My H advised me 2 months ago he has been unhappy. In fact, he thinks he has been unhappy for the last 25 years of our marriage, if not all his life. He admitted that he has never been one to get "in touch" with his true feelings and being a man is having a difficult time doing so now. Having tried to emotionally connect in the past has been difficult at best and I must admit that I myself quit trying, sublimating my need for intimacy with my work, family and yes a brief (2 week) affair myself 22 years ago which I recently confessed to. He hates his job and has not been recognized for his tireless dedication. He is tired of giving and wanted to know when it would be his turn to be given to. 3 weeks ago, I discovered a gift receipt. I confronted him and he admitted to having an affair with a co-worker for the past year. He claims that he is not in love with this woman and that he told her "he loves his wife" throughout the entire ordeal and that she recognized there relationship was pointless. He said that she persisted on breaking through his veneer until he admitted he was unhappy and desperate, helping him to get in touch with his true feelings about his life. He says it was mutually ended both seeing the futility just before my discovery but then I caught him calling her to tell her I found out. I was devastated by but more importantly, I don't know this man. When I asked him if he is remorseful, he says "no". When I ask him "why not", he says that he got to the point of giving up on us and giving to me. He sees me as the source of all of his unhappiness, having given to a W that is a taker and enabling her all the while. I can see, at times, he is really trying to understand what led us to this place. Other times, he just seems consumed in resentment for what he thinks is time wasted trying to detach me from the diversions I have created trying to cope with the lack of intimacy in our relationship. I have taken steps to let him know how much he means to me, love letters, notes and focused attention. I feel downright smothering and dependent, traits I have always hated yet he claims perhaps he would have liked (e.g., key to his happiness). Additionally, I'm consumed with some of the not so good stuff like self-blame and guilt for not having recognized his grumpiness as more than just habit, but a crying out for comfort. I love this man deeply but don't know the next steps I should take. When asked if he wants space, he says "no" but he won't let me in to his heart and keeps going over and over the things that I did to contribute to our problems. His only fault, in his mind, is that he was a giver, perhaps to the point of being a martyr, enabling me to take and be selfish. I see things very differently but every attempt in my trying to explain me ends up circling back to him saying "see. your self centered". Although sex is wonderful, he often can't look at me, cuddle and show signs of affection afterwards, leaving me feeling confused, depressed and desperate. Thanks in advance. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You can recover. Many people have. It isn't easy, and not everyone succeeds, but as long as you are both working on it, your chances are close to 100%. If your spouse is NOT willing to work on your marriage, is denying involvement in an affair despite the evidence, and/or is continuing an affair, read What Are Plan A and Plan B? after reading the "Basic Concepts" links below. In that case, you need to start Plan A with the help of a marriage counselor (see item #2, below). There are a couple terrific posts about Plan A that are worth reading at: Plan A, Doormats and Love Busters by Zorweb and Cerri on Plan A, which will help you avoid some of the common pitfalls. Your situation is harder, but your chances of saving your marriage and actually making it better than before are still good. But, whether your spouse is "on board" or not, you should do three things:

1.) Learn. The most important and helpful single source of information for my wife and I was “Surviving an Affair” by Willard Harley (hereinafter referred to as “SAA”) available at the Bookstore, Amazon.com, and bookstores all over. SAA is THE best book on the market for helping one get to the root of “the message of the affair” (BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THE QUESTIONAIRES!). It (along with the Basic Concepts section of this site) is also helpful for giving you a vision of what a great marriage should look like. The approach of SAA to this problem is that the best defense against affairs is to have a great marriage. My wife said we had a good marriage, but she still had an affair. She was kidding herself, but it was not until we read SAA and saw what a great marriage should look like that we could clearly identify the problem areas and had the tools necessary to fix them. So that you can get started right away, while waiting for SAA to arrive in the mail, read everything in the Basic Concepts section of this site. Next, read all the Q&A's on infidelity on this site. They are found at How to Survive Infidelity

The phrase “the message of the affair” is from the book “Torn Asunder”, by Carder (hereinafter referred to as “TA”). I personally think this is the best book on affair recovery we have read. In particular it deals with the two different paths the recovery of the betrayed spouse (BS) and the wayward spouse (WS) need to take, and deals w/ remorse in a way that I prefer to SAA. Read it together, if your spouse is willing. If not, go through it yourself. If you or your spouse has issues with control, you might also want to read “The State of Affairs”, (SOA) by Todd Mulliken, which also treats the remorse issue similarly to TA. SOA also deals with "the vision thing" for marriage, which is neglected in SAA.

2.) See a marriage counselor. This is hard. You need help. These boards are populated by amateurs. MC’s are professionals. There is a difference. They can help deal with issues the books don’t cover, and customize things to your individual situation. That said, there are lots of bad MC’s in the world. Read, and take to heart, How To Find A Good Marriage Counselor. You do not want an MC that is going to teach you how to live with an awful spouse, or how to adjust to divorce. Too many of them do, as is documented here: Hazardous Counseling. Reading that link may scare you off counseling, but it should give you some good ideas to ask a potential MC before you start w/ them, so you can avoid those that give you the wrong answers. You need one that is committed to helping couples have great marriages, and knows how to do that.

You are on an emotional rollercoaster right now, and there will be times that you will think it would be best to just divorce your spouse and go on with your life. Though there are no guarantees, recovery IS possible, but it takes time and effort. You will hate yourself if you don't do everything you can to make that happen. Give yourself the time you need.

3.) I understand that you may not be a person of faith, but for me, getting my spiritual life in order was crucial. As I said, this is hard. I knew I would need all the help I could get. Repenting of the habitual sins in my life let me stop pushing God away so I could hold on for dear life. I had to humble myself and ask Him what I had done wrong, and what I could do to be the husband He wanted me to be for his child, my wife. This was not about blaming myself. It was about doing what I could to do my part in having a great marriage. My wife could participate or not, but I had to know I had done everything I could do. It also helped me to let go of thinking about what SHE needed to do, since I couldn't control her, anyway.

You might also want to read through: WAT's Quick Start Guidelines for Betrayed Spouses, but keep in mind that these are the writings of amateurs. Get the books, read the articles, and see a GOOD counselor - you need the best help you can get.

Of course, that is just my opinions and what worked for me, who experienced it once, first hand. Harley, who has helped HUNDREDS of couples through this process, lays out his program in the following link: How to Survive Infidelity You will find that I mostly followed his plan. It works. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Montana Sky,

Ok first step is make no decisions. Next step read the articles here on "withdrawal". Your H is withdrawing from the other woman, OW. Hence he won't let you in for awhile, but he very likely will as your changes appear to him to be permenant.

Next go get Surviving an Affair by Harley and the book His Needs Her Needs also by Harley. These two books are easy to read but they will explain alot to both of you. He may not want to read them at first, but you read them. Don't try to educate him, just leave them around for him to see.

After that, read about plan A. He says he has stopped the affair that is good. But, some plan A, which it sounds as if you are doing pretty well, will help. Particularly stop the love busters, LB's. These are defined in the articles here and the books mentioned.

You will get more posters tomorrow, but hang in there. You are in a better situation than you realize. It will take Time and Patience, but if you give T&P a try and you keep up with your changes, I think you will do fine.

You don't realize it now, but this A may be the start of your marriage really changing for the better. You, I think, realize that he wants from you what you have wanted from him. Gradually, he will realize it as well.

So hang in there, do some reading. Post and ask questions, and give it T&P.

God Bless,

JL

Dear Montanasky,

I don't lurk on this board very often, but I did today and happened to see your post. I have a few thoughts to share with you.

Take all of the responsibility that you want to for the state of the marriage. However, the affair was not your fault. A bad marriage doesn't CAUSE an affair. All it does is give an excuse for the WS to do what they desire to do. Both of you need to take full responsibility for your actions in both of your affairs. It's okay to say that your marriage was not very intimate and it made you more vulnerable to an affair. It's not okay to say that either of you HAD an affair BECAUSE your marriage was not very intimate. That's not the reason. The affairs were done because the person doing them WANTED to do them. The sooner you guys each take full responsibility for your affairs, the sooner you'll be able to begin recovery.

Your H's personality type sounds like the kind that believe that a woman is the answer to all of their problems. If my wife loved me enough then my situation at work wouldn't feel so bad. If my wife loved me the way I need to be loved then I would feel happier than I do. If my wife loved more and showed me more, then I'd feel complete. Have you heard those before? They are false statements. He's looking to a woman for his happiness. He is NEVER going to find it there. He has to find it within himself first and then when he loves himself, he will be able to love another. The key to marital bliss isn't to find the perfect partner, it's learning to BE the perfect partner.

What was his childhood like? Many of the answers to this situation may lie there. Are you sure that he hasn't had any other affairs or one nighters? Has he had any emotional affairs with co-workers? Church members? Club members?

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. We have been in therapy for about 9 months and we are experiencing wedded BLISS! I know it can be done so just hang in there and get some answers. Can you both get into individual counseling? It might really help.

One tool that we found to be incredibly helpful was to figure out our Enneagram personality types. After you've done everything on THIS website (read all of the books, etc.) then try an Enneagram personality assessment (our favorite on is in a $10 book called The Essential Enneagram by Daniels and Price) and figure out your types. Answer after answer will lie in finding out this information about yourselves. It's incredibly revealing and accurate! It's helped our entire family. The therapist we found uses it as a tool to understand her clients better because it's so accurate and gives her such good insight into the inner workings of her clients. We have so much more love and compassion for each other now that we understand so much about each other.

There are also many free (although not always as accurate) tests on the web. There is one in my signature line. If you find your types and share them with me, I might be able to help with some of the dynamics of your situation.

Take care.

Stillwed

Stillwed, thanks for your quick response. All responses to my request were wonderful. Yours touched a key point and is a revelation to me. When my husband told me 2 months ago he has been unhappy, I made the key point that other people and things don't bring happiness. We make it ourselves through love of ourselves. Frankly, I don't think he gets this completely. No. Correction. I think he DOES get this and is afraid of facing himself. He has been unhappy about work for years but has done nothing. He has been unhappy in his marriage but hasn't figured out a way to fix things, nor involved me in his thoughts so that I can help. You hit the nail on the head. Until he loves himself, he can't love me or anyone else for that matter. My job will be to help him discover love for himself. This won't be easy as this is one of the things he resents about me - I like who I am. I am an independent thinker. I am confident in my feelings. I am a survivor. I love myself. This is scary to him and in fact he sees all of these traits as my being self-centered and a taker. Things are becoming very much clearer to me just with this simple revelation. I can now quit blaming myself and turn to understanding the source of our issues. To this, I am eternally grateful to you.

<small>[ December 16, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: MontanaSky ]</small>

Dear Montana,

I'm so glad that this information helped you. Please don't overlook the need for a good therapist. The one we found uses the Enneagram and the process of transformation as opposed to behavioral therapy. It's been just amazing. Another person that writes from this perspective wrote the book Passionate Marriage and a new one called Resurrecting Sex . His name is David Schnarch. Another favorite author and book of ours is Getting The Love You Want by Harville Hendrix. There is a wealth of information in there and exercises in the back that are comparable to several months of therapy!

Also, please do figure out your personality types. It takes a lot of the sting out of the situation. For example, my H is a Type Four. They are the romantics of the Enneagram. They see what is not there instead of what IS there in any situation. They long for something or someone to fill that empty spot for them. They can be in a relationship that is 95% excellent and can pine for the 5% that is NOT there instead of being thankful for the amazing 95% that is. Knowing this about himself has transformed my H's thinking!!

Take care!

Stillwed

Stillwed,
Just took the Enneagram test. It was spot on. Results were close showing me as type 1, 3 or 8. All scores on these were between 10 and 11.3. When reading them, I said, "yep, that's me". Now trick is to get H to do the same and understand what drives him. Thanks again for your thoughtfulness in spending the time to point me in a positive direction.

Dear MS,

Of the three types you mentioned, the Eight and One are similar (they are in the same triad...the "gut" triad), but the Three is somewhat different. I'm a One and my daughter (age 24)is a Three. Ones and Eights have a propensity for anger. Ones are angry with themselves and direct their negative energy primarily inward toward THEMSELVES, demanding perfection of themselves and being very critical of themselves first and then others. Eights direct their negative energy toward others (outside of themselves). Ones have very high moral standards and tend to follow rules that someone else has made up. Eights tend to sort of make theirs up as they go along at times. They are both very strong-willed.

Let's say that a One and an Eight are angry with a co-worker. The One might criticize the person if they know them well, or be cold to them, or suggest ways to let them know how to better handle things. The Eight might blast them out of the water verbally. Eights have little fear. They like to be in control of all situations. They need loyal followers and will let you know if they feel that you are not being loyal. They hate weakness and never want to be seen as weak themselves, nor do they tolerate weakness in others.

Threes are able to morph into whatever you need them to appear to be. Appearing to be what you need is very important to them. They might act differently toward their boss, their spouse, their friend, their kids. My H for example has a strong Three-wing. He was able to be a good H to me and an excellent father while having numerous affairs.

A Three will lie when the truth would serve them better. My H's best friend is a Three. He gave us a last minute invite to a benefit dinner and gave us free tickets. We went to please the friend because he said he needed to fill the table. While there, he came up to us and told us that he bought our tickets for us because he felt that we needed a nice evening out!! Well, it wasn't a nice evening out (he hadn't given us the proper attire info) and we didn't even want to be there! I know he didn't have to buy those tickets so why say that except to impress us and put him in a good light?

He's an amazing cook and host and loves to have groups over. He will invite us for what sounds like an intimate dinner for four and we'll get there and there will be 18 people there!! We've learned to ask lots of questions...lol! We DO love him though! He's recently taken the Enneagram test and is interested in it.

Here are some quotes from The Essential Enneagram by Daniels and Price:

Deciding between types...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Types One and Eight:

Perfectionists (Ones) and Protectors (Eights) can be considered look-alike types because both are Body Center types and are concerned with rightness, justice, truth and fairness. Protectors, however, state their truth openly, express their anger directly, and go from impulse to action easily. Perfectionists suppress anger and impulse, becoming resentful and tense until a sense of righteousness allows their anger to spill out.

Types One and Three:

Perfectionists and Performers can be considered look-alike types because they are both achievers. Both can be goal oriented and success oriented. The differences are that Perfectionists are more likely to be hounded by their inner critic, which motivates them to do what is judged right by the high standards of the critic, while Performers are more driven to succeed and to change their approach, even cutting corners if necessary, to get to the goal and be recognized for their accomplishments.[/

Types Three and Eight:

Performers (Threes) and Protectors (Eights) can be considered look-alike types because both are assertive, determined, action and goal oriented, and willing to take charge. They also radiate competence and confidence and may inadvertently stop on anyone who gets in their way. However, Performers will shift gears, alter themselves, and change direction somewhat like chameleons in order to get goals accomplished, while Protectors will hold to a position, get confrontational, and express anger directly and easily. Performers' anger mostly comes up when they feel obstructed in getting to a goal.

Here are the descriptions of each of those types from the same book. You can decide which one fits you best:

Quoted from The Essential Enneagram by David Daniels and Virginia Price:

Type 8... “I approach things in an all-or-nothing way, especially issues that matter to me. I place a lot of value on being strong, honest, and dependable. What you see is what you get. I don't trust others until they have proven themselves to be reliable. I like people to be direct with me, and I know what someone is being devious, lying, or trying to manipulate me. I have a hard time tolerating weakness in people, unless I understand the reason for their weakness or I see that they're trying to do something about it. I also have hard time following orders or direction if I do not respect or agree with the person in authority. I am much better at taking charge myself. I find it difficult to display my feelings when I am angry. I am always ready to stick up for my friends or loved ones, especially if I think they are being treated unjustly. I may not win every battle with others, but they'll know I've been there.”


Type One... “I have high internal standards for correctness, and I expect myself to live up to those standards. It's easy for me to see what's wrong with the things as they are and to see how they could be improved. I may come across to some people as overly critical or demanding perfection, but it's hard for me to ignore or accept things that are not done the right way. I prided myself on the fact that if I'm responsible for doing something, you can be sure I'll do it right. I sometimes have feelings of resentment when people don't try to do things properly or when people act irresponsibly or unfairly, although I usually try not to show it to them openly. For me, it is usually work before pleasure, and I suppress my desires as necessary to get the work done.”

Type Three..."Being the best at what I do is a strong motivator for me, and I have received a lot of recognition over the years for my accomplishments. I get a lot done and am successful in almost everything I take on. I identify strongly with what I do, because to a large degree I think your value is based on what you accomplish and the recognition you get for it. I always have more to do than will fit into the time available, so I often set aside feelings and self-reflection in order to get things done. Because there's always something to do, I find it hard to just sit and do nothing. I get impatient with people who don't use my time well. Sometimes I would rather just take over a project someone is completing too slowly. I like to feel and appear "on top" of any situation. While I like to compete, I am also a good team player.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hope that helps you. You can see why I find this little book to be so valuable!! It's a steal at $10! It's only $8 on Amazon.com .

Stillwed

<small>[ December 18, 2003, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: stillwed ]</small>

Stillwed, you are so thoughtful and I feel we have a connection. I am a 1W2 almost certainly. I hope you will indulge me in asking you for continued advice. I have been conflicted today. H said things were over with OW. However, he still sees her daily at work. He is quitting his job. He has given me his password to email (at my request). Yet, I still have doubts that things are really over with OW. One day very loving, open and talkative coupled with great sex. The next day, full of doubt and unable to express his love for me. He confuses me to the point that I am unsure where we stand. I feel that his change of mood/heart typically occurs after a good romp in the sack. So, now I'm wondering if it would be best that we lay off sex until he sorts things out. Your thoughts?

Dear Montana Sky,

Good morning! I'm not sure what the answer is to your dilema. As a One, I had to be careful not to take sex out of the equation because Ones have trouble with repressing their own physical desires. Once I get to the point of ignoring my own sexual needs we have a problem. I can go for weeks without it just by putting my focus elsewhere.

When I keep myself aware of those physical needs, I find that I'm a very sensual person and that I need sexual contact quite frequently to remain fulfilled. That is pretty typical for a One. We love sex and are very sensual, but generally we tend to repress those desires because we somehow see sex as a moral issue (even in the context of marriage) rather than the tool to bring us closer that it really is. Often, until we break through this area, sex seems sort of "dirty" to us.

If this is a problem area for you personally, then I'd probably suggest that you not avoid sex with your H. Try and stay connected to him emotionally during sex and see if that helps at all. DO PROTECT YOURSELF from STDs.

Men tend to express love through sex. If you keep this line open between you, you might be keeping the only line of love open that he has to you right now.

I don't know about you, but after finding out about my H's affair, I needed sex very often to be reassured of his affection and love.

What he is probably experiencing afterwards is guilt. He isn't addressing his guilt right now. He is blaming you. If he isn't addressing it then it's going to come out somewhere. Ones make excellent judges and if you are a One then he has felt judged by you in the past. Unfortunately, feeling judged isn't a pleasant thing and people don't like it. He is using this as an excuse for his present behavior even if you don't routinely judge him any longer. Even if you've grown past this, he's using it as an excuse to not have to face what he has done.

Step number one in recovery is for him to take the blame for all of this. It's for him to say that he went outside of the marriage to find what he was looking for and that was not appropriate. He needs to see that he can't blame you for his poor choices.

If we could figure out what type he is and he could read about himself he might be shocked into realizing this. This tendency to blame you is definitely an expression of the box he's in (the personality type he's adopted to survive life). Sounds like he's in the good old victim mode and mentality. I'm a survivor like you...victimhood never suited me. He's got to come to a point where he sees that.

So, what was his childhood like? Did it include losing a parent figure to divorce or death? What was his relationship like with his father? Mother? Are they still living?

I find it interesting that he thinks of you as a taker. This is very similar to my H's initial take on me. He has now figured out through much soul searching, therapy and an amazing men's group that he was the taker. He was extremely self-centered and narcissistic. We had been married since he was 18 and I was 17 so it was hard for us to see. I appeared to be the "taker" because I knew more about what I wanted than he did. I had more direction and general happiness in my life than he did. Since he believed that the only way a person could be truly happy was if someone was GIVING them that happiness, then he assumed that he was giving it to me. Wrong answer. I found it on my own outside of him because he didn't have it to give and even if he did, it wasn't his job to be my happiness. He actually assumed that because I didn't express my motional needs to him that he must be meeting all of them. It was pretty warped!

Looking forward to hearing your response! Hope you are hanging in there. He's in a deep fog right now and you can't believe much that he says or read much from what he does. Sorry, but that's the reality of it. I'd do some serious snooping to find out if he's in contact with the OW. Can you stop by his job unannounced? Can you surprise him at work with a picnic lunch? Watch his cell phone bill. You might want to put some sort of tracker on your computer if they e-mail or IM each other. I'm so sorry you are going through this. It literally feels like you are in Hell.

Stillwed

<small>[ December 19, 2003, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: stillwed ]</small>

Just for fun would you like to hear what a One's judging sounds like? Now don't try this at home, even if you are tempted!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, you're tired of this marriage huh? So what do you do about that? Do you tell me that you want a divorce? Do you make an appointment with a marriage counselor? Do you go to individual counseling to find out if the problem might lie in you? Do you do the dirty work of getting a lawyer and getting on with a split? NO! Oh, NO, YOU have an affair! Why? Because you are chicken. You are afraid to face yourself without ME. So you go off and have an affair to "get your needs met" instead of looking in the mirror to see what is lacking!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I'm done for now, but don't you wish you could just SAY that simply because it's the TRUTH? That's what a One does. They see the truth in most situations and it really pisses them off...lol!

Stillwed

Just for fun would you like to hear what a One's judging sounds like? Now don't try this at home, even if you are tempted!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, you're tired of this marriage huh? So what do you do about that? Do you tell me that you want a divorce? Do you make an appointment with a marriage counselor? Do you go to individual counseling to find out if the problem might lie in you? Do you do the dirty work of getting a lawyer and getting on with a split? NO! Oh, NO, YOU have an affair! Why? Because you are chicken. You are afraid to face yourself without ME. So you go off and have an affair to "get your needs met" instead of looking in the mirror to see what is lacking!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I'm done for now, but don't you wish you could just SAY that simply because it's the TRUTH? That's what a One does. They see the truth in most situations and it really pisses them off...lol!

Stillwed

MS: continued contact really prevents recovery. The WS remains stuck either in the affair, or in withdrawal. Until there is true cessation of contact, recovery is so difficult that Harley calls it impossible (like most absolutes, probably not true, but almost).