I see so many that do it, and fall of the wagon so often that they might as well not be in Plan B. Apparently, they do not see the harm in this. What I am, therefore, going to do is translate a conversation with a WS during Plan B into what the conversation is actually conveying.

What you think goes on:

WS: "I've really been missing you and think that I might be making a mistake."

BS: "Are you still with her/him?"

And the conversation goes on innocently enough. The BS doesn't LB, and thinks that he/she is making good logical points. "See? I'm calm. I've shown him/her what is going on. I've said what I needed to say. Maybe this time he/she will hear me. Maybe this time it will make a difference."

Oh, naive BS. You've just given the WS the reassurance he/she needs to continue straddling the fence. When the WS is willing to make real changes, you will SEE it. These conversations do not give the whole cake, these are a few crumbs tossed your way to see if you will still bite.

HERE IS WHAT IS ACTUALLY GOING ON:

WS: "I'm starting to feel uneasy that you are there for me. Please tell me that you are still on the hook whenever I want you and that I can continue my cake eating."

BS: "Yes, I love you and I'm here. Obviously, I'm still on the hook because I'm investing time, emotion, and effort into speaking with you. See, you are still able to upset me and push my buttons. I am obviously still here to be your doormat no matter what your actions are. You can safely continue to do what you are doing and rest assured I will be here waiting for you."

Now, please, for the love of God and the sake of your own marriage - NO CONTACT.

<small>[ October 31, 2003, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

So unless the WS flat out says to the BS 'I ended the affair with the OP, and I want to rebuild our marriage', the BS should just remain silent and leave.

<small>[ October 30, 2003, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So unless the WS flat out says to the BS 'I ended the affair with the OP, and I want to rebuild our marriage', the BS should just remain silent and leave. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. Learn to hang up w/o slamming down the phone and w/o saying anything. Learn to walk away silently with a neutral expression. Unless they can demonstrate that they've met the terms for ending Plan B as stated in the Plan B letter.

Sorry, wrooooong, Toomuchcoffeeman. My H SAID that to me 8 times. What they need to do is show some action. Takola is exactly right in how the conversation goes. I know my H is just checking to make sure I'm still waiting, just in case the relationship with the OW doesn't work out. Oh well, back to Plan B.

I would like to add something to Takola's excellent advice for those of you in Plan B. The real tragedy of this kinds of conversations is not only that they give reassurance to the WS that you are still waiting and pining away....but each time that you speak to them DELAYS....SETS BACK....the ability for this plan to work. It lengthens the amount of time the BS will have to do a plan B, and thus lengthens the pain.

Most folks enter Plan B with the idea that it will shock the WS into taking some action. It may do that....but that is the wrong mind set. And if you break contact....you will still be perceived as the needy, whimpy spouse who can't possibly live without them. Not a good place to be. Plan B is all about the BS....building a life, self esteem....showing an ability to move past this event with or without your WS.

Lastly.....because with children and other household decisions....some contact is necessary....PLEASE ORGANIZE AN INTERMEDIARY FOR THIS PURPOSE!!!!! Each time you do it personally, you weaken your Plan B. Find someone who can shuttle necessary conversation about these few subjects without having to talk on the phone, share a few minutes at the door, etc. Even SEEING you.....gives them a bit of a fix and slows down this plan. Missing you, missing the needs you filled, remembering you without the drama.....are all essential to making this Plan work. Good luck to all of you....my heart goes out.

Tak and Star.... what can I say - you've got it all here and beautifully said too. Now, I'm gonna go change my Plan A thread title - it needs Takola like "oomph." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Watch for it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:

Sorry, wrooooong, Toomuchcoffeeman. My H SAID that to me 8 times. What they need to do is show some action. Takola is exactly right in how the conversation goes. I know my H is just checking to make sure I'm still waiting, just in case the relationship with the OW doesn't work out. Oh well, back to Plan B. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry beleiver but you are wrong because if you truly wanted actions on his part then he would never have taken advantge of you 8 times. If you are not willing to enforce YOUR OWN non negotiable boundaries then you can't EXPECT him to observe them either, can you?

<small>[ October 31, 2003, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

My exWS has said numerous times over the past year that he wants to reconcile, but has never changed his behaviors. Recently, he was severely injured in a motorcycle accident. I was two weeks into "no contact". I broke down and did see him in the hospital. He talked about how "life changing" this accident was and how he had to get his priorities straight and his life in order. (supposedly to include a life with me)Well, when discharged he returned to the apartment he shares with OW and OC. He phoned me from the hospital the night before his discharge. Said he'd call me from home the next night. I told him "Do not call me. I'm not going down that path again". Three days go by, and I get a call from his 21 year old son. "Dad wanted me to call you and let you know how he was doing......etc." That was a low blow! It still allowed him (exWS) to know that I was interested in his wellbeing at some level (cake eater). At the same time, his son has been hurt enough through this whole mess, and I don't want to put him in the middle of this! It's now been six days and no calls. If his son does call again, how can I most appropriately set a limit about not calling me on behalf of his dad? I don't care if ex-stepson calls me to talk with me about his feelings and concerns, but don't want to support his being a messenger for his father.
his being a messenger for his father.

<small>[ October 31, 2003, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: lilymarie ]</small>

Takola and everyone else, I'm in Plan B by default. Long story short, our MC told my H that in order for him to sort out his own head, he had to have NO CONTACT with the OW and that he needed to separate from me. For some reason whatever our MC tells him to do, he does which is why he's no longer in the house. Anyways, my question is that we still have to have some sort of contact regarding children and finances. His plan is that he will come over every morning around 5:30 a.m. (I leave for work at 5:00 a.m.) and get our youngest son ready for school as well as get himself ready for work. If I need to have any sort of conversation with my H is it ok to do it via a letter left on the counter? I don't really have any one nearby that I trust to be an intermediary. Would this would and not setback the plan b?

Advice please. . . . .

Hope

I had the same thing to happen to me as Believer. Four weeks after H leaving for the OW, I'd recieved a phone call from him saying he wanted to come home, he loved me still, couldn't stop thinking about me, he was confused, his head battered. He told me he'd call the next day so that we could talk about reconcilling ~ he never showed up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Same thing happened over the next five months. He would call saying he was unhappy because he still loved me, he loved me more than OW, how he wished he'd never met the OW....blah, blah, blah...and stupid me was always there for him, reassuring him, giving him reassurance after reassurance. BIG MISTAKE!!! And so his affair continued on and on. He has now been with her nearly eight months.

The past four months though I've heard no more *I still love you*, he never mentions coming home anymore. He still after eight months, tries to justify why he had this affair, justification is not remorse!! We were still up until a week ago, chatting on the phone about different things, laughing and joking together, etc, etc....we were still having contact and he was even starting to drop by home unannounced, so I guess in a way I was still giving him his *fix* and letting him know that I was still there for him.

Things changed when I heard he may be marrying OW next year, I quickly moved into NC mode and I plan on sending PlanB letter shortly to him. Theres' been NC for a week and all of his calls have gone ignored.

I don't plan on giving him an opportunity to see me anymore, or to converse with him by phone again. I'm gone, now it's up to him what he does.

toomuchcoffeeman - You are absolutely right. That is why I am now in Plan B. Everyone else here, don't expect Plan B to be easy. WS will keep trying to establish contact, also relatives will jump in on their behalf. And you will think of a million reasons to break NC. But don't do it. Takola and others are absolutely right. (Gee maybe I should get this through my thick head). I've been in Plan B for almost a month and have only had contact once. But it was a real setback and got me right back on the rollercoaster for 2 days. But I'm still hanging in there, stumbling along the Plan B path and feeling better every day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:

toomuchcoffeeman - You are absolutely right. That is why I am now in Plan B. Everyone else here, don't expect Plan B to be easy. WS will keep trying to establish contact, also relatives will jump in on their behalf. And you will think of a million reasons to break NC. But don't do it. Takola and others are absolutely right. (Gee maybe I should get this through my thick head). I've been in Plan B for almost a month and have only had contact once. But it was a real setback and got me right back on the rollercoaster for 2 days. But I'm still hanging in there, stumbling along the Plan B path and feeling better every day.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good for you! Plan B will help you to either rebuild your marriage or help you to make the transition to move on with your life a LOT less painful.

On a side note, NC does not mean you can't contact the OW to tell her to please tell your WH to quit trying to get in touch with you. Chances are she is unaware of his attempts to contact you, and she will be extremely p****d off at him and will royally love bust his bu** off the next time she sees him. Unless she has a co-dependent personality, this revelation from you will go a long way in helping to burst whatever fantasy bubble she's been in since she and him started their affair. And even if it doesn't, your WH will know that every attempt to contact you will be relayed back to the OW, and he'll be less inclined to do so in the future.

hope4best,

First of all....I could string up a MC who would tell him he needed to move out of the house...and separate from his WIFE to figure this out. But since you are in Plan B...have you writtten a PlB letter? WHY is he getting ready for work at YOUR house? Having access to his home and the comforts there while he gets ready for work (with none of the responsibility of it) gives him the "fix" he needs to keep cake eating. You need to shut that down. An intermdiary would be WAY better, but notes should not undermine things to well as long as you don't see him.

LOL Believer, yes I do think you oughta be practising what you are preaching <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Just kidding <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Seriously I think you are doing well and hope that I can manage to survive the course. I think I will because as I've just said in a previous thread, once I set my mind on something, I stick with it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Also it's ran through my mind a few times to contact the OW and let her know that H contacts me A LOT and in the early hours of the morning while she is asleep in bed. Last time was two weeks ago, he'd called me at 4.30am in the morning to talk, yet was disturbed by OW so he'd rang off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I refrained from telling OW about all of this because I thought they'd be LB's. This all happened while in PlanA though when I was trying not to LB. If he does it again and now I've gone to PlanB, I may just decide to put the cat among the pigeons <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Star*Fish,

I posted a new thread under Plan A/B. Could you please take a look at the update and give me more feedback?? I figured since he's already out of the house, what does a Plan B letter do?? But once you read my update maybe you could send me some suggestions on what I could say to him.

Hope

Bump for Jessica. I know you say your conversations with your WH make you feel better, but read the bottom conversation. THIS is what you are saying to him.

I figured since he's already out of the house, what does a Plan B letter do??
It tells the wayward spouse EXACTLY what you expect of them.

There is no wondering why you are not speaking to them (maybe you’re just mad at them?) and what they have to do to DISCUSS reconciliation (doesn’t mean you will reconcile).

As far as having contact with them in Plan B, DON’T DO IT!

You give them a Plan B letter stating you want no contact until they end the affair.
Then you have contact with them outside the boundaries you have set.

This shows them you really don’t mean no contact. So why should your letter mean you want to reconcile?

Now, why isn't there a red version of the little grin graemlin, with horns? Ol' 2long needs one right now.

I said all that stuff. Never left plan A. My W ended her "friendship" with RM and now we're starting recovery.

The love bank drains because the banker EXPECTS their crumb-gobbling 2 someday impress the WS off the fence. It's okay 2 HOPE, just never expect.

Love, for me, is all about learning 2 accept my W's choices in life, whether I like them or not. As a result of my crumb-gobbling (mixed with an unhealthy dose of LBing, of course! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ), but without expectations for a speedy recovery, she got off the fence of her own volition. The "friendship" ran out of steam. Neither wants a R with the other ever again. I couldn't have asked for a better result, and I certainly couldn't have demanded one.

Okay, my helmet's on. Whack away! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
♥2long

bump

Takola, this is a difficult teaching that is hard to accept.

Yet, I wonder what I really have to lose.