Just some musings, coming on the heels of a completely out-of-the-blue anxiety nightmare in which Dragon Lady was having a baby by my H. Brrrrr....<P>I'd been thinking about this for a while during all the betrayed/betrayer "who should do the work" discussions. Then I read Tired Lady's post the other day, and thought about something Susan Page says in HOW ONE OF YOU CAN BRING BOTH OF YOU TOGETHER: Being right is the booby prize. Being right just means you're right. And what does that get you?<P>If you're the betrayed, you're right. You are the one who was cheated on. But so what? So you're right. What does it get you? Then, you have to take the next step. You have to step back and look at yourself, look at the role you played in the marriage.<P>Sure, there are cases in which midlife crisis sets in, there are strange circumstances, or whatever. But in most cases, most of us have sins of either commission or omission that led to problems in the marriage.<P>Yeah, my H's relationship with Dragon Lady is ongoing. She called him at home last week when he was home sick. But it's certainly less intense than it was. Sure, since it bothered me so much he should have dropped it. But he didn't. So my choice has been to either b*tch about it or do some constructive work on the marriage. <P>And I think this is what we all have to do. We need to admit that it doesn't matter if we're right and the straying (or inconsiderate) spouse is wrong. The question is: What can we do to change (or save) the relationship. Somehow I think this is part of what Plan A is about. <P>Many people here who have been betrayed are upset because there hasn't been enough CONTRITION in the spouse. I read here over and over again that people want a verbal, continuous, admission of wrong, a statement of contrition. I think maybe that's hard for some people to do, even if they are contrite.<P>I don't speak from first-hand experience, so I am not really qualified to speak on this...but I wonder: What's to be gained by insisting on complete disclosure, breast-beating, etc. Is it possible to just "let it go"? To tear that page out of the book and just write a new one? Is hanging on to the mistrust and the resentment merely the booby prize?<P>Thoughts?

Oh, I have a HUGE problem with this!!!!!<P>I was one of those people who stopped the presses when anything happened and said "<B>who</B> did this?"... I couldn't go forward... and then I read this bumper sticker:<P><B>DON'T FIX THE BLAME, FIX THE PROBLEM</B><P>WOW, what a concept!<P>I don't even know what else to say to you, except that this is one of the most well-thought out posts I've ever read, and I needed it RIGHT NOW.<P>Thank you...

dazed,<P>This is a good post. I also have the Susan Page book..it is a good one.<P>Your thoughts echo what my friends were telling me last night - my H and I spend too much time obsessiong over "history" - what happened, when it happened, why it happened, ad infinitum.<P>Their suggestion was this: pretend you just met your H and you KNEW he had infidelity in his past...would you still like him and be attracted to him enough to want to date him??? Well, for me the answer is YES. Since my H wasn't here and since he won't forgive me, the answer must be NO. <P>I think this is related to the point you are trying to make.<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Thought provoking - and wise questions.<P>Just like going to court doesn't really bring justice, but it brings decisions.... so people can move past an event. <P>I think it is the same with a marriage. Being right is no better than being wrong - expecially in a marriage. <P>It is the consequence of unconditional love. You love someone and they may be a infidel, but you love them anyway.<P>Is it possible to tear the page out of the book and move on? I hope so. I really can't say yes at this point. Disclosure is NOT fun.<P>I thought I needed disclosure to really move on. but I guess I was wrong. I think the word TIME is the ultimate healer. I always thought it was only truth, but I am thinking now that it is truth and time.<P>

W's counselor who became our joint counselor made a statement that in general made a lot of sense "Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?"<P>I won't go into it here, but the last situation she applied this to was totally inappropriate, but in general, it's good advice....

Some revalations:<P>1. I was the betrayed<BR>2. I was the primary cause of the affair due to my attitude and inattentiveness to my W<BR>3. OM's marriage was going fine according to his W<BR>4. Since discovery I have found out much of what happened that day <one day stand>and it made me feel no better at all.<BR>5. I now make sure I let me W know when we need to talk about something and also make sure I let her know on a daily basis just how much I love her<BR>6. All of this added together makes for a marriage that is still together 6 months after discovery and seems to be getting stronger all the time.<P>Just some random thoughts from me....lol<P>R

Great post, Dazed. Something I believe applies to ALL relationships. I have some horrible memories of my <B>need</B> to be right ... and I'd trade my right arm to be able to go back and fix all the harm I did to my marriage.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P><BR>

I just put the Susan Page book on hold at the library. Sounds like I need it. I think this is a flaw of mine. I keep waiting for H to acknowlege how much pain this has caused me and to admit this relationship of his is inappropriate but HE JUST WONT DO IT! And I begining to think he wont stop it either. But we have made progress in our relationship over the past few weeks. I need to focus on that and keep working on us and quit focusing on them. But I want to be right too. How to let that go? Lora

What does being right have to do with love? its about pride- the antethesis of love- who cares.<BR>Yeah, we both screwed up- I wasnt attentive to my W, took her for granted, judgemental, non-communicative, etc....<BR>Just because I didnt have the affair dosent make me better- wanting to work on it with her makes US better- isnt that what matters? US?<BR>But, I do know the self-rightousness of being right- what did i win? i lost her - whoppee.

D&C,<BR>What you propose is what I have thought all along. I just wish that she would get over it and stop beating herself up in my behalf. I don't fault her because my reactions to those things that did not make her feel wanted and truly loved caused the behavior. I truly understand where she is coming from and don't blame her because she was relating to it as she understood it. It looked like I really didn't care when I really did. It is difficult to see the big picture sometimes. I am much better at reading her nonverbals now moreso than I was at the beginning. <P>I do want to know all the gory details to help me completely put it behind me. I need this so that I can feel the trust I so long to give her. I don't want any supicious behavior that results in her getting angry when I ask where she has been or where she is going. We had this at the beginning of our marriage.<P>As far as looking at myself, I have always looked at me first to see where I could have done something better. I know that half of the problem is my communicating to her in a meaningful way. Besides I can only change me and pray that the changes in me will be pleasing to her. If not, I need to change again until I get it right.<P>The right but also the wrong in the entire mix.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited December 27, 1999).]

Like Rob said, I'd like to go on with the rest of our life, but my H can't get over what he has done. I've forgiven him, but he can't accept the forgiveness and goes on to do more crap. His remorse is there but there is no repentance, ie changing his life for the better and avoiding giving me pain.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P><BR>

Rob:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I do want to know all the gory details to help me completely put it behind me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I guess this is what I don't understand. How do the gory details help you put it behind you? How do they generate trust?<P>I think this is my point....maybe these things DON'T foster trust. Maybe they just make it hurt more. <P>Why should it be impossible to tear that page out of the book of your marriage and start anew?<P>My therapist uses this approach a lot -- as if old patterns are cassette tapes we play, and I have been teaching myself to recognize an old tape, take it out and throw it away.<P>What do you have to lose?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Besides I can only change me and pray that the changes in me will be pleasing to her. If not, I need to change again until I get it right.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This sounds pretty self-involved. I don't see anything there about what SHE needs. You're right that you can only change yourself and what you do, but you can make those changes with an eye towards HER needs, rather than just a random shot in the dark.<P>I just wonder...<P>Suppose we stopped asking for repentance? Suppose we said, "It's over now. Let's start from scratch. Let's take the chance."<P>Would it be better?

D&C,<BR>Knowing all the gory details is where we started out with in our marriage. She had been with a lot of guys before me. She told me what I perceive to be all the gory details about those relationships. It helped me to get over the fact that she had several more physical relationships than I have. I have had only two counting her.<P>The changes I would be making are for HER needs not mine. My needs are met when her needs are met. I know this sounds weird but it goes back to my faith in God. My reward will be in heaven. I help anyone and particularly those closest to me the most. I get my satisfation out of knowing that I have done my very best for the other person. To be totally honest, the only thing she really had to do was know how much I truly love her and for her to accept me as I was until I was able to make the necessary changes to remove the irritants.<P>I have had to make those changes from studying her because she was not able to articulate some of them. It was like pulling teeth without numbing on my part.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Suppose we stopped asking for repentance? Suppose we said, "It's over now. Let's start from scratch. Let's take the chance."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have asked for this and get the no it won't work because I am tired. My armour is full of holes. I need to move on. This was what she wrote in a letter to me this morning. I haven't given up hope because I will always be there for her. God brought her into my life for a reason and I thank Him and her for what she has done for me.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited December 27, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited December 27, 1999).]

my feelings exactly- lets put it all behind us and strt from scratch<BR>what do you have to lose?

Dazed,<P>I hope you don't mind me coming in your thread. <BR>I wanted to say that you made some very good points here, especially about disclosure. Knowing all the gory details didn't help me in my healing(I should say isn't helping me). It only adds to the visuals and heart ache. Arik is a talker, he likes to get it all out. He is still adding to the gory details in bits and pieces from time to time.<BR>I have a problem though in our case, about letting it go at this point. He still feels that minimal personal contact is O.K. and that hurts a lot.<BR>I have no problem letting go of what happened in the past, it is just what is happening in the present that I have a problem with.<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole<P><BR>

Hmmm...lemme try to explain how I feel about just starting over...with no further disclosure or admissions from H.<P>I've been trying to convince myself that just my "knowing" is good enough...that maybe H doesn't need to tell me about anything other than he's already told me.<BR>But, it ain't working.<P>Over the past 20 months or so, I have been trying to face up to my shortcomings and to change negative aspects of my behavior. It hasn't been easy, especially considering that for most of that time, I have felt as though I had totally lost the love of my H.<BR>I feel like I have gone through hell and back to save our marriage and regain my H's love.<P>My H wants me to believe that I have just blown everything out of proportion. He does not want to be put "on trial" for what he did to us, (but it's OK for me to go through "trial"). This sounds like it's vengeful, but I don't intend it to be. It's just that, as long as he acts like screwing around is something to be shrugged off and as long as he continues to lie to me about his relationships with other women, our marriage will never become what it should be. He deserves a wife who will do whatever it takes to build a good marriage with him--even if the openess and honesty is painful to her; I deserve no less from him. When he is ready to face the pain of what he's done and when he is able to let down that wall that he's erected between us, THEN we can have a truly happy marriage. THEN, I can start to regain trust in him. I do <B>not</B> want to go through the rest of my life being unable to leave town for a few days or even a day without wondering if he's taking advantage of the opportunity to boink somebody.<BR> I am committed to working on our marriage for as long as it takes, but I will never stop expecting the complete truth from him. I need to know that he is not protecting some OW from me...putting her ahead of me. I will not play second fiddle any longer.<P> I'm remorseful when I do wrong things, so why can't he be? Yeah, I know...that ego thing. Can't admit that he feels terrible about what he did. All I can do is try to make him feel safe enough to eventually break down that wall.<P>Gee, I don't feel like I made any sense.<P>I AM grateful that my H is showing that he does still love me. This morning, a guy at the cafe said, upon seeing my new wedding band, "Well, either Sweetpea must have been a mighty good girl this year, or (H's name) must have been mighty bad.." Well, I hope H gave me the ring because I've been a good girl , and not just to alleviate his guilt.<P>Anyway, still gotta work on those "in love" feelings...

Ah, but Sweetpea, you ARE vengeful. You're carrying around rage that's 13 years old. That's not constructive.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He does not want to be put "on trial" for what he did to us, (but it's OK for me to go through "trial").<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And that's where it's so hard for everyone to let go. It's "tit for tat." And that's why I asked the question. You got the booby prize. You are right. You are the wronged woman. But what else do you have? You have a H who feels there's no way you'll ever trust him, and if he has the name, he might as well play the game. He feels you're irrational, so he won't listen to you about Cafe Woman or anyone else.<P>So...where has 13 years of rage gotten you?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> This sounds like it's vengeful, but I don't intend it to be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know you don't. But it does. And you are.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It's just that, as long as he acts like screwing around is something to be shrugged off and as long as he continues to lie to me about his relationships with other women, our marriage will never become what it should be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Based on what little is in your profile, and what I know about Cafe Woman, it sounds like perhaps you DON'T have perspective. Is he acting like screwing around should be shrugged off, or does he just feel that the statute of limitations has expired? Maybe after 13 years it IS time to move on.<P>Look, Sweetpea. I really do think my H had some kind of sexual encounter with Dragon Lady. But that was then (Summer 1998). This is now. I don't want to know the details; what would it get me? So what would knowing details about what your H did 13 years ago get you?<P>The lies about relationships with women are another thing. It's rude and inconsiderate. My H is still in touch with Dragon Lady, and he doesn't tell me, even though I've told him that the lies and secrecy are a big part of the problem. But he knows that I don't like Dragon Lady, he knows she makes me uncomfortable, and he doesn't feel "safe" telling me about her. And I guess he's right in that.<P>In a perfect world, he would say, "Dear, if Dragon Lady makes you uncomfortable, I won't see her any more, because your comfort is the most important thing to me." In a perfect world, he wouldn't have lost his wedding ring right when he started hanging out with her. In a perfect world, he'd wear the new ring I bought him last Christmas. <P>It's not a perfect world. I have two choices: Live with him harmoniously in the world I live in (in which Plan A has brought him much closer to me and less close to Dragon Lady), or continue to gripe about things he doesn't do.<P>I choose "A".

D&C,<BR> Actually, I no longer think so much about the fling from over 13 years ago; I think he has told me the truth about that, and I've been able to work through that.<P> You and I are a lot alike, with your Dragon Lady and my Cafe Woman. Neither of our Hs will admit to anything with them, but you and I both feel that there was definitely more to the relationships than mere friendship. The difference is, I think, that I did put my foot down a while back and tell my H that I wanted him nowhere around her. Before that, I had told him that I didn't want him around her unless I was with him. Of course, he showed darned little respect for my feelings and went there without me anyway. That was when I had my melt-down and walked out on him until he finally admitted cheating with the STD Tramp.<P> About a month ago, I told him that if he wanted to go to her restaurant without me and she was there, I would not raise he!! at him about it. As far as I know, he has not gone there. I'm thinking that he understands that I no longer tolerate disrespect very well at all!<BR> I'm Plan A-ing him to death and will continue to do so. I really don't have any wish to "punish" my H; I think that the problem is that I see his apparent lack of remorse over cheating as an indicator of his lack of love for me. Make sense? If this is (or remains) the case, I don't WANT to stay married to him. I deserve <B>more</B>!! Yes, I <B>do</B> love my H very much. No, I will not "settle" for just being married to him even though his heart may be elsewhere.<P>Of course, I'm trying to understand that he probably <B>does</B> feel remorse, but thinks that it would be showing weakness to admit it to me (he's such a macho-man!). In that case, he's playing "games", even if he doesn't realize it. He's keeping his little "wall" up, and this wall must come tumbling down if we are to have a truly happy and fulfilling marriage. I've been guilty of erecting little walls, too, over the years, but I've been working to tear my walls down. Is it too much to expect him to work on tearing his walls down?<P>Anyway, I'm not giving up on him. I was shocked that he bought the new wedding band for me (gorgeous...3 rows of diamonds totalling 3 carats), and I broke down and cried when he gave it to me. What meant the most to me, though, were the two little tears I caught running down his cheeks. I think we're on the way to healing, but there is lots of work to be done yet. He did not "propose" to me again or say anything about renewing our vows, along with giving me the ring. He knows that I want this, but I only want it if <B>he</B> wants it. At some point, it may come to the point where I'll bring it up again, but I will not pressure him into it. Either he does this willingly or not at all. Yes, I do expect him to prove his love for me, but he has to WANT to prove it. The ring is a happy beginning, but I would have been just as happy with the proposal and a promise of a ring to come later, when we could better afford it.<P>I'm certainly not demanding (to him) that he show remorse. I'm just hoping that we can get our relationship to the point where we are both totally open and honest with our feelings. Right now, I'm having to "sit" on my feelings, and I think that he's still not telling me the truth about Cafe Woman. I'm sure that he's also not telling me the truth about the extent of his cheating, but Cafe Woman is the biggest threat to me.

Yes, Sweetpea, I do know where you're coming from. But you know, we can't make people behave in the ways we want them to -- certainly not adults. Sometimes we have to look at what they do through their intentions rather than through what we would like them to do.<P>I've never wanted to walk out over Dragon Lady -- ever....mostly because I know that I'm insecure by nature, and that it's possible that his insensitivity and her predatory nature led to a situation that looked like something it wasn't. You see, for years my H had NO friends of EITHER gender, and of course I felt secure when he was home all the time.<P>Oh, my H has offered in the past to not see Dragon Lady any more. But it was always either angry ("Obviously I just can't have any friends") or it involved quitting his job (which was not acceptable). And he does try to finesse the situation. Dragon Lady called him at home last week when he was home sick. I'm sure she didn't know I was home. There was no good business reason for her to call him at home, even to see how he was feeling. He has a wife to care for him, thank you very much.<P>This is what I deal with.<P>But now I feel more secure about my position in his life. I'M the one he spent the week in the Caribbean with, not her. I'M the one he sleeps next to at night, not her.<P>I did not give him sh*t about her calling, and as soon as he got off the phone, he came down and kissed me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think that the problem is that I see his apparent lack of remorse over cheating as an indicator of his lack of love for me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's how you see it. Ten bucks says that's not how he sees it, and most men aren't very capable of empathy. Men like to fix problems and move on...it's their nature. They're not introspective, for the most part. He probably can't understand why you're not content with the efforts he's made.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Of course, I'm trying to understand that he probably does feel remorse, but thinks that it would be showing weakness to admit it to me (he's such a macho-man!). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Uh....doesn't that qualify as a "disrespectful judgment?" How can you know what he thinks? He may very well think he's made amends.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In that case, he's playing "games", even if he doesn't realize it. He's keeping his little "wall" up, and this wall must come tumbling down if we are to have a truly happy and fulfilling marriage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Another disrespectful judgment. Why says you get to make all the rules? He may not be "playing a game." He may figure it's water under the bridge, let's move on already. <P>When I brought up Dragon Lady months after previous discussions, my H would say, "I thought we'd resolved this months ago." After every discussion, I'd feel better for a while, and then something would trigger it again. But in his mind, it was "resolved."<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I've been guilty of erecting little walls, too, over the years, but I've<BR> been working to tear my walls down. Is it too much to expect him to work on tearing<BR> his walls down?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Maybe. When you change your behavior in a relationship, you can't dictate the counterchanges in the other person.<P>I'm coming to the conclusion that men and women often have different communication styles. Your big source of resentment right now is that your H doesn't communicate the way you do -- in every aspect of your relationship, from the rings, to what marriage means, to a new proposal, whatever it is...you want to make the rules. You want to decide how the relationship will work. This is pretty controlling stuff.<P>I know. I've been there. I watch myself constantly.<P>Your H will not tell you the truth about Cafe Woman because he doesn't feel safe doing so. My H will not discuss Dragon Lady with me because he doesn't feel safe doing so. The best I can do is be as devoted as I can, so he doesn't NEED the nurturing she provided him when I was falling down on the job.<P>She knows a lot of people in his industry, and with his job history, she's a good reference for him to have. I can't take that away from him. But I'm trying not to dwell on Dragon Lady, or the new wedding ring on the nightstand for a year...I'm trying to focus on the major improvements we've made (I've made) in our day-to-day relationship.<P>And I feel much better doing so.<P>Maybe you can too?

Dazed and confused,<BR> I really appreciate your thoughts on this. I feel like I need more info on this plan of yours, nondisclosure plan A, is what you called it right? We had a pretty good Xmas, and once again I had my hopes up, but today I came home from work and no H. I'm afraid of what I will say when he gets here. NO LB, No LB.... I truely beleive that he doesn't get how much this is hurting me and our marriage. If I'm at work, how does it hurt me for him to spend time with her right? I can see how getting closer to him will help us and am working hard to get your attitude, but it still hurts so much. Lora