rebuild what she has destroyed, then all the beautiful words that come out of her mouth are nothing but empty statements. Let's face it, if it were up to her she would chose to have you and the OM in her life satisfying all of her needs, and until she shows you with her deeds (follow a marital recovery plan based on the four rules for a succesful marriage) that she no longer wants to be a cake walker, you are better off to emotionally detach from her before you lose all you love for her.

BA one of the many good things about emotional detachment is that it prevent you from raising your hopes up at the littlest sign of improvement from your WW and then have them come crashing down in flames back to Earth.

It also keeps your negative emotions like resentment from taking over and blasting her with love busters which can kill any desire on her part to rebuild the marriage.

Emotional detachment keeps you in the 'show me more' frame of mind before you start trusting her again. If the marriage is to survive she is going to have to show a consistent pattern of behavior before you can be sure that she is a woman worthy of your love.

Give yourself a timeframe, like a year, before you make any decision to continue the marriage or end it once and for all. During that time you will be preparing yourself for any way that the marriage may go, and it will make the transition to move on much, much easier for you will know that you gave it your best.

<small>[ September 01, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

HI BA

TMCM is giving you good advice. A timeframe for her actions to prove what she says. Without giving any time you will never know.

-quote-----------------------------------------
I don’t want the same marriage I’ve had for the last few years. I want something that makes me feel loved and DESIRED. I want someone who thinks about me and does nice things for me just to make me happy. I want someone who acknowledges the things I do for her and my family –someone who cares and supports the things that interest me.
-----------------------------------------------
Hey you and me in the same boat there. My marraige in the last few years has been fairly loveless. I initiated any form of affections.(Not enough and not the way she liked it it seems) We drifted apart. I really wanted to get closer to her but just didn't know how.
I can't return to the old marriage, and if that is all I can hope for then I would leave. I do have hope and faith for the future though. I think you do also otherwise you would have been gone. I hope your W can raise to your expectations but I would plan for the worse. Be prepared. People are giving you wise advice on that one.

<small>[ September 01, 2003, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Silverthorn ]</small>

I also suggest that start keeping a daily journal to chronicle the good and bad events and interactions with her. This will help you spot any trends or patterns of improvement, deterioration, or stagnation so that when you ultimately make your decision, pro or con, it will be based on solid evidence and will not on one bad event or interaction. It can also give you some emotional boost if you do spot some significant improvements in her behavior as well.

BA,

Don't have much time before I leave on a trip, but I would like to address some of the things you asked and mentioned </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, I ask again, when is the right time to become emotionally invested in the marriage again?
Emotional detachment is a great tool when the WS isn’t interested or serious about fixing the marriage. But, what happens when the WS seems genuinely focused on the solution this time?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You will become reengaged as your W makes you comfortable and loved in the marriage. Does that mean you don't allow her a chance. That is your call. Frank has some good thoughts for you to think about and so does the Coffeeman.

So what I would suggest is that you think about what they are saying and see if you can combine the best of both suggestions. Once you have this sort of figured out, then I would like to recommend that you talk to your W. If you decide to give her another chance, the explain to her what you want the marriage to be for you and for her. It needs to be a win-win situation. If she feels she cannot do it, you have your answer. She needs to know that you can and will walk if YOU are not happy in the marriage. THis is NOT a threat, it is an honest statement of your feelings (if indeed you feel this way). She needs to know that you will engage in rebuilding but emotional reengagement will only come when you feel comfortable, safe, and love in the marriage.

It is a trust issues isn't it??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Part of me wants to hold on to this marriage, but I see so many obstacles. Because of my resentment and betrayal, I feel I sabotage any positive efforts. Part of me doesn’t even want to try to fix our marriage because I’m upset of how uncaring and self-focused she has become.
But, she continues to do things that make me want to give her another chance.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Talk with her about your feelings and your concerns and yes your love for her, but mostly of your lack of trust for her. She needs to see hope, but she also needs to see the damage. I don't be mean or LB her and that is crucial to the disengaging while still in the relationship. You must not LB. You can express how you feel, but do it kindly, lovingly, and honestly.

If she does focus on you, show her your pleasure in doing this. You might come to realize that all she really needed was training and that she can learn to derive enjoyment from making other people happy, not just making herself happy. This is something someone can learn, but it does require positive reinforcement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I give her another chance, I cannot continue to be completely emotionally detached, right?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you can. I think you are missing what some of us were telling you. Let me offer you a famous quote by Elie Weismann (I think I spelled his name correctly): The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference.

What people are telling you when they say detach is to accept the possibility that divorce is the best way, and be ready to walk away. However, that doesn't mean you cannot give her another chance. It means you do it with "reservations" about her sincerity, but you do it knowing you can leave.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand that you feel she should have to do all the work, but is that reasonable? Won’t anyone give up if they continually try to fix something and the other person doesn’t do much more that sit by and watch? A marriage can’t be fixed by just one person, but I just don’t know if I can honestly do it when I have so much anger, resentment, distrust, and pain over this ordeal.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! BA you are coming to the "crust of the bisquit" here. You need to heal and this takes time. The healing must occur whether you are in the marriage or not. So this will occur.

What you can do is let her make plans and discuss them with you for her showing you that she is earnest and honest this time. What you can do is tell her what you are feeling and that you are working on YOU right now to handle the resentment, distrust, and pain. That you are trying not to LB her, but she is going to have to carry the load of rebuilding while you heal.

By doing this you are part of the rebuilding, but you are addressing yourself, she is going to have to addresss the marriage and you. It is not a hopeless situation, but it is one where she must drive the bus. She must come up with plans for you two to do, she must ask and discuss with you ways for you BOTH to feel better and more comfortable in the marriage.

Her doing the work means she is the one to iniate alot of the discussions and the efforts to rebuild. It does not mean you won't help, engage in conversation, you should support her. However, your major goal is to heal and lose the distrust the pain, and the anger. It is best for you to do this whether or not you stay in the marriage.

So again this requires communications. I would suggest that you explain to her that you spent 10 months doing your best working on the marriage, while she just went along for a ride and continued her A. This time the success of this marriage depends on HER commitments, her efforts, and your ability to heal from this betrayal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Up until I discovered the A the second time around, I still had deep resentment and pain over the whole ordeal. I thought of doing something nice for her and, half the time, I’d talk myself out of it. I’d think: why should I do something nice for her when she’s done so much harm to me and our marriage? I know this is a selfish view (and I’ve never been this way before), but this time it will be 100 times worse. I can’t fix a marriage with that attitude. If I combine these feelings with the distrust and constant monitoring, I just don’t see much “good” to come for years.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It will take about two years to really rebuild this marriage. But, if she wants to try you should join here. I would also suggest that your reluctance to do something nice for her was to some degree a result of her continuing the A. You felt this reluctance because you didn't feel her full love for you. I am guessing that you knew that all was not right in your marriage even after d-day #1. Hence your reluctance.

I think that this time if she is really trying you will see, feel, and notice the difference in her actions and her behavior toward you. I suspect you actually will have an easier time showing her your love, because she will be showing you her's. Yup, the old GIVER/TAKER thing again, but don't worry you are human, and it does swing.

What you want is for your G&T to be balanced and hers to be as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Part of me sees so much more hope by walking away. There’s no doubt that I feel it would be the easier path to take. She is showing me all the things she’ll do this time to fix things and make our marriage better than ever. I believe that right at this moment, she is completely focused and honest about what she’ll do. Unfortunately, those commitments require work and I feel she’ll gradually lose interest as time goes by. Other life demands will begin to take priority over our marriage and things will go back to being the same. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! the other demands taking priority. I think here is where the POJA comes into play. Other things CAN NOT take a higher priority, even children are of a lower priority. Why? Because if the are the highest and the marriage dies, the kids are actually hurt worse than if they were the second priority and both you and your W are there to take care of them. Life is a team sport.

And if she doesn't do the work, or sort of stops, then you do leave. That is where the detachment does come in. You can give her another chance, you can work on the marriage, AND you can leave. You can keep all of these options open. If she does the work, you will find that option three will be less attractive.

BA, your marriage will never be like it was. You will now always be ready to leave, but because you now know that she can effectively leave, and you can leave, it means that perhaps both of you will take better care of the marriage, via honest and open communications, sharing your feelings, and working through the rough spots together.

I don't know if I have made you more confused or helped clear things, but that is my best advice at this time.

God Bless,

JL

Frank57,

I agree that the “high” you get from a new relationship plays a powerful role in what my W did the last two years, but I refuse to treat it like it is some inescapable power that she could not resist. In this day and age, it is too easy to transfer blame to something/someone else. She may have been in a fog, but she knew what was going on the whole time. I refuse to believe she was incapable of making conscious decisions because of these strong emotions. If humans couldn’t resist feelings like that, our society would be in chaos.

You’re right --she is not an evil person. She is a good person that continued to make very bad decisions about her life & marriage for two years.

I do tell her and show her that I still love her and care for her, but I don’t want to jump back into a relationship until she fully comprehends the damage that has been done and what it is going to take to recover. I want to show her that there’s still hope, but at the same time make sure she knows that there’s no easy fix to the problem this time.

TMCM,

I’m working hard to stay emotionally detached from her, but it’s not easy at times. I don’t want to be branded as cold or distant because I don’t respond the same way to her. If I’m emotionally detached, then I can’t really show much emotion on way or another. I could see how she’d interpret that as not caring --don’t you?

It would be tough to stay emotionally detached for an entire year. I know you can consider it “show me more”, but it could also be interpreted as “I don’t care right now”. Somewhere I have to show more hope as she keeps her promises and things improve, don’t I?

TMCM/Silverthorn,

I like the idea of a timeframe, but I think a year is a little long. I’d like to give it 3 months to see if she keeps to her promises. Why wait a whole year if, after 3 months, nothings changed. Do you agree?

Silverthorn,

Yes, it sounds like we are going through the same situation. Since the first time I found out about her A, I’d ask what I could do better and she’d tell me she didn’t know. I explained that I couldn’t make our marriage better unless she told me what I could do better as a husband. I think she expects me to know already, but that couldn’t be further from the truth.

I actually read a book called “What Women Want” to try to get a better idea of how to meet her needs. They had some good suggestions, but most were little ways to improve a relationship (and I did try many of them). Most were common sense (IMO).

I do have some hope for the future, but I KNOW I’d be happiest starting out brand new. I know I can’t just pick up and start over completely, but I want new routines, new surroundings. Something that won’t remind me of what happened, but instead a place for new memories.

Selling the house seems like it would be an easy option, but we’ve got so much invested into it (financially, historically) that it would be a very tough decision to make. I don’t think we’d get a house even close to it for the money. We’d basically be downgrading without any financial benefits. That’s a tough reality.

If money and comfort didn’t matter, I’d sell it in a heartbeat. Just living away from home part of the time brings so much peace to me. When I’m away, I feel so much promise and excitement about my future. It feels just like it did when we were first married and first living in our house. On the other hand, when I’m home I feel overwhelmed and stressed.

TMCM,

The daily journal is a great idea. At this point, all the good & bad days seem to run together. I can’t even remember the topics of our disagreements, etc. a few hours after we have them.

Just Learning,

I have told my wife what I want out of our marriage and what I want out of my life (many times). I tell her I want to start brand new –even if it means selling our house, etc. I want to feel like things are different in my life. I want to be excited about a new chapter instead of trying to make sense about what has happened to the old one.

I also tell her about how hopeless everything seems at times --how I feel so resentful and betrayed that I don’t even want to give it another chance at times. I think she’s clear on my feelings at this point. I can’t believe that telling her all that isn’t a LB. I don’t say it in anger. I usually tell her calmly, but hearing that from your husband has got to be a LB no matter how it is presented. Don’t you agree?

Threatening to walk if I’m not happy would be perceived as a threat in her mind. At this point, she’d probably flip out if I left. She feels that ending the A is enough to keep me around. She wants to focus on the future and keeps telling me that “time will tell”, but I tell her that so much damage has been done. I’m having a problem with the future because I’m still dealing with what already happened. Simply ending the A is not enough to fully convince me that we can save our marriage at this point (and I’m not convinced that happened either). None the less, I still do have some hope….

Yes, she need to understand that our time apart is not a punishment (like she thinks), but time for me to heal. I tried to explain that moving home right now would result in more damage because of my anger and resentment, but I still don’t think she understands.

You are exactly right about the priorities. I know that she can’t escape the fact that she has children, a job, and a house to take care of, but I feel like it is such a crutch sometimes. I KNOW she can make time for our marriage if she wants to. She just took a nap for a few hours, but is now telling me all the things she has to do tonight. I’m really getting sick of hearing about how much she has going on in her life. I have a lot going on, too. I do my best to help her with the kids, house, etc. despite what I’m going through. I know this sounds selfish, but I honestly believe it’s just another way of avoiding the “work” associated with fixing our marriage.

By the way, I have some new information for those of you who have been following my story...

My wife’s Dad pressured her to tell the Grandparents what was going on. If you recall, they are the fairly strict Catholic Grandparents who live across the street from us. We’ve been very close to them over the course of our marriage. They were getting very upset about the situation and started drawing their own conclusions (i.e. that I was beating her).

She basically told them that she had a “friendship” with the OM that I asked her to end many times. She admitted she continued the “friendship” after she promised to stop and now sees the errors of her ways. She tells them that she knows she’s destroyed my trust, but we are “working through it”. She also admitted that the OM pushed her down and how she filed a police report against him. So, she basically told him everything except admitting to a full-scale affair. They seemed to be okay with this explanation and now understood why I was so upset.

At this point, I think that’s enough. I didn’t ever want them to hate her, but at the same time didn’t want them thinking badly of me because they didn’t know the details. I think her having to admit what happened to her family will only steer her away from doing this again. I hope.

Dear BA
My point was not to suggest that she was not responsible for her actions. She had ample time to reflect on them during two years.
My point was for you to understand her present paralysis regarding doing the right actions to restor your thrust in her.
Discus this with her. Let her read what i wrote and ask for her thoughts on it.

My parayers go to both of you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I also tell her about how hopeless everything seems at times --how I feel so resentful and betrayed that I don’t even want to give it another chance at times. I think she’s clear on my feelings at this point. I can’t believe that telling her all that isn’t a LB. I don’t say it in anger. I usually tell her calmly, but hearing that from your husband has got to be a LB no matter how it is presented. Don’t you agree?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you read the Harley book 'Love Busters'? I ask because it seems that a lot of folks get confused with what a love buster is. Here are the basic types of love busters:

1. Angry Outbursts - Who wants to live with a time bomb?

2. Selfish Demands - Who wants to live with a dictatotr?

3. Dishonesty - Who wants to live with a liar?

4. Independent Behavior - Who wants to live with a selfish jerk?

5. Disrespectful Judgements - Who wants to live with a critic?

6. Annoying Habits - Who wants to live with a leaky faucet?

Expressing your feelings without angry outbursts, selfish demands or disrespectful judgements is NOT a love bust, but being dishonest with her about your feelings IS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Threatening to walk if I’m not happy would be perceived as a threat in her mind. At this point, she’d probably flip out if I left. She feels that ending the A is enough to keep me around. She wants to focus on the future and keeps telling me that “time will tell”, but I tell her that so much damage has been done. I’m having a problem with the future because I’m still dealing with what already happened. Simply ending the A is not enough to fully convince me that we can save our marriage at this point (and I’m not convinced that happened either). None the less, I still do have some hope…."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are absolutely correct that simply ending the A is not enough to save the marriage. To save the marriage, BOTH of you must go through marital and personal recoveries, otherwise it's just going back to the way things were before her A, and setting yourselves up for another repeat A on her part or a so called 'revenge' A on yours. You KNOW this to be true because if she had at least followed the Rule of Honesty, then her A would not have reignited.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, she need to understand that our time apart is not a punishment (like she thinks), but time for me to heal. I tried to explain that moving home right now would result in more damage because of my anger and resentment, but I still don’t think she understands.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Separation is always risky, and Dr Harley states this himself in What Are Plan A and Plan B? Maybe she is afraid that you may get to like it too much that you may decide to make it a permanent situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are exactly right about the priorities. I know that she can’t escape the fact that she has children, a job, and a house to take care of, but I feel like it is such a crutch sometimes. I KNOW she can make time for our marriage if she wants to. She just took a nap for a few hours, but is now telling me all the things she has to do tonight. I’m really getting sick of hearing about how much she has going on in her life. I have a lot going on, too. I do my best to help her with the kids, house, etc. despite what I’m going through. I know this sounds selfish, but I honestly believe it’s just another way of avoiding the “work” associated with fixing our marriage."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This paragraph says it all as far as why you need to emotionally detach from her. Her unwillingness to work on rebuilding the marriage is not a good sign of things to come. The sooner you accept this, the better you are to do what is necessary to protect you and your children. Furthermore, your W needs to know that there can be NO back to 'normal' until she does her share of the work to rebuild the M. So many BS, like yourself, fail to enforce the issue of a marital recovery plan that they let the WS have his/her way and later regret having done so. Enforcing does not mean you demand it from her, but that you simply refuse to continue in a marriage where you know that your W is not serious about resolving the issues that caused her A.

I recommend that you read Mortarman's thread in the Infidelity General Questions II forum. He and his FWW are having some problems in recovery and you will see what I mean when I say that recovery is not a cakewalk. I especially liked his last post in which he talks about his W's consultation with Steve Harley, and how Steve asked his W what was her plan for returning to the marriage and she responded that she didn't have any. This is consistent about what Steve's father (Dr Willard Harley) says about why not having and implementing a marital recovery plan is the reason why many marriages fail to survive infidelity. So if you want to do your part in saving your marriage, do not let your W manipulate you into beleiving that there is no need for a marital recovery plan.

And as far as not having time to work on the marriage, it may do you well to calmly and respectfully point out to her that despite all of her duties and responsibilities, she did make time to have an affair, didn't she?

<small>[ September 03, 2003, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

TMCM,

Well, I just returned from IC and told our therapist about me posting on this board and the feedback I’ve received. She really liked the idea and supported some of the recommendations --especially Emotional Detachment.

She also came to the same conclusion that her behavior and actions are very consistent with someone that was sexually abused when younger. It’s interesting that she’s said this before and you’ve also pointed out other related examples on this board. I’ve asked her about this (when things were calm & safe) and she says that nothing like that ever happened. She admitted that she doesn’t remember a lot of details about her childhood (which is a sign of abuse), but she feels she’d remember something like that. Our therapist feels that there is something deeper than just the A, but she’s got so many walls up she can’t quite figure it out.

Our therapist also recommended that I continue to take time for me to heal. She doesn’t want me to do anything drastic or even start fixing the relationship. She wants me to get individual stabilization before we start talking about the relationship (which I agree).

My wife is now accusing me of not caring about her. She tells me that she is doing everything I’ve asked, but it’s just not enough in my mind. I told her that I see when she is doing those positive things, but she thinks I should be moving home and putting back on my ring because of them. I told her that all I can do is stay put and acknowledge the small steps she is taking. I can’t go running back because she’s been able to commit to some of the things she’s promised for a few weeks. I don’ think she understands and perceives my emotional detachment and need for space apart as a sign that I don’t care anymore. She’s now very upset and told me not to bother coming over tonight to see the kids. She’ll be doing something else with them…

I truly understand the LB’s and how they can cause more damage. That’s why I want time apart, so I can avoid the angry outbursts, etc. If I have some time to calm down, I’m a lot less likely to say those things. I can talk to her calmly and maturely if I just have the space to defuse. She just doesn’t understand and still sees our time apart as punishment and “not caring”.

So far, I feel like I’ve developed most of our plan to recovery. To her credit, she has done some things on her own, but is it unreasonable to expect more? I don’t want to be too demanding, but I feel that she continues to do the bare minimum to show me she’s serious. Maybe I’m just too demanding right now…?

She is afraid that I like the separation too much. She continues to accuse me of “picking up other women” because I won’t wear my wedding ring. Most of the time, I don’t go out anywhere or, if I do, I go out by myself. For example, last night I went for a long bike ride, came back and watched TV, and then went to bed. Not really the life of someone looking to “pick up” someone else.

The priority thing really bothers me. I feel like she is being forced to do the little things she is doing (and she is really doing them to her credit). I do believe that she wants the marriage to work, but maybe just doesn’t know how to work at it. I think I made it too easy on her last time, so that’s what she’s hoping for this time around.

I’ve told her about the time it took to continue the A and she tries to play it down. I hear: “Well, I really didn’t talk to him every day and we only saw each other once in a while this time around.”.
Then she’ll rant and rave about how much she’s got to do tonight and how stressful it is for her that I’m not home to help.

BA I'm glad that your counselor approved of our advice to you, especially regarding the emotional attachment.

While your counselor told you not to try to fix your marriage, it would not be a bad idea if you bought the book 'Torn Asunder' by Dave Carder and gave it to your W to read. The more she learns about why affairs happen, and how it is possible to rebuild a marriage with BOTH spouses doing their fair share of the work, the better she'll be able to understand that she is not alone and that there is hope.

Remember not to get hung up on what she says but to focus on what she does.

hi BA
well i am happy that u got some grip on ur life. Just continue and one day u will get the ray of hope and things will get normal.
have u explained her about the love bank concept to her?
she thinks that making those things will add to ur love bank and u will come to her. but in ur case there is literally no love bank at all. as she has put negative love units last time or completely withdrawn any love u had for her. the second time the betrayal cuts deep and virtually destroyed the bank itself. u are just helping urself with the seperation to be sane and not to pick any girls that includes her also. explain them to her .
all the best.

if it does not kill u, it makes u stronger

she has to put a lot of hardwork

Here’s an update.

We both received individual calls last night from the sponsor couple for the Retrouvaille program we plan to attend starting tomorrow. They basically said that they call in advanced to answer any questions and put the participants at ease prior to showing up. They mentioned to both of us (in separate conversations) that if there’s a 3rd party still in the picture it needs to end before attending the program. Since the call was a chance to voice MY concerns, I expressed my concern that the 3rd party (OM) may not be out of the picture and, at this point in time, I’m still in shock over what has happened over the last two years. I told him that there are some significant trust issues involved and he simply asked me to go with an open mind (which I agreed to do).
I’m not trying to sabotage the efforts of the weekend before we even get started, but these were very REAL concerns that I have about my marriage right now. I went through what I thought was 10 months of marriage rebuilding only to find out the A never ended. I think it is completely in my right to have reservations that this particular program will fix our marriage. But I still plan to go and give it an honest chance.

Now, once my wife found out that I told him some of the details behind our problems she got very upset and accused me of trying to make her look bad in the eyes of everyone that I possibly could. She reminded me that it isn’t required to share our specific problems, but I then reminded her that they called to answer questions and put concerns at ease before we attended. I told her that these WERE still concerns that I have, but I agreed to attend with an open mind.

That wasn’t good enough so we began to argue. It was obvious that it was going nowhere, so I decided to leave rather than argue for the remainder of the night. That’s when she slapped me, told me that she hates me, and told me that she’s not responsible for the “[censored]” I’ve become. On the way home, I received many more calls telling me how I’m a creep (and other names I won’t mention here), but never received an apology for getting slapped.

I’m a man and I know that getting slapped by a woman shouldn’t be a big deal, but I recall that she complained about a similar situation with the OM. She was furious that when the OM pushed her down & dragged her across the patio, he never called to apologize. She said he was more concerned about her going to the police than apologizing for what he did. She felt that showed what kind of person he was. Now, how is this any different? As of right now (the morning after), I have received nothing but a barrage of calls telling me what a horrible person I am, threats for divorce, and demands that I come up to her IC appointment so our counselor can “set me straight”. I refuse to talk to her until I get a sincere apology because she has no right to slap me just because I don’t agree with her opinion and get upset because she keeps pushing it on me.

So, was I wrong to share my concerns with the Retrouvaille sponsor? I honestly didn’t get into the details –I only told him enough to express concern…

Oh Boy,

Of course you were not wrong to share your concerns with the sponsor. The sponsor asks to know of your concerns. Again it seems like it is all about her.
The fact that she feels free to slap you because you disagree with her indicates again she has very little respect for you and is very immature.
You are seeing her as she is. Too Much Coffee said in an earlier post essentially that words are cheap and actions are the true indicator. Your wife talks a good game but her actions show otherwise. You are in a marriage where your wife continues to disrespect and humiliate you in many ways. She is narcissistic and self-serving. For two years she made deliberate choices to sabotage your marriage and relationship and has lost all credibility in your eyes.
Maybe I am cynical but watch out. I think there may be hidden agenda behind her slapping you. It may be that she wishes to have you respond in kind so she can use it against you later in court.
Your wife sounds very unstable, mean and vindicative. Your messages indicate that you are getting stronger and she is getting weaker and more mean-spirited. You need to protect yourself and your children. She is showing her true self now and I think you know it. This is your future if this is what you want. I wish you luck.

No you were not wrong and IF her behavior continues to deteriorate and becomes more violent then I would suggest that you consider getting a restraining order against her. When a woman/man resorts to hitting the other spouse, the chances of her/him using other forms of violence are greatly increased. Just because she is a woman does not give her the right to physically attack you and if you continue to tolerate this kind of behavior from her, the worse it's going to get. I'm sorry to say this but, but until your W shows thru her actions of seeking psychological counseling to resolve her personal demons, your marriage will continue to be on death row.