Hi Cerri,

We've discussed this briefly before, but you recently wrote to L&C: """Expose the affair/relationship/friendship to friends, family, church, coworkers and anyone else that might have some influence to encourage her to stop what she is doing and recommit to the marriage."""

I mentioned in the past that my conversations with Steve Harley indicated that he differs somewhat from his father in advising betrayed spouses to radically and aggressively shotgun out the exposure of an affair.

I tend to agree with Steve. What I have told people in the past is that this may be a "gun better waved than fired". Let me expand on that.

At the point when this is usually proposed, the marriage is at a napir (if that is the right word) -- a total bottom.

I wonder if the social avalanche that sudden widespread exposure to EVERYONE brings on a wayward spouse would not force them into a defensive position -- where they are forced to say the usual WS line -- the marriage was over years ago, we haven't been in love, I'm out of here, etc. I would think that the prospect of slinking back to a relationship with the baggage of known fidelity would be enough to cause a sizable percentage of wayward spouses to take the road of divorce as the more "honorable" path at that point.

I wonder if a more measured exposure to a triaged group of influential intimates, with the unspoken threat of eventual widespread full exposure, might not be, in practice, a higher percentage play.

Your thoughts?

Here you hit on a key issue. Seems to me that exposure, on its own, is usually not enough. Even though I'm a Christian (but before I discovered MB) a work colleague had an A and asked me for advice. I totally failed to take a pro-M stance. We need an Exposure Letter giving the key points along the lines of Cerri's Plan B Letter Guidelines posted in JFO a while back.

Hi Mike -

Looking to stir up controversy are ya?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> LOL I tried on Friday but couldn't get anyone to bite on my post regarding stepfamilies. Shoulda put it at EN I guess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />


you recently wrote to L&C: """Expose the affair/relationship/friendship to friends, family, church, coworkers and anyone else that might have some influence to encourage her to stop what she is doing and recommit to the marriage."""


Note though, that I say anyone else that might have some influence to encourage her to stop what she is doing and recommit to the marriage. I think that's a key part of this.

The other thing I insist on is that the message not be about how immoral, evil, depraved the WS is - but rather it be about the BS and his/her desire to save the marriage. I don't tolerate bashing anyone - regardless of what they are or are not doing. So the exposure needs to be along these lines : My spouse is having an affair with J Doe (use the name). I love love my partner very much, I want to save my marriage and keep my family together. I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make the marriage great for both of us, please encourage him/her to do the right thing and end this relationship and recommit to the marriage.

It is all about the BS and their desire to save the marriage. It is not in any way judgmental or denigrating to the WS.


What I have told people in the past is that this may be a "gun better waved than fired". Let me expand on that.

But see, I consider that to be a threat, and threats are a form of a demand.


I wonder if the social avalanche that sudden widespread exposure to EVERYONE brings on a wayward spouse would not force them into a defensive position -- where they are forced to say the usual WS line -- the marriage was over years ago, we haven't been in love, I'm out of here, etc.

Yep, that's pretty much what I tell people to expect. But what I see over and over again after that blow up, is that the anger dissipates pretty quickly and the threats to file, leave, take the kids, get a RO, whatever are rarely followed through on. That anger and the accompanying threats are an intimidation attempt to keep the affair from further threat of extinction.

If you consider that an affair is an addiction, and you have some understanding of how addictions work, then you easily see the paralells at how it takes on a life of its own with a very real will to stay alive at all costs - even the destruction of the family and ultimately of self.


I would think that the prospect of slinking back to a relationship with the baggage of known fidelity would be enough to cause a sizable percentage of wayward spouses to take the road of divorce as the more "honorable" path at that point.

Some do. You're right, it's a risk. What we know is that we cannot guarantee that the marriage will be saved if the affair ends. BUT we can guarantee that the marriage will end if the affair continues. And the longer it continues, the harder it is to end it and the less likely the BS will be to reconcile and do the hard work of recovery.

Recovery, btw, is much harder than PlA of PlB.

I wonder if a more measured exposure to a triaged group of influential intimates, with the unspoken threat of eventual widespread full exposure, might not be, in practice, a higher percentage play.

I don't have a problem with the first part. Friends, family, church family, coworkers, boss. I wouldn't however go to the threat place.

The problem arises in that it's so hard to get people to do this anyway. And the one they want to leave off the list is the one that, "s/he will be sooooo angry if I tell mom/dad/boss/sister." That anger tells us it's a vulnerable spot and exactly the person who needs to know. If telling that person were not a distint threat to the A the WS wouldn't care if they knew. The exposee who triggers the most anger is the one you really need to tell.

C

Just as a jump in:

It seems to me that Steve's aspect of the timing of the increased pressure of "outing" the affair meshes very well with Plan B time. I see both the pros and cons of an early "outing" in terms of influential people. The one I did was very much a phased approach---only her sister knew in the short term (DD + 1 month), parents knew within 4 months (still Plan A), and a few more knew when I went to Plan B (around 6 months). I think that one of the reasons Steve doesn't push a broadcast of "they're having an affair" early is because he's working on the BS to help them with the MB concepts---and it's not going to help the situation to get a lot of noise in the form of "divorce the bum" from people who find out.

I saw my Plan A/B thing as some intensive "marriage training"---first done in relative secrecy, but then as I went to Plan B I was starting to run the more public "race" for my marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Recovery, btw, is much harder than PlA of PlB.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ain't that the truth!!! But nobody believes me either, when I tell them that... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think there is some exploration needed on whether the approach needs to be modified depending on whether the WS is the husband or the wife. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but it's one of the things I'm tracking and watching.

I can see where the phased in approach might be of value, but I have to tell you that in the past week I've had more than one person in PlB tell me they are done - it hurts too much - and they just can't handle it any more. So part of what I'm looking at is the risk/need factor of timing. At what point is staying in PlA a very real danger to the marrriage?

And along with that the fact that the longer an A is ongoing the more entrenched it becomes. So if you expose very early in the process, before the couple is seen out and about and accepted by friends and coworkers - family even - the more likely you are to get some of the discouragment factor.

Unfortunately we are a very apathetic society in general - and although we might frown on an A in the beginning, if the A couple seems happy and the WS is insisting that the M was over anyway, we are unlikely to get the disapproval that we might have got sooner. The more the A is in front of other people, the more it becomes accepted and the more settled into the R the A couple becomes.

This time of year is really hard for BS's. Their spouses are celebrating holidays with their affair partners, possibly their AP's families (who may or may not know the WS is married), and are dealing with trying to explain absences to their own families.

The other good thing about exposure is that there is a wealth of support from the BS's friends, families and coworkers. I can't tell you how many timnes someone has told me they wish they'd exposed much sooner - the shame and the isolation and the pain are much much less when they have advocates for the marriage who don't just think they are, "having problems."

I'd like to see infidelity carry the same stimatism as substance and spousal abuse as well as purchased sex.What would it take to get there? I don't know. But at one time we had opium parlors in this country and drunk driving was "just having fun" - it has to be doable. We need advocates for marriage, for commitment and for the children.

One way to get there is to come out of the infidelity closet, remove the shame from the BS, ask for advocacy and for support.

Have I mentioned I want to work with celebrities? I think this is how we get the message out there - breast cancer didn't get talked about before Betty Ford was brave enough to do it. Infidelity can get the same press and the same exposure. If we expose. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Cerri,

If you want to work with a celebrity may I suggest Hilary Clinton. There's a rumour in the UK that Bill may have had an A.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lovesaved:
<strong> Cerri,

If you want to work with a celebrity may I suggest Hilary Clinton. There's a rumour in the UK that Bill may have had an A. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great idea!!! Can you arrange that for me?

Another thought about exposure. What if we made that part of the discussion about marriage, conflict, and commitment before things got to the place where there is an A going on. What if, during premarital discussions we said, "You know, if you ever have an affair, I will tell everyone we know."

Yeah, I know it goes to the threat place. But how many of us have said (or are hearing now from well meaning friends and family) that if there was infidelity we would leave. It would be over. We'd file for divorce. I think we all say it at one time or another.

Well, what if we said instead that we would remain commited to the marriage but that we would expose the affair to anyone and everyone who would listen? I don't know that it would be a deterrant - I think the only good deterrant is a good marriage and extraordinary precautions. But it would be fair warning.

Anyway, I bring this up because it's the stance I've taken in recovery since d-day, and I imagine the stance cerrish would take if I were to stray. Every once in a while I jokingly tell him that if there is even a wiff of something not right - if I even suspect that there is someone else - the whole world will know. Boss, coworkers, family, friends - so don't even go there.

Now, it's said in a joking, friendly way, because I don't ever anticipate that it would be an issue. We have very good precautions in place in our marriage, there is no secrecy/privacy, and we spend our free time together - and we have a good marriage. But still, I think it's a good thing for each of us to keep in mind. If I chose to do something stupid and have an affair - I would reap the consequences of that choice when it was exposed to people around me. Maybe we should put that in the marriage vows - right next to the "forsaking all others," part.

Just a thought........

C

Basically, Steve Harley told me that was the agreement between him and his wife -- an affair and he is out of there.

Interesting. On the one hand, he sees a lot of the pain of infidelity, so I can understand it. On the other hand, he makes his living (in large part) helping people who have decided to fight through it. But he said it in the context of it being a deterrent, as I recall.

I guess my point in this thread is that every person and every situation is different, and responses probably should be taliored. Depending on the social and cultural origins of a person's support circle, I think a very prideful wayward mate may simply feel 100 percent forced to adopt the "the marriage is/was over" route if an infidelity is broadcast widely. Perhaps the route to keep that marriage intact is a little more patience followed by very selective disclosure.

Basically, Steve Harley told me that was the agreement between him and his wife -- an affair and he is out of there.

That kind of an answer from a mentor applicant might be a deal breaker for me. Although I expect if it did indeed happen he, like all the rest of us, would find that reality is very different than predictions.

A couple of years before my son died at birth, my former SIL had a baby who was also critically ill immediately and who died within days of being born. I vividly remember at the time wondering how she found the strength to drag her newly post partum body to the hospital and to sit at his side day and night dealing with all the terrible things that happen with sick babies.

When it happened to me, I knew how she did it. You shoulder the burden and take on the fight because you have no choice.

I think dealing with a spouse's infidelity is much the same. We might warn that if they ever stray we will abandon the marriage and get a divorce. But when you are faced with your history together, with the future of your children, with the very real financial implications and not least of all with the fact that you still love your mate - well, it's different than just coldly walking away. You fight the fight because it's where you are and you don't have a better option.


I guess my point in this thread is that every person and every situation is different, and responses probably should be taliored.

You know, I used to think that. But when you hear as many stories as I do in a day you begin to realize the univerality of it all. Our humaness makes us the same every bit as much as it makes us unique. In very rare cases - and they are the exception rather than the rule - we make significant departures from the program, but not usually.

I do know that if you talk frankly with anyone who has worked with me for any amount of time they will tell you that I listen, that I take their concerns and their needs into account and that I tailor my coaching to them as individuals. Not the same as tailoring the concepts and the advice - it's what makes coaching so uniquely wonderful.

C

Oh, if only it was that easy.

First, as to a statement made about "If you ever have an affair I'm out of here." I said that seventeen years ago but when I discovered my wife's affair I also discovered a love for her that even I never knew existed. An affair changes you whole attitude on many things.

Exposing The Affair

In my case I sat on that knowledge for well over seven months. April 28th of this year I literally felt the desire to struggle for recovery float out the door as I was watching my wife prepare dinner one evening. It was at that point I knew I needed to stop Plan A and go to Plan B. I left the house and called my wife, because of a bad connection on my cell phone the last words she heard from me were, "You leave me no choice." It was thirty minutes before I found an area where I could call her again.

What I learned the next day was that words have many meanings. One, what the speaker thinks they mean. Two, what the hearer thinks they mean. Three, what they actually mean.

Me - You leave me no choice.

I was ready for Plan B. The time and energy I had used in PLan A was running out and LB's were on the edge of becoming a problem for me. I was going to talk to my parents and my in-laws about a legal seperation or seperate maintenance agreement.

Her - You leave me no Choice.

She thought I was going to her parents about the affair. The ones who would be most angry and most dissapointed. At this point I had shared the knowledge of the affair with only a few close friends of mine and the pastoral counseling I was receiving. Our pastors comment when I approached him about it was "Shhhh, this does not need to get out." And nothing was ever said or done on his part or the churches part on stopping contact between my wife and the other man. They both participated in the same quartet, he sang and she played the paino.

But while I was talking to her parents the next day I was blind sided by my mother-in-law. Here I was wanting to talk about a legal seperation and what they thought would be best for the two of us. She asked me point blank if I thought my wife was involved with another man. I only discovered two weeks ago that the very day I made that comment that my wife had called her mother and told her exactly what she wanted her to hear. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> If I hear the words "Moral encouragement and support one more time from my wife, my in-laws, or the other man I swear I may do something stupid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (jk, I'm actually doing pretty good with recovery and healing)

Along rolls June 18 and we discover OM number 2. I waste no time on this one. My in-laws know, the pastor of both churches knows. The second man was a member of another church where my wife was the pianst. His wife is informed by no other than the OM himself. I had called asking for his work number, she gave me his cell phone number. That was the jest of our conversation. When he got home she simply asked "Did Trusting get in touch with you?" Apparently he had no idea how to respond and one lie lead to another and before you knew it I was getting a call from her wanting to know what was going on between my wife and her husband.

My wife lost her job at this church. That pastor called and spoke to our pastor and she lost her job there too. But with all the falling out that was taking place I believe she became devasted. Either too many people were finding out and her lies were becoming to ahrd to hide or it was the straw that borke the camels back.

Seven days later she polietly accused me of molesting our oldest daughter and asked for financial information for her attorney. She was filing for a divorce.

How far does blood run. For almost an entire year me and my in-laes had been gathering two or three times a month and were praying together for the restoration of our marriage. My wife spent two hours talking with her mother and I am now the outcast. Chile Molestor, bi-polor, manic depressive, financial faliure, abandoned the children, chemical imblanaces, physical imbalances and the list goes on and on.

My personal doctor ran a complete physical on me and noted that I was a perfect speciman of health (this was done at my mother in-laws request), the counselor I had been seeing for well over a year now gave me a complete and clean mental and emotional bill of health along with a local Physiological office. Other than the typical emotions that comes with affairs and divorces they all thought I was quite compentent. Of course that did no good for my mother in law. It is all still my fault.

End result -

Thirty days after our divorce is final my in-laws are going to dinner with my former wife and her new boyfriend, WITH our children. The children are calling me wanting to know why Mommy is hugging and kissing another man. Our oldest daughter is asking why Mommy is giving her new boyfriend long, wet, sloppy, disgusting kisses in a public parking lot while all of our children and two others are sitting in the car.

Expose the affair, the fallout may result in a filing for divorce but that's only because the WS is still running from themselves and their lies. If I had know a year ago what I know now about affairs and the addictive qualties they have I would have know that the best thing to do was to remove the substance, that being the OM.

Yow, that is a sad tale, Trusting.

I guess my first thought is that in an academic question of generic strategy (such as this thread), you are always talking about giving the marriage the "best chance". There are no guarantees of success, and sometimes feelings are too far gone. And even if your strategy is correct timing and the subtleties of communication play crucial roles.

I wonder, though, if in retrospect you view as good or bad the heavy role your in-laws played in your story? I think that (exposure strategies aside)a common mistake people make is to bring in other parties, when direct communication between the spouses is the problem.

Cerri -- even if we all agreed on an exposure strategy, correct timing and the subtleties of communication play crucial roles. That is what I think good coaching is important beyond following a rote methodolgy as sometimes espoused on these baords (not by you). In addition to MB, I'm also a big fan of personality typing. Have you ever seen the website www.personalitytype.com? I think overlaying the insights from things like personality types and family of origin issues are crucial to fine-tuning the implementation of these strategeies. So, to my mind, "tell everyone" or "tell no one" or "tell a few" is the wrong answer -- not enough data...

Either may "often" be the right answer, but if it is your family that fails, that is going to much matter, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

A quick additional thought -- the sort of personality background I am talking about may be more important to assess in the betrayed spouse than the wayward spouse in considering strategy and timing. When I was counseling with Steve H, (non-affair situation) he would often ask "how much fuel do you have left?". I think that is a crucial question. The capacity, patience, and personality of the betrayed spouse, who must bear the burden for awhile, is important to assess in developing timing and strategy.

Mike C2--

You are right. There are no guarantees. Even if you get the strategy and timing right the communication between the two involved are the key issues.

I truly believed that my father-in-law was the one person in the world who could accept the reality of the situation, speak to his daughter in a loving attitude, remind her tht we all fall short and make mistakes and point her back into the marriage. I still believe this today.

But....we are not able to pre-determine how those that are informed will react. Based on our ideas of these people, past occurances in other situations we can try to reason an outcome, but never predict one.

In this case my mother-in-law went straight to denial. I watch daily as my father-in-law struggles with what is righteous and his love for his daughter, a tough place to be.

Good or bad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> We are still waiting on that one. As I stated, I sill believe that her father is the one person in her life who could encourage a change in my wifes attitude.

Involving to many people? This is true. The real problem lies in the two partners. In my situation communication was out of the question. For well over a year I was never in my wifes "comfort zone", not even when she was telling the OM;

I sometimes sit back and watch him now and wonder how I ever got myself in this mess"

I was hoping that her father could somehow help us communicate as he also agreed that until my wife and I could come into the same room and talk about our issues that nothing would ever come of our relationship.


Both good and bad. By their actions they have given their daughter their blessing in new relationships. New relationships at this stage of our life are nothing but Novacain to ones heart. Bad, because it puts our children in a position of having to choose between what their pure minds preceive a marraige to be and what they are actually being exposed to.

You are right about who and how many to tell. No matter how many relationships you collect data from there will always be a few that are out in left field somewhere. Each person has to make their decisions and then live with the concenquences.

If you are a controlling person, and that is one of your WS's complaints about you, and what they use as justification for the affair, then telling can be seen as one more thing you are doing to control/manipulate them. If you are a pleaser, and telling others is out of character for you, then telling others will probably be a much more effective wake-up call...and much harder for you to do. So, perhaps we can conclude that the more you like the idea of exposure, the less likely it is to be helpful, and the more you dislike the idea, the more important it is that you do it.

JMHO

<small>[ November 12, 2003, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

Mike C2--

You are right. There are no guarantees. Even if you get the strategy and timing right the communication between the two involved are the key issues.

I truly believed that my father-in-law was the one person in the world who could accept the reality of the situation, speak to his daughter in a loving attitude, remind her tht we all fall short and make mistakes and point her back into the marriage. I still believe this today.

But....we are not able to pre-determine how those that are informed will react. Based on our ideas of these people, past occurances in other situations we can try to reason an outcome, but never predict one.

In this case my mother-in-law went straight to denial. I watch daily as my father-in-law struggles with what is righteous and his love for his daughter, a tough place to be.

Good or bad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> We are still waiting on that one. As I stated, I sill believe that her father is the one person in her life who could encourage a change in my wifes attitude.

Involving to many people? This is true. The real problem lies in the two partners. In my situation communication was out of the question. For well over a year I was never in my wifes "comfort zone", not even when she was telling the OM;

I sometimes sit back and watch him now and wonder how I ever got myself in this mess"

I was hoping that her father could somehow help us communicate as he also agreed that until my wife and I could come into the same room and talk about our issues that nothing would ever come of our relationship.


Both good and bad. By their actions they have given their daughter their blessing in new relationships. New relationships at this stage of our life are nothing but Novacain to ones heart. Bad, because it puts our children in a position of having to choose between what their pure minds preceive a marraige to be and what they are actually being exposed to.

You are right about who and how many to tell. No matter how many relationships you collect data from there will always be a few that are out in left field somewhere. Each person has to make their decisions and then live with the concenquences.

Mike:

nadir

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> Mike: nadir
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><blush> And to think i write for a living.

well
the exposure of the affair to other people whose thought is valued by the WS , puts a big strain on the affair as the WS is pushed into proving that the A is good and the marriage was over long time ago.

This also drains them becuase of the validation by others problem. (eg : being called as slut,whore,bad man etc...). They are really pressured. This pressure most of the time ends only with name calling the BS and very little further actions like filing for D, seperation, moving out etc..

This new scenario which completely destroys the basis of affair ( secrecy) . So the affair enters into reality and it is totally in hostile phase. So the responses between the affairees changes and they react differently. They also tends to LB more and more.Their true face comes to light and they start seeing each other clearly.
So the WS who wandered into the A for a quickfix for her real life problems end up with more hostile problems.

So the soulmate thing ends.

I recognize all the potential upside to exposure.

When it is the right thing it is the right thing.

However, I am not sure that one size fits all. If an affair is dying already, or the WS is of a certian personality type, exposure may tilt a salvageable situation into a permanent divorce.

There are other scenarios as well. The most obvious being when you tell the other parties spoiuse and they toss the OP out, the two parties have more time to be together (albeit with the stresses you mention).

The other point is the way exposure is implemented, and I think it is often subject to some <understandable> nasty LB spinning by the betrayed spouse.

Just some thoughts.