I tried asking this in General Questions, but I don't think I was clear in my wording as I'm not getting any responses.

I discovered that my wife has been involved in an EA/PA for at least a month. She still continues to deny the extent of the relationship, despite overwhelming evidence otherwise.

The OM has moved, but they may still be in contact via e-mail etc. I have asked her to break contact, but she is stonewalling on this.

My question is this; How does one proceed when the WS will not admit what has happened? I desperately want to repair things and start some form of recovery, but it almost seems impossible given that my wife is in complete denial on the entire issue. I firmly believe things can be repaired if she will just come to the table on this.

I am a wreck over the entire thing, but I doing my best to hang in there and not fall apart.

Any thoughts? Anything at all?

<small>[ November 04, 2003, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Rippedin2 ]</small>

My SO also denied everything initially. What paid off for me was research and persistance. That may not work for you and persisting with questions and accusations may actually push her away. I don't think that there is one answer to the problem. I agree that truth and honesty are needed to really start working toward a strong relationship. I really dug in to get enough proof so that he could not continue to deny. I went through everything, all the paperwork I could find, hacked into his e-mail, even followed him. I talked to every mutual acquaitance I felt I could trust. This is what worked for me, I'm sure there are other options and others out there who can give much better insight. Good Luck!

Ripped
It sounds like you have been around the website and have read a bunch of the material here. That's good and you should add reading Surviving an Affair and Torn Asunder to your readings. These are great books and will help you understand a little bit of what you are up against.

As for you and your situation, the EA via email is a going to be a problem. It would be best for both of you that it stop ASAP, but WWs aren't like that. My WW is in an EA that was physical for one weekend but it has rocked our M to the core. She continues to pursue OM via phone and email so her secret world is still protected. My WW seems to have made up her mind that there will be no reconcilliation for us (aka "stonewalling"), though we are cordial and caring towards one another. I've been in Plan A for a month and have learned a tremendous amount about myself and made many improvements that will hopefully prevent a future A for this or future relationship.

The best suggestions I can make and the hardest for you to do is try to meet her ENs as much as possible. The classic ones for women are affection and conversation, but yours may vary. I continue to try to touch and talk to WW as much as she'll let me to let her know that a relationship with me is safe and will include meeting the unmet ENs that led to the A.

You've come to the right place, and it wasn't an accident that you found your way here. Pray, post, and think about how you can be a better man and H. Best wishes

Riding,

Thank you for your comments on this. I have been working on the EN's thing, trying to establish what her's are (and the ones I haven't been meeting). This is obviously going to take some time as she isn't taking the exercise seriously and I don't want to press her on it. For my part I've taken the step to assess what mine are and will be ready to discuss this with her when she is ready for it.

I guess the difficult part is the assumption on her part that everything is OK, despite the damage that has occured. Despite my best efforts to convey how this has hurt me, she is still self-centered on the entire thing.

We still seem to get along well despite all of this; we talk to one another and show small tokens of affection. My real fear is pushing too hard and creating even more damage. I will take your advice and get the books you have mentioned.

Nurse4gd;
You had mentioned about collecting information; I've actually done quite a bit of that, including e-mail (Hotmail leaves a real audit trail on a PC,long after the e-mails have been deleted), voice mail and phone calls. The content of those is quite explicit and undeniable, yet my wife has created some very lame explanations for them. This is the crux of the problem. I can get beyond what has happened, but it seems to me that she needs to get on board too for anything to happen at all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The best suggestions I can make and the hardest for you to do is try to meet her ENs as much as possible. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">er... no. That is not the most important thing in Plan A, nor the most effective way to win your wife back - in most cases. You may be an exception, but the most important part of Plan A is to eliminate lovebusters. The second most important is to expose the affair. The first person to whom you must expose it is your spouse - tell them what you know and how you know it. Next (like the same day) is to expose it to the OP, and then the OP's spouse. After that, if and only if your spouse does not end the affair, to anyone else who can help - their employer if they work together, family members, pastors, good friends who will supprt you in your quest to restore your marriage, etc. Tell all of these people that you want to work on your marriage and your spouse's relationship with the OP is hindering your efforts.

You can meet any of the emotional needs that your spouse will allow you to meet, but normally, in an affair, the spouse is getting their most important EN's met through the OP and will not be receptive to you meeting them. Trying to meet them and being constantly rejected is so painful that it diminishes your ability to avoid LB's which is more important, in most if not all cases. Meeting EN's is the most easily understood part of plan A, but not the most important. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If your spouse is NOT willing to work on your marriage, or is continuing an affair, read What Are Plan A and Plan B? after reading the "Basic Concepts" links below. In that case, you need to start Plan A with the help of a marriage counselor (see item #2, below). There are a couple terrific posts about Plan A that are worth reading at: Plan A, Doormats and Love Busters by Zorweb and Cerri on Plan A, which will help you avoid some of the common pitfalls...

2.) See a marriage counselor. This is hard. You need help. These boards are populated by amateurs. MC’s are professionals. There is a difference. They can help deal with issues the books don’t cover, and customize things to your individual situation. That said, there are lots of bad MC’s in the world. Read, and take to heart, How To Find A Good Marriage Counselor. You do not want an MC that is going to teach you how to live with an awful spouse, or how to adjust to divorce. Too many of them do, as is documented here: Hazardous Counseling. Reading that link may scare you off counseling, but it should give you some good ideas to ask a potential MC before you start w/ them, so you can avoid those that give you the wrong answers. You need one that is committed to helping couples have great marriages, and knows how to do that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">... and is familiar with Plan A and can guide you through it.

<small>[ November 04, 2003, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

JohnH39;

There is a lot of merit in what you say, and I have indeed taken some of the steps you've suggested. As soon as possible I exposed everything I had; unfortuneatly in my case I had to keep digging more and more to expose each lie as it was told. This meant that we had to go over it over and over again. The final version has only brought out an admittance that her friendhip with this man also involved her lying about her whereabouts on a few occaisions, and some innappropriate conversation topics. Far short of even admitting an emotional affair.

I've spoken to her best friend (who failed to defuse the situation; she didn't want to get involved but said that my suspicions were warranted). My wife was outraged and broke off the friendship with her. I talked to her Dad (which was hard); he had been developing some concerns about her as well and was very supportive. Again she was outraged. I have debated on whether I should talk to anyone at her work (where she is most likely doing most of the communication with the OM), but this might have serious repercussions in our case.

The OM in this case was living with another woman whom he had a child with; I have no contact information for her and little leads to go on so it doesn't seem I can exploit that route. I did contact the OM directly via e-mail, however he has ignored me.

So as you can see a lot of damage has occured here, Love Busters have abounded in all of this. This is why I am in Limbo; on one hand I want her to admit things so that we can get on with recovery, on the other hand forcing her to do so might be the biggest love buster of all.

I am so weak underneath after all of this, but I hope to keep up my strength so that I can make the right decisions.

My FWW would still be insisting that her OM was just a "special friend" if it were not for irrefutable evidence. Each step of the way I had to find evidence and confront her. First it was number of calls but this still didn't tell me whether it was a mild EA, strong one or PA.
Go to Radio Shack and invest in a voice activated recorder. If your WS uses home phone to contact OP then attach it to a phone line. If they use the cell during commuting time put one under a car seat.
If the WS uses home computer alot then but Spyware.
Once you can quote a verbal or e-mail conversation back to them then and only then will they be startled out of the fog.
Be forwarned though you'll hear/ read things that will hurt but at least the tables will then be turned and your WS can no longer treat you like a jealous mental patient.
Some people on this chat line don't believe in the spying. Too bad, I don't believe in the lying.

I am new here and I find myself more and more confused. What do you do when your W is having an A and she has already filed for a divorce?

I did in an off hand way talk with her about an affair but it blew up in my face and caused her to get mad and to not want to talk anymore. We are both Christians but she has departed as far as she can from Jesus.

Please help me. I am really getting very frustrated in that I broke off all communication but now I don't know if Plan A is for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...only brought out an admittance that her friendhip with this man also involved her lying about her whereabouts on a few occaisions, and some innappropriate conversation topics. Far short of even admitting an emotional affair.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Emotinal Infidelity As you can see from the article in that link, lying about your whereabouts and inappropriate conversation topics are proof of an emotional affair - but arguing about that will do you no good (the most I would do is print out the article and leave it laying around where she can see it). You are right in thinking forcing her to admit it would be an LB. Forcing her to do ANYTHING is an LB. But, you know she was in an affair, and she is refusing to end contact, which means she IS in an affair. Therefore, go to Plan A. Do a good one. Eliminate LB's. Tell her how your actions make you feel (NOT what you think about her actions!) Find out the guy's GF's address and go talk to her. That may be difficult, but not as difficult as divorce. When you've done a good Plan A, then you can go to Plan B.

I edited my post above after you read it (computer glitch). Sorry.

Joe: Yes, Plan A is for you!!!!

JohnH39,

Thank you once again for some bang-on advice. I've read the article in question and will try the "leaving around the house thing". This will not likely provoke any conversation in my case, but she will at least read it and maybe make her think a little.

As far as doing any further monitoring as the earlier person suggested; that is no longer much of an option for me. My WS doesn't use any home communication equip anymore because I did monitor all of those. My "evidence" includes e-mails, voice mails and telephone conversations, much of which discuss what went on the night before when they were out, what they were planning on doing etc etc. Even when confronted with such evidence my W said this was "just talk", although she did say it was innapropriate. This doesn't explain a lot of the content though. Now the problem is that the OM doesn't live around here anymore, and she is likely using her work e-mail and phone to do the communication. Confrontation hasn't worked.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Tell her how your actions make you feel </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oops! I meant "Tell her how HER actions make you feel".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Confrontation hasn't worked. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For many, it doesn't. Plan A/ Plan B are your best bet, but they are not fool-proof. (What is it that they say about fools being so ingenious that NOTHING is fool-proof?) Seriously though, there are no guarantees. You can only do the best you can, and the Harley Plan A/B strategy is the best way to do it. They are not easy. They are not intuitive. But, they work more often than just about anything else.

The crucial question you need to ask your wife is whether she wants to be married to you by being completely honest so that the marriage can be rebuild or whether she wants to be divorced so she can go and continue a relationship with the OM. If she continues to stonewall you then she has given you her answer.

I actually gave her that choice, her answer has been that she wishes to stay in the marriage. The trouble is, her insistance that "nothing happened" and "besides, he has moved away" make the exercise seem moot. It's hard to get her to play her hand when there's no cards on the table.

It appears that she is in the "fog" on this.

Nonetheless, I have formulated the best Plan A that I can muster and will stick with it for now and see what happens.

Wow! I had some amazing results today! I took the suggestion from JohnH39 and printed a copy of Emotional Needs and left it in a prominent place in our bedroom. I wasn't expecting her to say anything at all about it.

After work today, we were having a good conversation in the kitchen when all of a sudden she mentions that she read the article! She thought that the author was a little severe on the definition of what an EA is, but she opened the door to discuss this a little. The end result of all this was that she admitted that what had happened to her was an EA! Wow! This was a very powerful moment. I'm not out of the woods yet though..I know that there was some PA elements to this but it might take a lot longer for her to talk about that. For my part I was very receptive of her honesty on this and thanked her for it. We will see what happens, but I am very encouraged by what has occured here.

I must say thank you very much again to everyone who gave me some excellent advice on this.