Today was our family's first day of skiing this year. We met some friends that the kids ski with. The wife was there with another mom friend. Her H worked with me for over 10 years and is a very good friend of mine. He also was with my H when he met the Brazen Hussy. To this day, I don't believe he (friend) knows what happened. Anyway, we have a long very close history with these people. Before this year it wouldn't have even crossed my mind to even have a second of concern. But when I left with my little one, leaving H and other kids, I said "Do I have to be concerned about leaving you with X?" He chuckled and looked surprised, then abruptly became serious and said "Of course not." I said, "I know, but I can't assume anything, anymore." He just gave me a little pat and that was the end of it.<P>So I was thinking about all of it on my drive home. It is not that I can't trust him, since March he has not said or done one single thing that I could even question. I believe he is horrified by what he did, can not believe he did it and never intends to do anything like it in the future. And that is the snag. Intends. Even though he may be more trustworthy now than ever, and I really believe that, on the other hand, I have no idea if I can trust him.<P>Does that make any sense. My current trust is real and I honestly do not think I will experience infidelity again.<P>However, I really have no idea if he is trustworthy and I doubt if I ever will again.<P>It is hard enough to explain this, and I would find it interesting if any betrayers can understand this and can accept this in the context of their own relationships.<P>I can trust, I do trust, I fully expect to continue to trust....but I can no longer be certain he is trustworthy.<P>So when betrayers ask the betrayed to trust and when betrayeds ask themselves if they can trust, I would answer yes, in time, you can trust again.<P>However, I have learned that I absolutely can not control another person's thoughts or actions. I can barely influence them. So I really can not deem a person trustworthy. Their trustworthiness is within them and is a continual choice that only they (not I) can control.<P>Therefore I can choose to trust, but I can not guarantee that the one I choose to trust is trustworthy.<P>OK...maybe this isn't breakthrough, but I never quite thought of it this way before. Tell me what you think.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

As always, you seem to grasp the truth so well! I know exactly what your saying! I have the same emotions, he feels horrified about what he did and he acts as though he would never ever do it again. Yet, I still wonder, I guess the hard thing about this that I have talked with him about. He understands that I am not so unsure about how things are with him NOW, I worry about the future, 3 years, 5 years, whatever, will it happen again?<BR>I never thought it would happen to us, this terrible thing. Yet in some way I wouldn't change a thing, it's really done some wonderful things for us, this horrible event. I think the way you say things is great, that you have this true grasp of the situation and will take your words to heart! God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P>

Maybe I have felt a twinge of guilt when I have a doubt about trust.<P>Somehow, the more I think about it, this thought brings a certain freedom.<P>I can actively trust...and I can make our home and relationship as warm and as safe as humanly possible. But I can not guarantee the outcome...so I might as well not worry about what is out of my control.<P>Maybe it is a little bit of a LB to have even verbalized that second of concern, but on the other hand, it is wise to lovingly look out for each other. And doesn't a little hint of jealously or concern (not distrust or paranioa) show care for the relationship? Or am I wrong? My H is 100% not jealous and I would have found it almost flattering for him to have a twinge of care or concern about me and another man.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

hi fhl, hope you have more snow up your way than we have here right now!<BR>The trust issue....did you ask the question of him because you wanted the reassurance-just had a needy moment? Or maybe you asked because you were 'reminding' him that he needs to be on his best behavior with the other women around/about? <BR>I have asked almost the same question...and it really not that I do not trust, it is that more that I am reminding him that trust is fragile. Careful, my trust is intact, but still needs some more time to be well-rooted. If a big wind comes along, that trust could just blow right over in a flash...so keep the weather calm!! <BR>

Hi FHL -<P>Long time.....no talk!!! Merry Christmas to you!!!<P>Once again, you seem to have thought it all out and have come to some great conclusions.<P>I don't think that how you said it to H is a LB.....not at all!!! Not for YOUR situation...meaning that you and H have not had a difficult time with accusing and defensiveness back and forth between you. In situations where that is the case - then it may have come across as a LB.....does that seem right?<P>Certain "things" will be triggers especially when first encountered after the affair.....in this instance - the male friend. It is a "part" of the affair scenario and therefore you and H are both aware of it and I think that address it (as perfectly as you did!) was a wonderful thing. It showed the communication and understanding that is going on between you.<P>To not have said anything would have opened the door - just a crack - to allowing resentments, tenseness, etc. to build up because of emotions, thoughts that are left unexpressed. I think that it's much better to get it out in the open and by his acknowledgement of your concern.....it did ease your mind somewhat.<P>You are absolutely right, that none of us can control or predict what another will or will not do!!! Heck, most of us don't even know what we will do OURSELVES,sometimes!!! <P>Trust is an instinct.....it is not a constant!! It is not something that can consciously be given and taken back - it just comes or goes according to the circumstances!! For example...my brother is an excellant driver - in all kinds of weather and conditions.....if there is ice on the road and he wants my car - would I have complete trust that nothing would happen? NO!! I would be apprehensive - it's gut reaction to the circumstances!!<P>Would I trust him more than another for this scenario....YES!! But Does that mean that I trust him? Or just more than someone else?<P>Do you see what I mean?<P>I see it that overall you trust your H, only in certain circumstances would that instinct change......even for only a moment!! You really can't control it - at least I don't think so!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

Actually this little exchange got me to think. The event in itself was all but meaningless.<P>cl put it well. When I do bring something up, it is more like a reminder that I do trust him...don't muck it up...rather than lack of trust or feeling threatened.<P>I do not believe he would do anything inappropriate with this friend. Actually her H and I are better friends, my H and her H are better friends and she and I are better friends than she and my H are, if you can keep up with all that. Before this year, however, it would never even cross my mind in my wildest dreams. Now little thoughts like this go across my mind and out of it, kind of like the screen of a heart moniter.<P>Sheba...I agree and disagree about whether or not you can choose to trust. In the beginning we should have our heads examined if we trusted. I mean the risk is too great. I think our inability to trust also is almost primal in the beginning. Given time and good behavior, however, I do think you can choose to trust...or maybe it is more like you can choose to work on trusting. People that hang on to bitterness may think they will never trust because either they think the spouse doesn't deserve trust or there is a little of revenge thing going on.<P>Of course some spouses really can not be trusted. I am speaking only about partners that have given no reason for distrust for a very long time.<P>But, who knows? <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL,<BR>I think your first post on this thread made more sense than ever. <P>You CAN trust. That is something you can control. Whether or not the person you trust is trustworthy is something you cannot control. <P>I am not so sure your husband is trustworthy, either. That doesn't mean that you aren't a trusting person. Did that make sense? It isn't the issue of YOUR trust, it is the issue of you loving and extending trust despite the fact that you cannot control what another person does with the trust you give. <P>So the "trust" issue is a mute point. Trustworthy is another issue - and something you can do nothing about. I think you have the "trust" part licked. - or almost. <P>The fact that a thought of infidelity never would have entered your mind previously, and now it does - isn't related to the trust issue. Because you definitely have the ability to trust, and choose to trust.<P>When you first found out about the infidelity, I'm sure that telephones were a trigger, looking at your husband's dirty laundry was a trigger, seeing the gas gauge was a trigger - things that somehow could be a trigger to the infidelity. With time, and with exposure and healing - those things probably are no longer a trigger. <P>You need to give yourself time and experiences that are replaced with these friends again, for this H to not be a trigger to the infidelity.<P>Christmas Eve - we went to a family gathering, and one SIL brought out the "newlywed game." A lot of the questions were triggers for me. <P>By Christmas night the triggers were in the past again. My husband asked what changed for me to lose that sadness again. He didn't understand - because he hadn't changed his behavior at all. But my sadness was lifted by Christmas night.<P>I told him it was the triggers. I told him about the triggers and how they make the pain new again. I told him the absence of the triggers puts the pain in the past. <P>I'm sure that the more you associate with the friends, the less power that trigger has to freshen the pain of infidelity.<P>Good thread FHL, as usual.

Thank you TnT...I truly value your opinion. I'll get that chance...the wife actually left with her mom friend and my H took her kids home.<P>He stopped in for a moment and the H (my old friend) and wife invited our family for New Years Eve. Acually we have spend several with them over the years. It will be nice. We both wanted a quiet time with our families, so together will be fun.<P>My H used to "go out for a few beers" with the other H once in a while. Right before the affair, maybe he went out every few weeks. I really believe my friend did not know what was going on. My H has never went out with him since, although he has called many times. We have done things as couples and as families. My friend started his own business, so he's been busy anyway. Sometimes I wished I could just be honest with him, but since no one knows and I want to protect H's integrity, I haven't. As time passes, it doesn't matter as much. These have been very good friends over the years and there is no need to interject weirdness into it.<P>I know all about those triggers which seem to be independent of my H's behaviors. Things have been really good for about six weeks.<P>I am still concerned about you...stay safe.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

wow, this is a great string and I can't believe I missed it originally...please see my post as 'alias' to know what is going on with lizzie...<P>I posted as alias because in a moment of 'trust' I shared this site with my h., who later began teasing me about becoming one of 'those people with no REAL friends who live on the 'net".<P>thanks for posting these thoughts on trust...they are so on target as to where I am right now...<P>see you at the Bible Study forum,<P>liz<P>------------------<BR><BR>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR>

Greetings!<P>Of course you know, I'm a betrayer. My opinion about "the trust issue" is this:<P>Men are men- universally. Men are sexual creatures and will always find women (other than their spouses) attractive, even sexy. This is not because of a singular affliction, nor is it because they're satin's advocates. We're just made that way. Sexual temptation is something always there.<P>Dealing with sexual temptation is easy for any man of mature stature. There are no emotions involved, only hormones. I would say if your H is mature (which I'm sure he is), then this should not cause you worry.<P>The other reason a man might have an affair is to fulfill an inner need. This "inner need" is often subconscious. I remember during my affair I thought I knew myself well. I thought I was on top of things, but in reality I was way over my head. In my heart I knew I loved my wife and wanted to be with her (and kids). So what was motivating me to do what I was doing? Was it something special about OW? Not hardly. But I could never reason this out. Only now have I come to realize my problem. In the past I'd had numerous female friends that I became too close with. With these friends I was never sexual / physical, just enjoyed having them care about me. (and people warned me, but I insisted my relationship with them was benign) Well, it wasn't. In reality it was an inner-need to feel cared for by women. Don't get me wrong, my wife seriously out did all of these women in all categories. That wasn't the problem. I was always looking subconsciously..if that makes any sense at all. Boy was I screwed up!<P><BR>So after that long dissertation, I guess my point is if you and your H feel comfortable you've identified and resolved the problem that made him betray, then you're in good shape. I guess for me, just realizing I had the problem and identifying the root cause enabled me to heal. Hope you guys work it out and you find peace.<P>- BBD

FHL,<P>My answer is that trust is a gift you give and trustworthiness is a gift the other person gives you back, and they are both CHOICES.<P>People are human, after all, on BOTH sides - truster and trustee...<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

BBD....Nice to hear from you and your point of view is enlightening. I am happy to hear you discovered your "root cause" and corrected the vunerability. Kind of funny, my H used to be a Root Cause Evaluator.<P>In many ways your situation was like my H. I believe he never considered leaving us or even seriously wanted to be involved with someone else. My H's OW was a woman even older than I, with a history of affairs with many men. She drank heavily, smoke and swore (who would think)...none of which my H found attractive. He didn't respect her, although I do think he felt a little sorry for her. I am in reasonable shape and up until this year didn't even look my age, so I don't think she had anything on me. Yet all it took was a drunken kiss.<P>So why did he do it? He's not very introspective and although he is 100% remorseful and horrified by his own behavior, I don't think he even could give a good answer. I think it was a flukey thing with a rare slice of opportunity at a vunerable time around his 40th birthday. So I do think it was within him and had very little to do with me. That flies in the face of the fill each other needs thing, doesn't it? <P>I think we have addressed any vunerability we left ourselves open to. We were a little too much of a family unit and had gotten away from being a couple on our own. Although we rarely argued, since we both avoid conflict, we were prone to leaving things unresolved and that led to little misinterpretations that became somewhat significant.<P>Still, on any given day if you would have asked me, I would have said I was leading a blessed and almost charmed life and I would have bet anything my H would have said the same thing.<P>I'm not sure he had dissatisfaction with life in general, marriage included and that lead to the affair...or the OW met and kissed him and he suddenly became dissatisfied to justify what he was doing. Kind of the chicken and the egg.<P>Although I am only too happy to leave 1999 behind as the year from hell, I do believe our marriage is better than ever and more honest and real than ever. If I could erase the infidelity of course I would, but it did have a purpose. It came at tremendous personal cost, but at least the pain and heartache and grey hairs were not entirely in vain.<P>I pray you both learned your lessons early in these early years in your marriage and you'll go the distance with a solid loving honest relationship.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Wow<BR>You just tackled something that I have pondered since last November. Even right after the affair I trusted again. But there was always something eating away at me. You hit the nail on the head. Thank you<BR>Nancy