<strong>I was once the WS. I know what it's like. I know where her mind is. It's not pretty. It's not fun. And it hurts like hell. But I wish every day of my life that my exH had had someone like me to guide him through this. </strong>

That caught me by surprise. Have you ever posted your story here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mike C2:
<strong> <strong>I was once the WS. I know what it's like. I know where her mind is. It's not pretty. It's not fun. And it hurts like hell. But I wish every day of my life that my exH had had someone like me to guide him through this. </strong>

That caught me by surprise. Have you ever posted your story here? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uhhhhhh.... remember the infamous P thread here at JFO? The record setting thread with just a little more than 4000 posts? It was there. I also posted a plea to all who considered ending their marriage, under a different screen name, talking a little about my past and my regrets.

I can tell you anything you want to know about my past and my affair. I won't talk about my current H here, it violates POJA and did bad things to our marriage. One of the lessons I had to learn the hard way, kicking and screaming the whole time.

Remind me tomorrow and I'll give you the ugly rundown. It should make for an entertaining diversion to hear that in spite of looking like I'm 12 and being blessed with monumental arrogance, I really am human.

C

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cerri:
<strong> Uhhhhhh.... remember the infamous P thread here at JFO? The record setting thread with just a little more than 4000 posts? It was there.
C </strong>

P thread? I'm trying to remember....it all gets smooshed together after awhile...

Was that the one with the guy whose WW had an affair with their sailing buddy?

Mike.....I think the P thread was the one started by Persistant that cerri camped out on for a very long while here on MB.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> Mike.....I think the P thread was the one started by Persistant that cerri camped out on for a very long while here on MB. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right....the sailor guy. I started talking to Persistant over on EN and then he came over here...has he posted lately? Last I heard it was an uneasy recovery...

<sigh> ok do you want the long version or the short version? Tell ya what.... I'll give you the short version and it will be far longer than the above average attention span anyway. Apparently, I tend to ramble....or so I've been told. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I was married at 19, pregnant. We knew each other since I was 12, his sister was my best friend since jr. high.

XH was a big time workaholic. When we got married he had one full time and one part time job. He was never home. D (B) was born 4 months later and she was a handful. She crawled before she was 4 months old, had temper tantrums hourly and was an all around awful child. She knows this, we laugh about it now. My best friend was killed in a car accident when she was 6 months old. I was without anyone to talk to for a long time.

S (B2) was born 18 months later. He is the exact opposite. Didn't walk until he was past 1 1/2. Quiet gentle sweet.

Luke, my son who died was born 15 months after B2. I didn't want to be pregnant and I didn't want to have a baby. You should be careful what you ask for, it might happen.

Fourth child (T) was born 13 months after that. (That’s four in just under four years, if you don’t want to do the math)

Through all this XH worked 60+ hours a week in the early years and was up to 80+ by the time #4 was born .... 1985.

We started our printing business before we were married but by this time we were really ramping up. Our one major account printed with us on Saturday nights. Which meant they showed up at 4:30pm and we worked until 1am or later on Sundays. Nights were spent at the shop working on equipment and odd jobs. He still was working 45+ at his full time job.

We started adding schools and colleges to our clientele and he went to "part time" at his first job... only 30some hours and more than 50 at our business.

I did all the books, and until 1993 worked production as well. I have a knack with money management. I can stretch it and grow it very well. The business did well.

In 1989 youngest son was 4, I had FINALLY lost all the baby weight and I was going to school part time. (I had up to 5 pt jobs here and there too) I wanted to get a degree in biology and go on to be an ER doc. XH refused to support me financially or domestically in my plans and so I quit. He insisted that I put my efforts into the business, HIS dream, and that this was our future. That it would support us when we retired.

About this time he started talking about how he wanted a baby. I was devastated and angry. All those years of babies when he never took an interest and now he wanted to start again. Well, I got pregnant that fall and miscarried in Sept or Oct. It was horrible. I got pregnant with M in March of 90, and he was born Dec. that year.

M and the younger ones were born at home. XH wasn't there for most of my labor, he was working on a new customer's publication.

I took a year off of production and stayed at home doing the business end of things. The business grew phenomonally during that time.

Then N1 (that makes 6, 5 living) was born in Jan of 93, they are almost exactly 2 years apart. I went back to work pretty quickly after that, still doing production and business management.

XH did NOTHING around the house. No, I mean nothing. I mowed, I painted, I called the plumber, I called the electrician, I decorated, I took the vehicles for maintenance. When I would go to aerobics (which I taught for a while) I would come home to 3 kids without baths, toys all over, and dinner dishes and food still on the table.

I hired a housekeeper/nanny. PT at first and then FT later. She did more in the first week I had her than XH did in all the years we were together. I decided after the first day that if I had to choose between XH and the nanny, he went. Can you see the love bank balances here? Interesting to look back.

In 93 I started recovering memories of being sexually abused as a child. It hit me pretty hard. I didn't want to be touched. I spent from March of 90 until sometime in 94 being pregnant and/or nursing and then started working on this too. All I wanted was for my body to be mine for a change. XH was NOT supportive and pretty much whined and punished me for not wanting sex. And btw, birth control not an option for a good catholic family.

I got pregnant with N2 in Jan of 94. In my opinion it was a rape. I woke up from a nightmare, not knowing how old I was or what was happening. I tried to say no, but he wouldn't listen. It was horrible.

On my 33rd birthday, 6 weeks after N2 was born, I got my tubes tied. I didn't tell XH. The nanny drove me to the hospital and was sworn to secrecy.

By the fall of 94 or the spring of 95 I was pretty much done with the marriage. Over the years I had made friends and built a life. I was involved in lots of activities. We had lots of mutual friends that we did a lot with, but we weren't really a couple. Because of his work schedule I went to a lot of gatherings alone.

And yes, during all those years I complained. I asked for change. I said I was miserable.

OM was XH’s bf all through hs and later. He was the best man at our wedding. We had always been good friends. Like me, conv, is #1 on his EN list. (I know this now!!!) For years we talked about anything and everything. In the spring of 96 we began talking about our marriages for the first time. One thing led to another and the baby steps down the wrong path started to happen.

Interesting for me now that the boundaries were not breached until we started talking about being unhappy in our marriages. We had literally been nothing more than friends for close to 20 years and would often meet for lunch when I was in town. There had always been that feeling of taboo about discussing my marriage and I knew I’d crossed a line at the time, but I didn’t understand then what I do now about protecting a marriage. Part of why I am so adamant that people not come here and bash their spouse. The danger is very similar.

It lasted from June til Oct. of that year. On and off after the middle of August. XH knew right away, it's pretty obvious to others even though when you're in it you think it's not.

OM ended it when his conscience got to him. I tried every trick in the book to keep him..... it's why I'm so good at knowing the insides of affairs!!! I would have gone on for a lot longer with no remorse. I was very much the OW from hell. But when his wife pulled the butcher knife on him one morning, he got serious about not continuing. Go figure.

After it ended, the marriage was even more unbearable. It was like there was nothing good in my life. XH wasn't much on the heavy duty LBers, some passive disrespect and implied demands but rarely lost his temper. He never did meet needs. So the LBnk drain was slower, but still there.

His religious views were much different than mine as years passed, so any time I would try to talk about my beliefs and feelings he would snort and roll his eyes. One year at Christmas time he was so busy doing things so the customers’ publications would be on time and just right that he never got around to getting a gift for me. It's a pretty sad Christmas morning when you know there's something under the tree for everyone but you, and that your husband put many hours of time and trouble into other people's holiday needs.

To his credit, he did come to me early in 96 and talk about his fears of losing me and the family. He made plans for change and carried them out. I was too far into withdrawal, and was in the EA stages of the affair with OM. I didn't know that then, I do now. I said the same things every WS says… it’s too little too late, there’s no hope, the M is over, it’s not about OM it’s about you (it’s not… it really is about the A), get over it and move on, the kids will be fine, the D will be easy, we don’t need to fight… you name it. If a WS has ever said it in the fog, you can be sure I said it too.

I forced him to move out in May of 97. This was his biggest and worst mistake. If he had stayed or insisted that I left things would have been very different. Not his fault, he didn’t know. He’s said since then that he spent hours in the bookstores looking for help and suggestions but he couldn’t find any. And like every BS here says, terrified that he would make me angry and that doing so would make things worse. He based his decisions on instincts, emotions and the fear he felt from my intimidation tactics.

Don’t get me wrong. I love my husband and my marriage is good. But given a chance to do it over I would choose in a heartbeat to be with the father of my kids. Looking back I see very clearly the things he could have done if someone had been guiding him.

He exposed the A to OM’s wife…. at that’s what ended it. That was good. But he never told me how much I was hurting him. Not once. Now, I know if you are the BS you think that it’s obvious to your spouse. It’s not. That person is under the influence and can’t see beyond their obsession with the affair.

He exposed it to other people, but none of them…. literally none…. Confronted me. He should have had a formula for telling them and then asking for their help to encourage me to do the right thing. Even friends I’d had since high school would not stand up for the marriage, no one made me accountable.

As I said, he left the house, and looking back I really see that was the worst mistake he made. The A was over and I was in withdrawal. We could have rebuilt if we’d been together.

I don’t want to imply in any way that my very bad choice to have an affair was his fault. It wasn’t. Much of the deterioration in the marriage was, but the ethical choice for me would have been to choose a PlB scenario until he was willing to address it. Instead, I let myself get pulled into something that had long term and far reaching effects. I was thoughtless and cruel. And I didn’t have a clue at the time.

I’ve talked about this before. The movie Unfaithful with Diane Lane and Richard Gere portrays so accurately the fog and the baby steps that are inherent in an affair. Not for anyone whose spouse is having and A or who is new to recovery, very triggering. But for the observers of infidelity dynamics who can deal with the subject matter…. Incredible.

I see some of the damage to my kids. And that is the part that breaks my heart. But it’s more than that. Infidelity and more importantly divorce sends out ripples or destruction that move through families, friends and society at large. There is no such thing as a friendly, simple, painfree divorce. There is always pain.

Yow! What a story.

Seven kids? You must hear "Mom!" in your sleep!

How did you meet your second h? Does he have kids?

Do you ever think that your counsel may be slanted by what worked or what didn't work in your nown situation? That is something that bothers me sometimes on the baords....people don't play the percentages, they advise whatever happened to work for them, no matter how improbable, in some cases.

For instance, had the butcher knife been used rather than merely wielded, might you feel differently about notifying spouses?

I also got out a huge CHef's knife when I found out about my husband. I knew in the back of my mind that I wouldn't use it, but I was so livid..I wanted him to see my pain and anger. I also destroyed quite a bit of his property with a baseball bat. I ruined a very expesive laptop computer of his...and he felt compelled to whine about it repeatedly and I was thinking .you should be grateful it wasn't your head. Then he just hurt me worse when I found out he discussed my emotional rade and teary eyed episode the next day with OW at work. I felt betrayed all over again.

Yow! What a story.

Oh and that's only the surface. When I call myself eccentric it is with good reason, and I'm sure has much to do with a having had more life altering experiences than most. Some day you'll have to ask about the school I attended. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seven kids? You must hear "Mom!" in your sleep!

Sleep????? What makes you think I sleep???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

How did you meet your second h? Does he have kids?

Online. Even longer story. And yes he does. One D, 16 lives with her mom. And no, I am not the reason they divorced. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Do you ever think that your counsel may be slanted by what worked or what didn't work in your nown situation?

I know it might seem that way. But when I first started doing this I relied entirely on what Harley says in his books. And then later on the stories I would hear on the radio and the responses he would give callers.

As I hung out here more and more I began to see the similarities in how WS's, and BS's for that matter, reacted. It is so true that we all think our situation is unique, but Mike... when you get the volume of email I do daily you see very quicly that the story is the same. The reactions are the same. The script of the WS (and the BS too) are the same.

I can predict with eerie accuracy what will happen if the BS takes a particular action. I can sniff out an A in about three sentences and I don't think I've ever suspected wrongly. I'd like to be wrong, but I don't think it's ever happened. The signs, the symptoms, the behaviors and the reactions are univeral.

I get emails all the time from both WS's, BS's and just men and women who read my articles and the other stuff on my site who tell me that I nailed exactly how they felt. That I described what they were feeling and what they did in a way that made them see their own feelings more clearly.

The thing that I see about having been there (and I've been the BS too you know) is that I know how it feels on the inside. What you see on the surface of the WS is not reality. It's an image projected to cover the obsession and the fear and the being lost and not knowing how to get out of the mess they made. That's what is so good about that movie... it shows that. The anger a WS shows is based on all that, it has very little to with the marriage or the BS... as long as exposure is not about confidential information.

For example. When my XH exposed my A to friends and family he also told certain family members about the childhood sexual abuse. Family members that I was not in contact with at the time for that very reason. This was information that was privelaged to the marriage and to this day I am very unhappy that he did that. The anger about exposing the A is long gone. It only served as an intimidation tactic to keep him from threatening it more so.

Over the years I've talked with enough WS's and get the same story to believe that it's not just me.


That is something that bothers me sometimes on the baords....people don't play the percentages, they advise whatever happened to work for them, no matter how improbable, in some cases.

But I read the stats..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

For instance, had the butcher knife been used rather than merely wielded, might you feel differently about notifying spouses?

I dunno.... you're asking the former affair partner who now thinks the guy is sleazy and cruel... sooooooo if she had used it???? I'm not the one to ask, too close to the situation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I do know that the incidence of such an event happening is very low and that we can't let fear dictate what we do.

Just like my thoughts on seeking legal counsel. Not doing so might expose you to the risk of losing material goods or rights.... but doing so will most likely create a greater risk that attempts to save the marriage will fail.

The question is, what is the goal? If it's to end the A and save the marriage then put your eggs in that basket. You cannot cover all the bases, so choose the ones that give you the best help you can for the stated goal.

C

Cerri
Very interesting story very eye opening also.

I had a day (I call my breakday)
After H left me no butcher knife
I had one of his favorite guns.(has 176 of them)

Didn't use it on him tho

Can't really remember that day it is a haze
H remembers it and will never forget it.

Glad you have found happiness and peace of mind
Wish that for all of us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mike C2:
<strong> [QUOTE]Originally posted by cerri:
<strong> Uhhhhhh.... remember the infamous P thread here at JFO? The record setting thread with just a little more than 4000 posts? It was there.
C </strong>

P thread? I'm trying to remember....it all gets smooshed together after awhile...

Was that the one with the guy whose WW had an affair with their sailing buddy? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL! Yes and besides the sailor and the horse lover <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> , along the way there were the cowboy/computer guy HT, the sleuth Rocky (me), the quilter Marissa, and a cast of hundreds of other lurkers and infrequent posters. What a time in our lives that thread was.

HoFS

Cerri:

That is an incredible story. I'm sorry for all your pain and suffering, but glad to benefit from your experience.

I have a question that you briefly touched on. You mentioned that nobody you XH exposed the A to held you accountable. Nobody mentioned it to you or would encourage you to do the right thing. I'm having the same problem. I've told two of our nieghbors (very good family friends) and our families. With the exception of my mom (how was a WW and got divorced because of it) nobody is willing to talk to W about this. And W will not talk to my Mom. All of our friends and nieghbors say they don't want to get in the middle of this, it is our problem to work out. They fear that if they say anything that W will see it as hostility and end the friendship with them. Even her folks turn a blind eye to what she is doing. She is living at her folks and still spends the night with OM, I don't know how her folks allow that to happen. What can be done to convince people to stand up for what is right? I've tried telling people that being her friend doesn't mean you ignore her self detructive behavior and tell her what she wants to hear. If you are really her friend, you need to support her in doing the right thing. I'm fearful that by nobody saying anything that W will get the impression that her actions are ok, if not somebody will say something. It is really frusterating to see. Everyone just turns the other cheek and lets her do her thing. Nobody holds her accountable, except me but I don't count...I'm the bad guy.

What do you advise for this?

WWMB.... really there is nothing you can do to make people do the right thing. I think much depends on how you expose and how you present it. Which is why I talk at length about the words to use and the attitude that must be presented. And even if you do everything the "right" way, there is still now way to force someone else to get involved.

It amazes me how many people won't take a stand. Particularly parents and family members who claim to have any values and ethics and yet who won't say boo to a WS.

Now in my case, it wasn't just family and a few friends... as I've discovered over the years.... but really everyone we knew. And owning a business in a small town and being as involved in the community as I was, that's a lot of people!

I guess if that's the case then you need to just do the best you can an remember that what you see presented to you by your wife is not reality. It's a facade. I have NEVER talked to a WS who says that they were happy during the A or that they were glad they did what they did. Never.

The biggest thing for you right now is to get protected (see my other thread, the one I started, for some thoughts on PLB) and look at the changes you need to make in the future. LBers and being honest will be the challenges you face when the A is over.

C

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cerri:
<strong> But I read the stats..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong>

Where are there stats?

Sometimes I feel better hanging out on JFO because there was not an affair in my case, so when I try to give someone advise it is usually Harley "by the book". It bothers me when I see people on the baords advise "get a lawyer!" or "change the locks!" or "start dating yourself!" or "call the other wife!" because that happened to have some perceived or short term beneficial effect in their individual situation. And usually they follow it up by saying "that worked for me!".

These situations are so individualized. I know when you see hundreds they start to fall into buckets, Steve Harley told me that too. He said he just assumes an affair when there are a certain number of signs and moves on. But I am reminded of the cases like when a betrayed spouse gets a phone call, and then walks into the other room and shoots herself in the heart. That tends to make the stats and averages rather moot if you had a hand in advising that call.....

Stats and research and reports:

Well first of all I belong to the coalition for Smart Marriages. I'm sure you've seen some of the things I've posted here from that group over the past year. So if it's about marriage and it's in the news there will be something about it in the Smart Marriages newslist. Diane Sollee, the founder, is amazing. My H will come home and tell me that heard about something marriage related in the news.... and I will have already read it on the SM list.

Second I read authors whose research I respect, such as the late Shirley Glass.

Third, I research. I have some of my own surveys that ask about things I want to know. And I just get online and do the hard work of hunting and reading and checking credentials. In fact there's an interesting divorce stat someone told me last week that I want to verify.

It is true that rarely there is a case where someone does something really stupid when they get the news. But ya know, I lived in a community where over the course of several years more than one person committed suicide when they were diagnosed with a chronic illness. A wonderful woman who used to work for my X and I (still might work for him, now that I think about it) was raising her BIL's three kids because he shot himself and his wife when he was diagnosed with MS.

Does that mean that physicians should not tell patients what they see or suspect? Of course not. Bad news is difficult for all of us to hear. But we cannot do the things necessary to address what needs to be done unless we have information. The more information we have the better.

This hits home rather closely. One of our family is in the process of having some medical testing done. It was an odd little thing that no one thought anything about and only mentioned it to the doc in a totally non related visit. Turns out, it could be something pretty bad. If this person had a history of depression should the doc have said nothing for fear of what they might do when they get home? I don't think so.

We all have an obligation to behave ethically. And I see that as being honest about what we know. I also see it as doing so in a way that is utterly respectful and courteous. But I don't see that withholding information is a good thing.

C

Affair as Addiction : Confessions of a Former WS

Talking about all this today reminded me of something I was considering posting a couple of weeks ago.

The A that I had ended seven years ago this month. That was when the butcher knife incident occured.

Anyone who knows me at all or who has read even a smattering of what I write either here or for SYMC knows that it's impossible to get any more anti-infidelity than I am, or more pro-marriage. Obsessed pitbull are terms that might come to mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

And in the intervening years since the A ended and I've come out of the fog and since I got Harley <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I've come to several conclusions.

The first I mentioned earlier, that OM was a sleazy jerk. Second that he probably is an addict based on what I know now, and things he told me. That he treated his wife very badly over the years and now looking back I see the love busters that must have been horrifying for her to live with. The disrespect was almost constant. I also have heard through the grapevine that he probably went on to have other A's after me. He and his W have (the last I heard) five kids of their own... which multiplies the pain and devastation.

Ok, so you get the picture that there is no way I'm going down the infidelity road again and that I find the whole thing abhorent. And you get the idea that I don't think this guy is anything to write home about.

And yet, an affair is an addicition. Occassionally I need to drive past the city where they still live. And my thought every time is, "I could call OM. I still know his number."

It's not any different than someone who has been a non-smoker for years and years and who knows all the evils of smoking and perhaps even has physical ailments because of it. But who could be pulled right back into the addiction with ease.

Affairs are addictions. No contact is essential when it ends. As are precautions to make sure the same thing never happens again. I know that there are conditions under which I cannot be trusted. (That's true for all of us, I just know my hot points better than some <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )The addiction does not end just because the brain wises up.

Now rest assured that I won't ever make that call. Having been on the other side, I know how horrific it is, and I will never do that to ME again. Even if I was married to Hitler... which I'm not.... I would still not put myself through the destruction of an affair.

Alright.... that's way more than enough about me for one day.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

C

I'm very moved by your story.

Here's mine (well most of it - the full version would take too much to tell)...

Me 46
W 41
Married 19 years
S9, D7

Generally a happy marriage with normal ups and downs is what I used to think. About 6 years ago my W had a brief EA with the builder who was working on our house extension. When he made it clear he wanted to move to a PA my W consulted some of her friends. She was enjoying the attention and the feeling of being desirable but not sure she even fancied this man. As I understand it, but obviously I wasn’t there, only one out of three friends had a clear anti-affair stance! My W ended the EA by letter and then told me everything. She was surprised at how calmly I took it but the real reason I was able to be understanding was that I’d been similarly tempted myself. I had an offer of a PA with no preliminary EA and with hindsight the main reason I didn’t get involved was lack of opportunity – I was working away and the job finished quickly.

So I’m painting you a picture of an OK marriage. Both making LB remarks, not much but enough to make the relationship less than perfect. She nagging me about leaving all the domestic chores to her and leaving her with all the responsibility for the children (me helping but looking to her for the decisions). I knew she also wanted more conversation. Me complaining about the house being untidy and that she is hardly ever in the mood for sex.

There must be lots of marriages like that.

Then I found the MB site. I shared the concept of Love Banks and Love Units with her. From the above description you can see that we don’t need to fill in a questionnaire to know what needs aren’t being met. I effectively did a Plan A. The effect was almost immediate and completely astonishing. She has responded in kind and we are now making the effort to do what each other wants. As an illustration we have had sex five times in the last six days, which for us is a new record.

Cerri, I also posted this story on your general thread in JFO at page 53.

Of course all our input is coloured by our personal histories.

You will note that only one out of three of my wife's friends took a strong anti-affair stance and I will always be grateful to the one that did (she was very forthright).

Sometime before that a work colleague had an affair and came to me for advice. I myself was supportive to him but totally failed to take a clear anti-affair stance, which I now bitterly regret. He was a Catholic and eventually went back to his wife.

LS,
Thanks for that story. You are so right in that it is the story of so many marriages.

Does your wife know about the offer of the PA that you got? She needs to, ya know. And then it would be good if you addressed the conditions that led to either of those A's being able to begin... privacy, time away from home, dishonesty.... That along with making a commtiment to meeting needs and you'll be on track for a wonderful recovery. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C

Cerri I just knew that would be your response! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And yes I will tell my W about the offer of a PA. Our marriage has never been better and the EN's are being addressed.

On your general thread for MB issues in JFO there's a plea from Sio which star*fish and myself have tried to help with. star*fish is very good but a contribution from you would be appreciated. We both kind of promised that you'd comment which I won't do again 'cus you're very busy.

There's a book by Dr Jack Dominion called "Let's Make Love - The Meaning of Sexual Intercourse". He's a Catholic psychiatrist who's written a number of books about Christian marriage. Are you familiar with his work?

The book I've mentioned is a challenge to the church. He says that although in theory the Christian Church has moved from seeing sex as about procreation to seeing it as an expression of love, we haven't put any flesh on the bones of that idea and Catholics seem obsessed with contraception and abortion while Protestants are obsessed with homosexuality. In the middle chapters he attempts to explain what sex within marriage means. It's a brave attempt and I got a lot from it (I'm a Methodist Lay Preacher).

Seems to me that many posters to this board are Christians - is this because we're more committed to marriage?

My wife and I slept together before we were married but neither of us has ever been with anyone else. Again this is more to do with lack of opportunity than morality but we've always viewed it as a strength in our relationship. In a few years we will face questions from our children about this and it's going to be tough to answer without being hypocritical.