BryanP,

You have taken the words right out of my clumsy fingers.

Well said.....

Hi Olderandwiser,


”What concerns me more is the trading of underhand remarks to WW like "maybe you'll want to live with him in his trailer park when his wife has done with him". This to my mind shows that S**3 has not let go of her. This is the old hate and indifference thing. S**3 please don't stoop to her level.”

I’m afraid that was a loss of discipline of my part, although pathetically the LB really felt very good. Secondary purpose was also to demonstrate that she has lost a great deal of influence she once had with me. I never once claimed to be able to be detached 24/7….. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks….

PS. I consider D-Day to be the 9th, although I completely confirmed it about 4.5 weeks ago and had some evidence 6 weeks ago.

Cubed, if you have been reading the threads on this website you should be aware that those in affairs do not always keep their promises to end their affairs. The term "fog" is used to rationalize their continued affair. The BS is suppose to be very understanding and stand by while the betrayer goes through the stages of emotionally and physically withdrawing from an lover which can take a period of months or years. At the end of this exhausting process during which time the BS is trying to fulfill the betrayer's ENs leads the betrayer (in theory) to see the light and start to work on being the faithful,loving spouse. Meanwhile the BS goes through his own process of regaining his self-esteem with the help of lots of antidepressants and therapy which can take a period of years to help him accept the humiliation of being betrayed. What the betrayed spouse usually learns in therapy is that he/she may have contributed to the betrayer having the affair but at the same time is told that there is no justification for the betraying spouse having committed adultery. In spite of this contradiction the BS is still held more responsible by being told that if he/she had done a proper job of fulfilling the spouse's needs there would have been no affair. In other words, the BS needs to take the main blame for making the betrayer take his/her clothes off and have sex. Of course,during the months and years that follow the BS learns to keep a eye on the former betrayer to make sure that there is no other affairs. What is omitted is a discussion about the character flaw that would enable a spouse to have an affair and commit adultery in the first place regardless of whether or not her ENs were fulfilled. For a betrayer to not be able to explain the reasons for committing adultery would suggest that this person has no discipline to live a life committed to one's marriage vows and high moral values and could again have an affair in the future.

SC:

Your intellecual diatribe is great party material.
But let's face the facts here. YOU were outflanked by your WW, as I was by mine.

It's smart to cover your bases.

But,the real question YOU need to answer is this : Do you want your marriageor not? Either way, you have a lot of soul searching to do.

You will have to go through the stages to determine that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by yosh:

Cubed, if you have been reading the threads on this website you should be aware that those in affairs do not always keep their promises to end their affairs. The term "fog" is used to rationalize their continued affair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WRONG! Explaining and rationalizing are two DIFFERENT things. People who fall in love whether it's through a normal relationship or an affair are not acting or thinking rationally, otherwise the vast majority of people would end their relationships when red flags would show up regarding their partner.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The BS is suppose to be very understanding and stand by while the betrayer goes through the stages of emotionally and physically withdrawing from an lover which can take a period of months or years. At the end of this exhausting process during which time the BS is trying to fulfill the betrayer's ENs leads the betrayer (in theory) to see the light and start to work on being the faithful,loving spouse. Meanwhile the BS goes through his own process of regaining his self-esteem with the help of lots of antidepressants and therapy which can take a period of years to help him accept the humiliation of being betrayed. What the betrayed spouse usually learns in therapy is that he/she may have contributed to the betrayer having the affair but at the same time is told that there is no justification for the betraying spouse having committed adultery.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If a loved one, like a son or daughter, got addicted to drugs, would you suggest that the parent simply abandon his/her loved one at the moment of discovery of the problem? Not if you truly loved him/her (Plan A). Of course if after several attempts of trying to help him/her s/he was still not acknowledging the problem, then tough love would be applied as a last resort (Plan B).

Even if the BS were to dump the WS upon discovery of the affair, the pain, humiliation, resentment would still be experienced by the BS and so would the need for counseling and/or therapy.

By following the MB methodology (Plan A/Plan B) the BS gets the best tools for either saving his/her marriage OR getting emotionally ready for divorce without being haunted with second thoughts. One way or the other, the BS ends up a lot better than if s/he had not followed the plans. Not to mention, the BS learns a lot about relationships in how to recognize a good potential partner and how to maintain a happy and healthy committed relationship which is something that is simply not gained by simply dumping the WS at the outset.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In spite of this contradiction the BS is still held more responsible by being told that if he/she had done a proper job of fulfilling the spouse's needs there would have been no affair. In other words, the BS needs to take the main blame for making the betrayer take his/her clothes off and have sex.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WRONG AGAIN! BOTH spouses are equally responsible for the state of the marriage but the WS(wayward spouse) is 100%, solely responsible for chosing to have an affair. A BS(betrayed spouse) may have contributed to the bad state of the marriage by not meeting some of the most important EN(emotional needs) of the WS but that DOES NOT make him/her responsible for the WS making the choices that lead to his/her affair. Explain to me how are these things contradictory?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course,during the months and years that follow the BS learns to keep a eye on the former betrayer to make sure that there is no other affairs.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what's wrong with the BS and the WS looking out for the traps the lead one to have an affair? Would you walk down streets at night without looking over your shoulder for any signs of danger? Also the BS of today can become the WS of tomorrow, as it has in so many marriages affected by an affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is omitted is a discussion about the character flaw that would enable a spouse to have an affair and commit adultery in the first place regardless of whether or not her ENs were fulfilled.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The so-called character flaw is deceptive because it leads many people to beleive that certain groups (religious people, military people, etc) are immune from having affairs when reality has shown otherwise.

Next time get your facts straight before you misinform someone else.

SC

I like you have a wife that has had an affair with a co-worker, a VP at her work. I share the exact same thoughts that you do. I too travel, and I too could not believe that my wife would engage in the behavior I uncovered. When I confronted my wife, she immediately lied and told me the conversation I taped was just phone sex and none of the sex talk had ever happened. She claimed that the person was an old boyfriend and that he had moved to town. What my wife did not realize was that I am successful in business because I am persistent and know how to uncover information. I, like you, dug for info and uncovered the truth. Now, my wife lives in constant fear of losing her job, the OM, who I have yet to contact lives in the same fear.

I understand your feelings, and I cant argue with your logic. All I would ask you to do is to see a counselor and make sure divorce is the right action to take AT THIS TIME. Understand that I am getting divorced, but I took 3 months to make the decision, and I am happier for it. I like you was angry, and closing my emotions and feelings to my wife. The reason I would ask you to seek counseling for yourself before you make you decisions are as follows.

1. In business you never make a decision based on emotion, you make it based on fact. At this moment, you are acting out of anger, a very powerful emotion, not good business.

2. You will need to understand the potential impact on your children and how to mitigate the impact if you choose divorce.

3. YOU NEED TIME TO HEAL. You are broken, you have been kicked and beaten.

4. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. You need to find out who your wife really is. Remember, your wife will have custody rights, figure out who she is first, then make your divorce decision.

I am not telling you not to get a Divorce, although many on this site will. It is your decision. I, like you get rewarded in business for taking action. Rarely do I get rewarded for not taking action. This is one situation that you need to take non-action. Slow down, understand all apsects of your potential decision, and then make a final determination.

SC

As background, I run a large North American sales operation for a large global business.

S**3 hi,

I'd put your Dday more precisely at the date your gumshoe gave you the photographic evidence.

Your case differs from the majority posted here in that you got hard evidence and destabilised the OM and the "whatever you call it" before any confrontation. Some of the posters here don't seem to be taking on board how this changes the gameplay.

The atmosphere at home must be pretty hard at the moment. I hope you can avoid shouting matches completely as this will do no good to anybody. Your quarantine solution sounds the best with perhaps limited and scheduled time to debate urgent items.

Does WW think she gets the custody?

Does she know how little she will get out of a divorce settlement?

Does she know how long before divorce is final?

If she is going to convince you can change and has changed she doesn't have long. I think you should show the bottom of the pit and get her to face up to what she has done otherwise even if she can demonstrate remorse and change you will have gone.

FWIW my observations say that about 20% of men can change themselves for the better but only about 5% of women. Changing for the worst is 100/50 imho.

Folks -

Is anyone else starting to get bothered by the tone of this thread? It's bad enough that posters are bashing each other back and forth, but now we are starting to critisize what has been posted on other threads.

Silence - I think your critisism of a post made by a FWW was out of line. When people come here to confess to bad behavior, they are allowing themselves to be vulnerable to all sorts of mud slinging. The purpose of these boards is to try to help people lead better lives, not beat them over the heads for past mistakes. These people are hurting, and they don't need any additional hurt. Your off topic swipe at her struck me as something a Troll would post. (You know, although it would make many of us here feel foolish, I truely hope you ARE a Troll, and that you aren't really going thru these events, and being consumed with pain and anger. No one deserves to suffer.)

Like it or not, we're all fragile creatures easily hurt by the actions AND WORDS of others. Be kind!

TMCM; I think what the character flaw argument obscures is that EVERYONE has character flaws (unless yosh is some exception). Whether or not they lead to affairs is sometimes surprising, including tothe people who have them, even if they are aware of the flaw.

I assume yosh aimed this at me, among others: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What the betrayed spouse usually learns in therapy is that he/she may have contributed to the betrayer having the affair...the BS is...told that if he/she had done a proper job of fulfilling the spouse's needs there would have been no affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is one of the most common misinterpretations of what Harley says, because it is so close to what he does say, and it is easily confused. I look at it this way. Any crime requires motive, opportunity and a willingness to violate the law. As this applies to affairs, a bad marriage provides motive. Opportunities abound. Willingness to violate the law are the "character flaws" you refer to, and in fact character flaws can provide their own motives for people with good marriages. That is why I recommend Torn Asunder as well as Surviving an Affair. SAA mostly deals with the motive, though it does so far better and more comprehensively than TA. TA deals with the whole enchilada.

I was not meeting my wife's most important emotional needs before her affair. Did that cause her affair? No. She was not meeting my emotional needs either, but I had no affair, despite opportunities. If unmet emotional needs "caused" affairs, then I would have had one, too. Do I know that if I had been meeting her most important emotional needs, she wouldn't have had the affair? No, I don't know, because her "character flaws" ("self-inflicted spiritual wounds" would be a better description, but I can use "character flaws" for arguments sake)were the biggest issue, and I don't know how they would have influenced her if her motivation was lower. I do know that I would not have accepted a recovery that did not deal with those issues.

But, one of her "character flaws" prevented me from ever finding out what her most important emotional needs even were. Before the affair, she was not honest with me about what her needs were or how my behavior affected her. PART of that was my fault, in that I did not provide a perfect environment for her to do so - but I really wasn't that bad, and nobody can expect to be perfect. Her dishonesty was learned growing up. She has had to unlearn some things, as have I, including some of the same things, in order to have a good marriage. In OUR case, it was important for me to be better at providing a safe environment for her to talk about her feelings,a dn to learn to listen to her better. Harley's materials were of inestimable help in that process. I may be projecting, but I think SC's wife is in a similar situation. If she had been honest with him, he wouldn't be here not knowing why she had an affair. My wife has changed. His may or may not be capable of that, too. But it is WAY too early to tell.

The other thing is that NO ONE is without "character flaws", and how they influence someone is unpredictable, so SC is not likely to find someone who is immune to an affair. Ironically, the fact that my known character flaws made me vulnerable to an affair also made me more careful in how I interacted with women, which therefore helped protect me from having one. My wife was the opposite of that. Both of us thought that her "character flaws" made it virtually impossible for her to have an affair, which made her careless about her personal boundaries when dealing with male collegues who were friends, and thus left her more vulnerable. It also helped me overlook the signs that she was having one, because it seemed so improbable.

<small>[ October 14, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

Hi, Silence Cubed. I normally post in the "In Recovery" site, and rarely even read in this forum, but your thread caught my eye.

I am a formerly WS who had an emotional affair. I've spent the last year, since D-Day, doing everything in my power to restore my marriage and meet my husband's needs...as well as to atone for the terrible pain I caused him.

I've written about my experiences in detail; feel free to do a search on the "In Recovery" forum if you have time.

While I truly hurt for you because of the betrayal you've experienced, I can't help but be glad my own husband didn't handle the discovery as you have. It makes me even more grateful for the fact that he showed grace, mercy and a willingness to give our marriage another chance. How thankful I am that he showed love to me in this way! Our marriage is becoming better than it has ever been.

You've painted all WS's with a pretty broad brush. The truth is, there is no way to justify such a betrayal...but there are many ways to try to understand what led to it. The books that have been recommended to you are a good place to start.

I hope you'll find it in your heart to extend more grace and mercy to your own wife. People need such grace when they least deserve it. I'm willing to bet your wife is longing for it.

Best wishes.

Hi SC
U are really right at some points .

When the BS doing all the work, the WS comes out of the fog in stages . What are the BSes gonna get ?. A cindrella ? Nope. Just a battered S who can kill u without u knowing. Who will do selfish acts wchich BS will never understand .BS will never know with whom they are gonna live. Just a painful life in the future. U might have faied as a H in some departments (only in some and not in every depts. ) . U got all the ducks. Why dont u wait for 3 more months as fff said to shoot?. There is nothing wrong in that.
When u go for that, u actualy execute in a better manner without harming ur children. All the best. Whatever decision u take ...

Bryanp:

"It is sad that you are so judgmental of posts that you disagree with. I employ a tough love approach."

And, in this case, so did I. Only I'm tough on Scubed, you're tough on his WW, who we only know 2nd hand, through Scubed's descriptions.

"You have a right to your opinion and views and I believe I should have the same right."

So do I. You have the same right. Do you believe that you are somehow helping Mrs Scubed by being tough on her 2 her H?

"It sounds like you protest too much."

I do a lot of things "2 much." Protest? Possibly.

"It is interesting that my approach of no consequences to their actions equals no motivation to change approach seems to bother you so much."

Hm... I don't believe I have ever advocated that the WS shouldn't face the consequences of their actions. I certainly said nothing of the sort here. But as for change. The BS can only change themselves. We can't FORCE others 2 change. Trying 2 do so will only lead 2 further frustrations. Marriage Builders methods are all about helping BSs make the home environment "attractive" and "safe" 2 the WS so that they will CHOOSE 2 end their A on their own and confide in their S when they're in trouble. At the same time, MB methods are about NOT being a doormat in the process - a subtle complexity that many BSs miss, at one time or another. I certainly have more than once in the past. Villifying the WS for their choice 2 have an A may be "justifyable," but it doesn't help repair the broken M. Browbeating a WS back 2 the M won't result in a lasting, fulfilling M. The BS very definitely can be either "right OR married," but probably not both while trying 2 recover from an A.

"Your argument that anytime a spouse cheats it is because the other spouse has caused directly or indirectly or is at fault in some degree or another."

My "argument" is not unlike the "party line": The WS is solely responsible for the choice 2 have an A. The WS and the BS share responsibility for the condition of their M prior 2 and after the A. I suppose there are all kinds of "character flaws" that could further explain the WS' choice 2 have the A, like sex addiction for example. Scubed's W sounds typical of a WS that's hooked up with an old flame and let it get out of control. Is that a character flaw? Perhaps. But we don't know that much about Scubed's W in this regard. Scubed, and you, have not given her the benefit of the doubt thus far, of which there is plenty.

"Clearly this makes you feel good in some way about your situation."

Good for you in drawing this conclusion, because it is by no means clear 2 me that this is the case.

"I do not believe this is always the case. I believe that some people have a character flaw and or a broken moral compass."

Like I said above, I think there are cases where I might agree with you. I don't see anything in Scubed's description of his WW's behavior 2 suggest this, however. Not yet.

"It sounds like you are able to excuse every objectable behavior because they must be a reason behind it caused by the betrayed spouse."

I will accept that it may sound like that 2 you. It's not the case, however. "Objectionable behavior" is the choice made by the one behaving, not the betrayed's responsibility in any way. Again, this is not the same thing as taking responsibility for the condition of the M prior 2 the A. That's a separate issue.

"Taking this to its logical conclusion then every criminal has a reason to be a criminal because sometime in their live somebody mistreated them and they are only reacting to it."

Take it wherever you wish. I've never said this.

"I am sorry you had a spouse that cheated on you but to say every betrayed spouse was the cause in some way of the cheating spouse's actions is ridiculous."

I'm sorry you had a spouse the cheated on you, 2. And you're right , it is ridiculous 2 suggest that every BS was the cause of the WS' actions, and I've never said that.

"Clearly this belief comforts you in your own situation but I certainly do not believe that it can apply to everyone in every situation."

"Clearly" nothing of the sort. Clearly, you persist in misunderstanding me.

"It is sad that you have this need to attack individual posters who do not agree with your position and that you have this constant need to defend your positions. I think it says a lot more about your problems than the posters you are trying to help. "

Indeed. Shall we revisit some of your "tough love" posts 2 me and others in the past? Like many others on this thread, I am only trying 2 wake Scubed up 2 the negative, non-productive things he will achieve by following this vengeful plan. If that's "attacking" him, then by all means report my posts 2 the moderators. I will delete them if the board deems them "attacking."

best regards, whether you realize it or not.
-2long

SC, I am curious, why have you not responded to my posts? I have had a similar experience in the past year with two other posters with whom I strongly dis-agreed, and I am curious as to why, when you have responded to other posters who have both agreed and dis-agreed with you.

Another thing that is conveniently overlooked is that most WS's (with the exception of philanderers who indulge in ONS's) do not start with the intention of having an affair. The affair usually begins as a friendship that starts becoming more and more intimate (the sharing of the WS's deepest thoughts and feelings) over TIME until one day the once innocent relationship turns into an affair. The WS then tries to justify the affair by making him/herself beleive (or more likely self deceives him/herself, i.e FOG) that the OP is his/her true love and the love that was once given to the BS was nothing more than deep affection. To do otherwise would be accepting the terrible truth that s/he has committed THE most despicable, selfish, and thoughtless act imaginable to his/her spouse, and for the majority of WS's, this is something totally unbearable to contemplate. Does this justify an affair? NO, NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING justifies having an affair but if the BS CHOSES to attempt to save the marriage then s/he needs to know what s/he is up against and use the best tools (MB's Plan A/Plan B) to try to achieve the objective. Is it fair? Hell no but then again who said life is fair? But isn't it better for the BS to come out an overall winner no matter what happens to his/her marriage?

Reading all you've written it seems to me that the thing you can't get over is understanding WHY your W had the A. This has led you to think that she is a flawed character and continuing the relationship is impossible. May I suggest an explanation?

Imagine, and I'm guessing here. You are away a lot. She sees former boyfriend and they meet up to catch up on old times. Innocent enough. But then they meet again. As a general rule women need conversation more than men. Feelings are rekindled. That's where they should have stopped but here we see something that is very common. Lovers spend mainly "quality time" together whereas the married have to do chores, look after children and the home and lots of other mundane stuff. I'm sure that's why so many WS's think they've found a soul mate - the relationship is artificial. When they live together full time 97% break up.

No doubt you weren't fully meeting each other's needs and this created the conditions for the A, but it can't justify it. But I sense from what you've written that you already agree with that and what you're looking for is an explanation.

Few people decide to have an A, they fall into it.

You are obviously intelligent and resourceful and I believe you could implement the strategies advocated on this site if you chose. Impressive that your WW immediately terminated the A but experience elsewhere on this site is that WS's find it hard to cut off all contact and I would be wary about that.

Can I ask that we all stop attacking each other and focus on the issues. Some posters are making withdrawals from their love accounts with each other! There may be only one person with whom you have a big enough credit balance to cross the threshold for romantic love but we can still maintain positive balances with as many others as possible. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />